The Official 2019 Cincinnati Reds Thread

Monclova Steve

Well-known member
So you're saying we should be ok with bullpen guys sucking?
Like you and wolves82, I have no idea what point he is trying to make. It's a long word salad that says most bullpens have good periods and bad periods; and that's just the nature of things in baseball. In addition, anyone who takes pitches when Garrett throws pitches out of the strike zone might get a hit or a walk. Really? Who knew?
I think practically anyone who knows baseball understands these things. Why? Because they're OBVIOUS.

BTW, 14Red.......I can let you in on a little secret here. Don''t tell anyone, but Garrett's slider looks like it's going to be a strike when the hitter has to start his swing. Then -- when the batter is committed -- it dives just out of the strike zone, causing the hitter to swing and miss. Why does that happen? Because he has one of the best sliders in MLB! It's easy to say "just don't swing" when watching from home on the couch.
 

Monclova Steve

Well-known member
Now -- as far as the Reds' bullpen is concerned -- I think wolves82 has it right that they aren't going to be drawing any big conclusions during the rest of this season other than getting a "look see" at various pitchers for next year. Spring training will determine how this all plays out.
I will say, though, that Bell is not looking at the role of "closer" the same way that many more traditional managers do. He is more of the school that says to use your most effective relievers in the toughest situations. Of course, he's been somewhat hamstrung this year with a lack of numbers of truly effective guys down there, so Iglesias' performance in save situations (compared to basically sucking when pitching in non-save situations) limited Bell's approach.
Iglesias' role next year, not to mention how he works out, will be very interesting.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
Now -- as far as the Reds' bullpen is concerned -- I think wolves82 has it right that they aren't going to be drawing any big conclusions during the rest of this season other than getting a "look see" at various pitchers for next year. Spring training will determine how this all plays out.
I will say, though, that Bell is not looking at the role of "closer" the same way that many more traditional managers do. He is more of the school that says to use your most effective relievers in the toughest situations. Of course, he's been somewhat hamstrung this year with a lack of numbers of truly effective guys down there, so Iglesias' performance in save situations (compared to basically sucking when pitching in non-save situations) limited Bell's approach.
Iglesias' role next year, not to mention how he works out, will be very interesting.
Iglesias has struggled when used in the highest leveraged situations. Bringing him in with 2 on and 1 out in the 8th facing the meat of the lineup and he gets beat. What does that tell us? Maybe Iglesias' past success as a closer was because he didn't have to always face the best hitters in a tough situation. That would suggest that he isn't as good as we want him to be or thought he was.
Iglesias has 4 above average pitches but he lacks an elite put away type pitch. That repertoire screams starter.

Stephenson has an elite slider and nothing else really. That screams late inning reliever. We need to find out if he can handle the pressure of the 9th inning.
 

wolves82

Active member
Raisel had a couple injury issues when starting. He was coming back from injury and working out of the pen during the season to get back into shape and get some live innings. They liked what they saw from him as a reliever.

I posted non-stop at the time that he needed to be put back in the rotation. He was the best pitcher on the staff, has 4 quality pitches and a variety of arm angles, and he was being wasted in the pen pitching meaningless innings for a team winning 70ish games. Of course, 14red told me I was wrong, and the closer position was more important for a 70 win team.

Bottom line, I agree with Indiandad, and have been saying it for years, he needs to be in the rotation. Even now, with our much improved rotation, I would say that. But it won't happen.
 

Red14

Member
Raisel had a couple injury issues when starting. He was coming back from injury and working out of the pen during the season to get back into shape and get some live innings. They liked what they saw from him as a reliever.

I posted non-stop at the time that he needed to be put back in the rotation. He was the best pitcher on the staff, has 4 quality pitches and a variety of arm angles, and he was being wasted in the pen pitching meaningless innings for a team winning 70ish games. Of course, 14red told me I was wrong, and the closer position was more important for a 70 win team.

Bottom line, I agree with Indiandad, and have been saying it for years, he needs to be in the rotation. Even now, with our much improved rotation, I would say that. But it won't happen.
Funny how you guys forget. One of the reasons he could not be a starter is because he could not live up to the workload. Look, there are some guys today who simple can't take the ball and go 100+ pitches. They BREAK DOWN!!!! That's a whole other topic with how kids are groomed to pitch today, and we can discuss that anther time.
These are the same issues that Aroldis Chapman had, same thing with Michael Lorenzen. Both started out as starters and they got hurt. If you can't start, then you become a relief pitcher. It's not necessarily that he's more important as a closer, he simply could not take the workload.

And yes, on a rare occasion, you are right, it won't happen. He can't be a starter, end of story.
 

Red14

Member
Iglesias has struggled when used in the highest leveraged situations. Bringing him in with 2 on and 1 out in the 8th facing the meat of the lineup and he gets beat. What does that tell us? Maybe Iglesias' past success as a closer was because he didn't have to always face the best hitters in a tough situation. That would suggest that he isn't as good as we want him to be or thought he was.
Iglesias has 4 above average pitches but he lacks an elite put away type pitch. That repertoire screams starter.

Stephenson has an elite slider and nothing else really. That screams late inning reliever. We need to find out if he can handle the pressure of the 9th inning.
This may be true for Iglesias, but he's tried starting not once, but twice, and got hurt because he can't handle the workload. Been there done that. He's a relief pitcher.
 

Red14

Member
Like you and wolves82, I have no idea what point he is trying to make. It's a long word salad that says most bullpens have good periods and bad periods; and that's just the nature of things in baseball. In addition, anyone who takes pitches when Garrett throws pitches out of the strike zone might get a hit or a walk. Really? Who knew?
I think practically anyone who knows baseball understands these things. Why? Because they're OBVIOUS.

BTW, 14Red.......I can let you in on a little secret here. Don''t tell anyone, but Garrett's slider looks like it's going to be a strike when the hitter has to start his swing. Then -- when the batter is committed -- it dives just out of the strike zone, causing the hitter to swing and miss. Why does that happen? Because he has one of the best sliders in MLB! It's easy to say "just don't swing" when watching from home on the couch.
And here's a little secret for you, early this year, when Garrett was having some success, there was little history on him. Now that the league has seen him for a half season, batters know that he's iffy spotty his slider, so you sit on the fastball and it's very straight, and very hittable. That's why he struggles. He knows he can't get people out with the fastball, so he overthrows the slider and if it's not perfect, he walks people.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
This may be true for Iglesias, but he's tried starting not once, but twice, and got hurt because he can't handle the workload. Been there done that. He's a relief pitcher.
Why the hell didn't Bailey go to the pen then? He got hurt and stayed on as a starter.

Iglesias was a young kid who developed shoulder fatigue.
Now he is fully mature at 29. He should build his arm strength and endurance in the offseason and be prepared to start next spring.
 

Red14

Member
Why the hell didn't Bailey go to the pen then? He got hurt and stayed on as a starter.

Iglesias was a young kid who developed shoulder fatigue.
Now he is fully mature at 29. He should build his arm strength and endurance in the offseason and be prepared to start next spring.
HOMER BAILEY THREW TWO NO HITTERS, WAS AN ESTABLISHED STARTER!!! Are you flippin' kidding me right now? I semi expect this from Monclova, wolves and some of the others on here, but you Indian, you seem like you know a little about baseball. From '09 to '14 Bailey started 20,19, 22, 23, 33, 32 and 23 games. He was an entrenched starter....Iglesias started 16 games in '15 and 5 games in '16 before breaking down. Absolutely no comparison.
 

wolves82

Active member
HOMER BAILEY THREW TWO NO HITTERS, WAS AN ESTABLISHED STARTER!!! Are you flippin' kidding me right now? I semi expect this from Monclova, wolves and some of the others on here, but you Indian, you seem like you know a little about baseball. From '09 to '14 Bailey started 20,19, 22, 23, 33, 32 and 23 games. He was an entrenched starter....Iglesias started 16 games in '15 and 5 games in '16 before breaking down. Absolutely no comparison.
You don't see the lunacy of your position? You clearly posted earlier: "Both started out as starters and they got hurt. If you can't start, then you become a relief pitcher."

Then you say Homer Bailey is an exception because he threw no-hitters, and he was established as a starter? News Flash: He only had two full injury free seasons, according to your own numbers. 30-33 starts is a full season. The years with 20, 19, 22, 23 and 23 starts, he missed a third of each season due to injury. Why was he not sent to the pen?

Kershaw has also been on the DL for long stints every year. Shouldn't he be put in the bullpen, according to your flawed logic? The truth of the matter is that the Reds and every team make decisions about where they think the pitcher will be more effective. It has nothing to do with them "handling the load".

Iglesias is far more physically mature and strong now, that is why he stays healthier. I agree with Indiandad - he belongs in the rotation.
 

Red14

Member
You don't see the lunacy of your position? You clearly posted earlier: "Both started out as starters and they got hurt. If you can't start, then you become a relief pitcher."

Then you say Homer Bailey is an exception because he threw no-hitters, and he was established as a starter? News Flash: He only had two full injury free seasons, according to your own numbers. 30-33 starts is a full season. The years with 20, 19, 22, 23 and 23 starts, he missed a third of each season due to injury. Why was he not sent to the pen?

Kershaw has also been on the DL for long stints every year. Shouldn't he be put in the bullpen, according to your flawed logic? The truth of the matter is that the Reds and every team make decisions about where they think the pitcher will be more effective. It has nothing to do with them "handling the load".

Iglesias is far more physically mature and strong now, that is why he stays healthier. I agree with Indiandad - he belongs in the rotation.
Rasiel Iglesias isn't a starting pitcher. I'll side with the Reds. I think they know best. Homer Bailey is a starting pitcher.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
And here's a little secret for you, early this year, when Garrett was having some success, there was little history on him. Now that the league has seen him for a half season, batters know that he's iffy spotty his slider, so you sit on the fastball and it's very straight, and very hittable. That's why he struggles. He knows he can't get people out with the fastball, so he overthrows the slider and if it's not perfect, he walks people.
Hogwash.
Garrett's percentage of balls in play is DOWN 11% from the previous season.
He also K's 33.3% of the batters he faces.

A pitcher you strikes out a third
Are you guys enjoying Bauer ?
lol
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
maybe

For how long, do you think ? He doesn't seem to be helping his cause for Abitration year 4 in 2020.


Our pitchers miss him. He's a better pitching coach than Wiley.

Bauer helped fill the bullpen brain-drain void when Mickey got hired away to manage the Mets.
 

Red14

Member
maybe

For how long, do you think ? He doesn't seem to be helping his cause for Abitration year 4 in 2020.


Our pitchers miss him. He's a better pitching coach than Wiley.

Bauer helped fill the bullpen brain-drain void when Mickey got hired away to manage the Mets.
One of his bad starts, in Washington, it was stated he was tipping his pitches. I know he's a different cat and doesn't necessarily adhere to normal pitching ideas, but if just works with Derek Johnson, it may make a difference. At this point we're not going anywhere, so if he wants to tinker, now's the time. Not ready to bail on him just yet.
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
But in short stints this season, Iglesias has been good, as well at Lorenzen, Hughes, Garrett and most of our bullpen. Heck, even Peralta was decent for awhile. So my point is and if you look around, most teams have had ups and downs with their bullpens, it's the nature of the beast. That's why a guy like Chapman is so special.
Lol
 

Red14

Member
maybe

For how long, do you think ? He doesn't seem to be helping his cause for Abitration year 4 in 2020.


Our pitchers miss him. He's a better pitching coach than Wiley.

Bauer helped fill the bullpen brain-drain void when Mickey got hired away to manage the Mets.
The Reds will be on the hook for Bauer for probably $17-$20 mill in 2020. Even with his struggles recently, for a one year commit of a guy of his history, it's a good deal. Now the Reds would never want to talk multi-year deal with him. But he IS under contract for the Reds in 2020. I feel that's a good thing. My guess is he really needs the off season to get his head, emotional state right.
 

Gh0st

Well-known member
Why the hell didn't Bailey go to the pen then? He got hurt and stayed on as a starter.

Iglesias was a young kid who developed shoulder fatigue.
Now he is fully mature at 29. He should build his arm strength and endurance in the offseason and be prepared to start next spring.
Because Bailey threw a hissy fit when they talked about moving him to the bullpen. After that, he was better off injured or riding the bench.
 

wolves82

Active member
Looking to the off-season a bit. If the Reds are trying to decide on which middle infielder to re-sign/retain, the correct answer is "keep Iglesias, dump Galvis".

I know everyone was excited by Freddie's hot start with the Reds, but he has cooled off. Like an Ice Age. in his last 37 plate appearances he has 1 hit and 1 walk. This brings his OBP this year down to .293, which is his career average. (During a year when everyone is saying he had such a great year!). The guy is Billy Hamilton except as an infielder, cripples the offense.

Iglesias batting average is .293 with .357 OBP, and all-star defense. Galvis base salary $4M this year, versus Iglesias $2.5M. This is an absolute no-brainer. If either is to be retained, it has to be Jose.
 
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