The Last Days of Knight

14Red

New member
Should get some interesting opinions on this, not being in Indiana.

I finally got to watch the documentary The Last Days of Knight last night.

Now I'm sure there will be alot of differing opinions on this, Knight is such a polarizing figure. Being in Ohio, and Knight is from Ohio and won a national championship as a player at Ohio State, there is also the Woody Hayes comparisons.

I thought the show was pretty fair for the most part, although it was very, very clear where the writer and the former CNN exec stood. And I'm not saying I condone what Knight did, or had done.

I've been a big IU hoops fan my whole life. I grew up in Indiana in the 70's and 80's and IU basketball was huge and still is to a certain degree.

IMO, this whole story came down to two major points, the "choking" of Neil Reed, and Knight wiping his butt in the locker room as a "prop".

Do successful college coaches get a pass on questionable behavior?? Absolutely...it's happened for 100 years or more. When coaches get older, in to their 50's 60's, do they lose their filter and are more open?? Absolutely.

I would had liked to seen alot more balance in the story to all of the good things Knight did at IU over those same 15-20 years. And I don't know if any of Knight's former players were asked to interview for the show, but there was only a handful who actually spoke.
Over this time, we've never heard of any issues with Scott May, Quin Buckner, Kent Benson, Randy Whitman, Ted Kitchel, Issiah Thomas, Daryl Thomas, I could name dozens and dozens more. So was Neil Reed just singled out by Knight one time, or did this happen to others and they have never said anything? And why? Certainly Issiah Thomas would not fear Knight, even 25 years ago.

I'd encourage anyone interested to look up Dan Dakich and see what he thought about this. For the record, he's not friends with Knight anymore. They have no relationship and there's no repercussions. He said Reed wasn't a chior boy, Reed's dad and Ron Felling, who gave up the tape, were best buddies. IU gave jobs to Reed's family because they were broke. The writer of this 30/30 wanted Dakich to interview for the program and flat out did not. He told the guy this is old news and he should just let it drop. Knight's and old man living out his days and this program is silly.

I have no idea what went on in Reed's head. I know growing up in Indiana and being an IU fan, you had to be an "Indiana guy" to be recruited by Knight. There were several good players in Indiana who could never play for Knight. Not sure why Reed felt he could play there. It's sad that he passed away at such a young age. He seemed to have his life back together. You just wonder if there was a little more digging into his background if there was some other demons out there.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I haven't seen it yet, nor do I think I want to.

I had always been a huge IU fan growing up. My Sunday 'church' was watching the BK show with coach and Chuck Marlowe. My earliest memories would have been Alford's career so middle 80's. Living 10 miles from Indiana we got all Ft Wayne stations and of course, it was always IU all the time.

Indiana always has done a better job at promoting their HS basketball with it being widespread on free tv back in the day. Always loved watching the IU HS hoops tourney, semi state, the championship, etc. Always thought it odd they would play two games in one day but that lead to some of the allure I suppose.

Through the years being surrounded by OSU fans I saw the hypocrits who praised woody, but vilified BK.


I just wish BK would forgive IU. Those who wronged him are all gone. He has been invited to come back but always refuses.

With that said, Bobby Knight was offered a job before his college coaching days locally in west central ohio, but turned it down when they told him he also had to coach a second sport at the school


Now that you have brought me down memory lane I am going to watch a video of Martha the lady, sponsored by Indiana Farm Insurance, shed a lil tear and yearn for the good ole days of IU basketball.
 

14Red

New member
I haven't seen it yet, nor do I think I want to.

I had always been a huge IU fan growing up. My Sunday 'church' was watching the BK show with coach and Chuck Marlowe. My earliest memories would have been Alford's career so middle 80's. Living 10 miles from Indiana we got all Ft Wayne stations and of course, it was always IU all the time.

Indiana always has done a better job at promoting their HS basketball with it being widespread on free tv back in the day. Always loved watching the IU HS hoops tourney, semi state, the championship, etc. Always thought it odd they would play two games in one day but that lead to some of the allure I suppose.

Through the years being surrounded by OSU fans I saw the hypocrits who praised woody, but vilified BK.


I just wish BK would forgive IU. Those who wronged him are all gone. He has been invited to come back but always refuses.

With that said, Bobby Knight was offered a job before his college coaching days locally in west central ohio, but turned it down when they told him he also had to coach a second sport at the school


Now that you have brought me down memory lane I am going to watch a video of Martha the lady, sponsored by Indiana Farm Insurance, shed a lil tear and yearn for the good ole days of IU basketball.

Haha! The mop lady...I went to an IU game a few years ago, first time in 30 years, and they play that commercial right before the game and you are correct, it brings back so many memories of IU basketball on TV, Channel 4 for me. You'd set your clock on IU basketball games.
I think you should watch it, it's a little uncomfortable at the time, but Knight did go over and cross the line many times. He was bigger than the university. Not unlike Woody, Joe Paterno, Dean Smith, anyone who's an institution at a college who's won. Fans put them higher than anyone else. Has there ever been a college president at a school for more than a few years?
However, like I said earlier, Knight grew up in a time when coaches coached tough, they were physical with players. Now I guess Knight, in his younger days with the teams in the 70's was much closer to the age of those guys and I don't recall any issues. I just think as the game started to get away from him, he became more and more physically aggressive. Of course Reed was small, but I do feel there is some validity that Knight felt he could "go after" some players more than other because they could "take it".

I think anyone that understands Knight knows once you cross him, you are about done. I don't think he'll ever go back to IU. They are the enemy, they discarded him. It's an old school way of thinking. Knight isn't "friends" with people who cross him. Now many feel this is intimating and bullying, but many former players got to where they are at in life due to Knight's influence or some contacts. If you were a basketball at IU in the 70's and 80's, you were gold if you didn't screw up.

One of the cool things about the show what they had clips of the '76, '81 and '87 championships and Don Fischer was doing the radio calls, even back in '76, and he continues to do them today!
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Haha! The mop lady...I went to an IU game a few years ago, first time in 30 years, and they play that commercial right before the game and you are correct, it brings back so many memories of IU basketball on TV, Channel 4 for me. You'd set your clock on IU basketball games.
I think you should watch it, it's a little uncomfortable at the time, but Knight did go over and cross the line many times. He was bigger than the university. Not unlike Woody, Joe Paterno, Dean Smith, anyone who's an institution at a college who's won. Fans put them higher than anyone else. Has there ever been a college president at a school for more than a few years?
However, like I said earlier, Knight grew up in a time when coaches coached tough, they were physical with players. Now I guess Knight, in his younger days with the teams in the 70's was much closer to the age of those guys and I don't recall any issues. I just think as the game started to get away from him, he became more and more physically aggressive. Of course Reed was small, but I do feel there is some validity that Knight felt he could "go after" some players more than other because they could "take it".

I think anyone that understands Knight knows once you cross him, you are about done. I don't think he'll ever go back to IU. They are the enemy, they discarded him. It's an old school way of thinking. Knight isn't "friends" with people who cross him. Now many feel this is intimating and bullying, but many former players got to where they are at in life due to Knight's influence or some contacts. If you were a basketball at IU in the 70's and 80's, you were gold if you didn't screw up.

One of the cool things about the show what they had clips of the '76, '81 and '87 championships and Don Fischer was doing the radio calls, even back in '76, and he continues to do them today!
Believe Crean brought back that mop lady commercial that used to play on TV. Great memories.

Chuck and Laz on the calls for Learfield sports....always a good listen.

I remember John Chaney at Temple comment how the things he read/heard BK do were minor compared to what he did!


He has done so much good over the years like all the $$ to the libraries. Recall a story of a time he ran into a former player years later at an event. Asked him what it cost his family the season BK took the kids scholarship away, and he wrote him a check right then and there to supporting the Celtics to draft Landon Turner even after he was paralyzed

but I digress.



and you aren't a true hoosier fan if you haven't heard of the "Sick and tired of Purdue..." rant.

My 7th grade hoops coach, a great IU fan as well, gave me this quote in JH that I posted on my wall as a kid from BK...

'the best motivator is your on the bench. meets bench. bench retains . sends message to brain. brain gets of bench and performs a helluvalot better!

Times are different, no doubt about that.
 

14Red

New member
Believe Crean brought back that mop lady commercial that used to play on TV. Great memories.

Chuck and Laz on the calls for Learfield sports....always a good listen.

I remember John Chaney at Temple comment how the things he read/heard BK do were minor compared to what he did!


He has done so much good over the years like all the $$ to the libraries. Recall a story of a time he ran into a former player years later at an event. Asked him what it cost his family the season BK took the kids scholarship away, and he wrote him a check right then and there to supporting the Celtics to draft Landon Turner even after he was paralyzed

but I digress.



and you aren't a true hoosier fan if you haven't heard of the "Sick and tired of Purdue..." rant.

My 7th grade hoops coach, a great IU fan as well, gave me this quote in JH that I posted on my wall as a kid from BK...

'the best motivator is your on the bench. meets bench. bench retains . sends message to brain. brain gets of bench and performs a helluvalot better!

Times are different, no doubt about that.
I'm not sure if there is more of a true test that times have changed than with the Neil Reed stuff. We all remember the jr. high or high school coaches who would grab kids face masks, swat a kid once in awhile, it was kind of "normal" back then. Not everyone did it, but we all had a coach back then who we feared. Coaches were not your "buddies".
Not to ruin the show for you, but if you do see it, there's a part towards the end that made me chuckle and was spot on with what the creators were trying to accomplish. They interview Neil Reed's mom after all this came out, of course they put the camera about 6 inches from her face...and she...cries...choking back tears and says she doesn't like to see her kid "hurt". I'm sure it was video gold for the creators.

I'm never going to say I agreed with all Knight did. He's a tough SOB and that's the way he knew how to coach. I do know his teams, pre shot clock and 3 point line, would be...
-great defensively
-pass the ball
-get good shots
-play a very disciplined form of basketball

And the big thing was IU didn't cheat. Knight would never allow a booster or anyone to mess up the program, he just wasn't about that. His kids also graduated. I can't remember a kid transferring from IU and ever re-establishing a relationship with Knight. You cross him, you're done, pretty simple. Now if you got through 4 years, he'd do anything for you after graduation. Pretty black and white.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I'm not sure if there is more of a true test that times have changed than with the Neil Reed stuff. We all remember the jr. high or high school coaches who would grab kids face masks, swat a kid once in awhile, it was kind of "normal" back then. Not everyone did it, but we all had a coach back then who we feared. Coaches were not your "buddies".
Not to ruin the show for you, but if you do see it, there's a part towards the end that made me chuckle and was spot on with what the creators were trying to accomplish. They interview Neil Reed's mom after all this came out, of course they put the camera about 6 inches from her face...and she...cries...choking back tears and says she doesn't like to see her kid "hurt". I'm sure it was video gold for the creators.

I'm never going to say I agreed with all Knight did. He's a tough SOB and that's the way he knew how to coach. I do know his teams, pre shot clock and 3 point line, would be...
-great defensively
-pass the ball
-get good shots
-play a very disciplined form of basketball

And the big thing was IU didn't cheat. Knight would never allow a booster or anyone to mess up the program, he just wasn't about that. His kids also graduated. I can't remember a kid transferring from IU and ever re-establishing a relationship with Knight. You cross him, you're done, pretty simple. Now if you got through 4 years, he'd do anything for you after graduation. Pretty black and white.
He was always extremely loyal, no doubt about that. He expected the crowds to follow some sort of decorum and if they got out of line, he would get on the PA and tell them so.

The Senior Night games and post game ceremonies were always my favorite. There was a time or two that ESPN carried the game and they wouldn't cover it but when it was on local TV they always did so.

I imagine it would have eventually happened but BK started a bad trend when he started to go watch Damon Bailey in JH. DB became a legend in Indiana and no way he could ever have lived up to the hype. Many believed he failed in Indiana but he ended up top 10 in his career.

Who were your favs? Alford was the first star I remember, although I vaguely recall Uwe Blabb!

Chaeney was likely my favorite. Man was his shot great, and then the white version of his lefty great shot...Evans!

Always was a fan of Guyton, Gregg Graham (or as we remembered..the black graham)

Who could forget Ricky Calloway and Daryl Thomas on that squad with Alford smart and garrett.

I think one of their best teams, 91ish, losing to Kansas in the NCAA after Alan Henderson gets hurt. That season ending loss hurt as I thought they had a chance.


Oh,...the good ole days, but it seems like they have some great recruits committing recently.


Remember watching Lyndon Jones and Jay Edwards playing for the Marion Giants in HS and then going to IU.


Back in the day peegs.com was the place to go for IU hoops news. They then started a subscription service, and I said hell no.


BK would insist to play at 7pm during the week. He wouldn't allow IU to play the late games on ESPN during the week because of the kids having school the next day.

Also...not using up all his TO's. He would get asked from time to time why he didn't call a TO in a big spot and he would answer that he felt like he did a better job at preparing his team than their opponents and rather his guys play then to call a TO and allow the other team to get a game plan together.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I saw this way back in the Summer when it first came out. Knight is/was a garbage human being. Not to mention, the game had totally passed him by to the point he wasn’t even that good of a coach. Didn’t his last 3 or 4 teams get bounced before the S16? He would have never adapted to modern b-ball bc his ego was too big to admit he could be wrong.
 
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Omar

Well-known member
I'm not sure if there is more of a true test that times have changed than with the Neil Reed stuff. We all remember the jr. high or high school coaches who would grab kids face masks, swat a kid once in awhile, it was kind of "normal" back then. Not everyone did it, but we all had a coach back then who we feared. Coaches were not your "buddies".
Not to ruin the show for you, but if you do see it, there's a part towards the end that made me chuckle and was spot on with what the creators were trying to accomplish. They interview Neil Reed's mom after all this came out, of course they put the camera about 6 inches from her face...and she...cries...choking back tears and says she doesn't like to see her kid "hurt". I'm sure it was video gold for the creators.

I'm never going to say I agreed with all Knight did. He's a tough SOB and that's the way he knew how to coach. I do know his teams, pre shot clock and 3 point line, would be...
-great defensively
-pass the ball
-get good shots
-play a very disciplined form of basketball

And the big thing was IU didn't cheat. Knight would never allow a booster or anyone to mess up the program, he just wasn't about that. His kids also graduated. I can't remember a kid transferring from IU and ever re-establishing a relationship with Knight. You cross him, you're done, pretty simple. Now if you got through 4 years, he'd do anything for you after graduation. Pretty black and white.
You don’t see a difference bw physically choking someone and grabbing a Facemask? I hate how coddled players are today. The people freaking out over MJ tapping Malik Monk on the head are soft. However, Knight was an abusive and borderline sadistic no matter what era.
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
Yeah, choking is not those other things. Choking is a sign, time to retire. There was nothing anyone did, nor Reed that should have escalated to that. Neither quitting nor choking is Bobby Knight, in either case, he couldn't let go (ba dum bum).


There's not a venue in Indiana, Bobby Knight couldn't walk in and someone would give up front row seat. Butler, Purdue, wouldn't matter. But it's to his inability to let go that will define him. He will never finish the life he could have if he doesn't let go his issues with IU and go back. I would love to see this. It would bring tears coast to coast and maybe that's why he won't go? Maybe it's the fear of tears, his own.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Yeah, choking is not those other things. Choking is a sign, time to retire. There was nothing anyone did, nor Reed that should have escalated to that. Neither quitting nor choking is Bobby Knight, in either case, he couldn't let go (ba dum bum).


There's not a venue in Indiana, Bobby Knight couldn't walk in and someone would give up front row seat. Butler, Purdue, wouldn't matter. But it's to his inability to let go that will define him. He will never finish the life he could have if he doesn't let go his issues with IU and go back. I would love to see this. It would bring tears coast to coast and maybe that's why he won't go? Maybe it's the fear of tears, his own.
It was going to end ugly no matter what. He absolutely deserves credit for what he did in the 70s and 80s, but he and IU were going nowhere fast. For people like Knight, ego is everything. It doesn’t matter what’s happening around them, they’ll stick to their guns at the expense of everyone else.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Even some of the meanest boxers get mellowed by the battles and age. I guess there's a part of me that hopes that for Knight.

My watching Knight was in the stands at Purdue. The chair was after. Those were good home and home years for the rivalry. A final four for us and the beginning of Keady. It is surprising to me that Knight has gone to Purdue, but not IU. Sad too.
 

14Red

New member
I saw this way back in the Summer when it first came out. Knight is/was a garbage human being. Not to mention, the game had totally passed him by to the point he wasn’t even that good of a coach. Didn’t his last 3 or 4 teams get bounced before the S16? He would have never adapted to modern b-ball bc his ego was too big to admit he could be wrong.
You see I disagree with this. When the 3 point line and shot clock came into being, it took more coaching out of basketball. Knight's best teams were great at running clock and making free throws. Watching IU growing up, if they were up by 3-4 points with 5 minutes to go, the game was over.
The
 

Omar

Well-known member
You see I disagree with this. When the 3 point line and shot clock came into being, it took more coaching out of basketball. Knight's best teams were great at running clock and making free throws. Watching IU growing up, if they were up by 3-4 points with 5 minutes to go, the game was over.
The
The 3 Pt Line was around when they won in ‘87. The bottom line is he was floundering during the end of his tenure at IU bc b-ball became more about up tempo offense and less half court Motion.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Even some of the meanest boxers get mellowed by the battles and age. I guess there's a part of me that hopes that for Knight.

My watching Knight was in the stands at Purdue. The chair was after. Those were good home and home years for the rivalry. A final four for us and the beginning of Keady. It is surprising to me that Knight has gone to Purdue, but not IU. Sad too.
His behavior at this point in life is a pretty good indication he wasn’t going to mellow out.
 

Auggie

Well-known member
I saw bits and pieces of it and thought it was well done. Was never a huge fan but understand those that were because the guy won and did it his way. A lot of similarities to Woody and I always thought he would go out in a blaze like Woody did. Was the "...if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it." Connie Chung interview thing ever covered? That's worse than the poop prop in my book.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
The 3 Pt Line was around when they won in ‘87. The bottom line is he was floundering during the end of his tenure at IU bc b-ball became more about up tempo offense and less half court Motion.
They likely don't win the title without the 3 point shooting of Steve Alford so he absolutely adapted.

I wouldn't say it was is inability to adapt to uptempo style of game. I remember Billy 'Mr ACC" Packer comment during their run in 1987 when they beat the running rebels 97-93 (Going off memory..someone prove me wrong) that BK and Indiana won because they were adapting to the up tempo style. I want to say they even scored 107 in the tournament against Auburn as well (after falling behind by 20 in the first half).


The issue really because that he wasn't able to recruit the top of the line athletes. in 1987 they don't win the title if they hadn't had two JUCO transfers come in who were talented (Smart and Garrett). BK was never a slow down coach. He was a motion offense guy who didn't mind up tempo when the games dictated it. They even started to get an unofficial motto of the "hurryin' hoosiers" for a bit.

His extreme discipline and the fact kids were able to go elsewhere and not have to deal with it had more to do with it. His motion offenses when running efficiently were fantastic to watch and capable of scoring often.

It is not unlike those who just cannot join the military because they don't want that sort of in-your-face discipline that teeters on the edge.


This reminds me, I need to finally transfer the NCAA tournament games from .87 from my VHS to DVD!
 

Omar

Well-known member
They likely don't win the title without the 3 point shooting of Steve Alford so he absolutely adapted.

I wouldn't say it was is inability to adapt to uptempo style of game. I remember Billy 'Mr ACC" Packer comment during their run in 1987 when they beat the running rebels 97-93 (Going off memory..someone prove me wrong) that BK and Indiana won because they were adapting to the up tempo style. I want to say they even scored 107 in the tournament against Auburn as well (after falling behind by 20 in the first half).


The issue really because that he wasn't able to recruit the top of the line athletes. in 1987 they don't win the title if they hadn't had two JUCO transfers come in who were talented (Smart and Garrett). BK was never a slow down coach. He was a motion offense guy who didn't mind up tempo when the games dictated it. They even started to get an unofficial motto of the "hurryin' hoosiers" for a bit.

His extreme discipline and the fact kids were able to go elsewhere and not have to deal with it had more to do with it. His motion offenses when running efficiently were fantastic to watch and capable of scoring often.

It is not unlike those who just cannot join the military because they don't want that sort of in-your-face discipline that teeters on the edge.


This reminds me, I need to finally transfer the NCAA tournament games from .87 from my VHS to DVD!
Is that why they got their azz kicked repeatedly in the Tournament his last few yrs? The game passed him by and his ego was too big to admit he needed to change. He would’ve continued to lose and lose in embarrassing fashion bc he was a total failure at the end of his career.

And there’s a big difference bw being in the military and playing b-ball. I love sports, but it’s not life and death like the military. A good coach would be able to instill military like discipline without a being an abusive azz.
 

14Red

New member
He was always extremely loyal, no doubt about that. He expected the crowds to follow some sort of decorum and if they got out of line, he would get on the PA and tell them so.

The Senior Night games and post game ceremonies were always my favorite. There was a time or two that ESPN carried the game and they wouldn't cover it but when it was on local TV they always did so.

I imagine it would have eventually happened but BK started a bad trend when he started to go watch Damon Bailey in JH. DB became a legend in Indiana and no way he could ever have lived up to the hype. Many believed he failed in Indiana but he ended up top 10 in his career.

Who were your favs? Alford was the first star I remember, although I vaguely recall Uwe Blabb!

Chaeney was likely my favorite. Man was his shot great, and then the white version of his lefty great shot...Evans!

Always was a fan of Guyton, Gregg Graham (or as we remembered..the black graham)

Who could forget Ricky Calloway and Daryl Thomas on that squad with Alford smart and garrett.

I think one of their best teams, 91ish, losing to Kansas in the NCAA after Alan Henderson gets hurt. That season ending loss hurt as I thought they had a chance.


Oh,...the good ole days, but it seems like they have some great recruits committing recently.


Remember watching Lyndon Jones and Jay Edwards playing for the Marion Giants in HS and then going to IU.


Back in the day peegs.com was the place to go for IU hoops news. They then started a subscription service, and I said hell no.


BK would insist to play at 7pm during the week. He wouldn't allow IU to play the late games on ESPN during the week because of the kids having school the next day.

Also...not using up all his TO's. He would get asked from time to time why he didn't call a TO in a big spot and he would answer that he felt like he did a better job at preparing his team than their opponents and rather his guys play then to call a TO and allow the other team to get a game plan together.
In the show, that recently aired, they showed Knight yelling at the student section to get rid of a sign. Of course they didn't say the sign was inappropriate, they just showed Knight yelling at the student section. Look, Knight never won any popularity contests with the media, so they took every opportunity to make him look bad. He really didn't care. He figured at pressers if he was the main attraction, he should be able to run the presser. The media has and overinflated sense of themselves, beginning in the 80's with the explosion of ESPN. From that point, you saw some "journalists" baiting Knight into confrontations. I felt sorry for Chuck Marlowe at times, especially after a tough loss if Knight didn't want to talk.

I had lots of favorites at IU over the years. The first teams I really started following was the late 70's 80's teams, Randy Wittman, Isiah Thomas, of course Alford. Alford was a year older than me and our high schools were within an hour of each other. Never got to play him but followed his entire career. Imagine he never get a whiff of the Olympic team without Knight as coach. He actually was a key contributor to that team's success, which included Jordan, Ewing, Chris Mullin, Sam Perkins, Wayman Tisdale.
Liked Cheney, Alan Henderson, AJ Guydon, Brian Evans, Kirk Haston (should have never left early), I really liked the 15-16 team, led by Yogi Farrell, he's one of my favorite all time Hoosiers because he got alot better during his 4 years.

Three players were brought to light for transferring, Mr. Basketball types, Luke Recker, Neil Reed and Jason Collier. What the show didn't mention was that none achieved any kind of success after leaving IU. In fact, I can hardly remember a player leaving IU during Knight's time that turned out to work for them, other than Larry Bird. And I really don't count him because as I remember, he left one or two weeks into school starting, so he never go started.

One thing I thought that was very unfair to Knight was Gene Keady, Purdue's legendary coach, would get angry and do all the antics Knight did and more, yet no one ever said anything. Tom Izzo nowadays as well. Knight being big and imposing makes it look worse than it really is.
 

14Red

New member
The 3 Pt Line was around when they won in ‘87. The bottom line is he was floundering during the end of his tenure at IU bc b-ball became more about up tempo offense and less half court Motion.
Ironically, Knight, who wasn't happy about the 3 point line being added, had Alford his senior year WITH the 3 point line, and won it all. But most college teams had not got to the point where they are now, where EVERYRONE shoots 3's and the game has been revolutionized.

The bottom line was the game, due to the 3 point shot and the shot clock, became less controllable by coaches, and more about players. Knight won the NCAA title in '87 with a 3 point shooter in Alford, and two Juco's (which he hated doing). So he did evolve some. But it became tougher and tougher for him to coach the modern athlete. Colleges were recruiting lesser "student" athletes and more "athletes" and that made it difficult as well. I'm not sure Jay Edwards and Lyndon Jones gets to Bloomington in the 70's / early 80's. Things were slipping at IU then and Knight took chances on alot of kids. Some came back to bite him.

I do disagree to a point, the motion offense, just spread out more, is what alot of teams use today to shoot 3's.
 

ronnie mund

Well-known member
Omar right on the money here. Between 1994 and 2008 Knight only made it past the 2nd round one time. Also he's an angry, bitter human being.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Ironically, Knight, who wasn't happy about the 3 point line being added, had Alford his senior year WITH the 3 point line, and won it all. But most college teams had not got to the point where they are now, where EVERYRONE shoots 3's and the game has been revolutionized.

The bottom line was the game, due to the 3 point shot and the shot clock, became less controllable by coaches, and more about players. Knight won the NCAA title in '87 with a 3 point shooter in Alford, and two Juco's (which he hated doing). So he did evolve some. But it became tougher and tougher for him to coach the modern athlete. Colleges were recruiting lesser "student" athletes and more "athletes" and that made it difficult as well. I'm not sure Jay Edwards and Lyndon Jones gets to Bloomington in the 70's / early 80's. Things were slipping at IU then and Knight took chances on alot of kids. Some came back to bite him.

I do disagree to a point, the motion offense, just spread out more, is what alot of teams use today to shoot 3's.
The game really changed. The 3pt game came along between my 7th and 8th grade years and for quite awhile it wasn't something many people shot.

I personally like the motion offense more than what I see too often nowadays when it is chuck from three land.

I don't recall Lydon Jones ever getting into trouble but I know Edwards did quite a bit. Recker...was very dsappointed when he left.



maybe ill check it out on demand or something.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Omar right on the money here. Between 1994 and 2008 Knight only made it past the 2nd round one time. Also he's an angry, bitter human being.
There’s only one way it was going to end at IU and that was badly. They would’ve either tried to push him to retire or name a successor in waiting and that was never going to happen.

He couldn’t even get along with the ppl at Texas Tech and they treated him like a god.
 

14Red

New member
The game really changed. The 3pt game came along between my 7th and 8th grade years and for quite awhile it wasn't something many people shot.

I personally like the motion offense more than what I see too often nowadays when it is chuck from three land.

I don't recall Lydon Jones ever getting into trouble but I know Edwards did quite a bit. Recker...was very dsappointed when he left.



maybe ill check it out on demand or something.
I'm sure it will be on again, more than once.

I think Recker was a stretch when he went to IU. Most flashy high school players are not "Knight" type players. But at that point, Knight couldn't really turn down anyone if they wanted to come.
It was very difficult for Knight to allow players to run the program, and that's how it's done these days. Coach K, Izzo have been able to transition from being strict disciplinarians to being much less than that. I wonder how much Coach K even coaches anymore, it's get one and dones and roll the balls out. anymore.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I'm sure it will be on again, more than once.

I think Recker was a stretch when he went to IU. Most flashy high school players are not "Knight" type players. But at that point, Knight couldn't really turn down anyone if they wanted to come.
It was very difficult for Knight to allow players to run the program, and that's how it's done these days. Coach K, Izzo have been able to transition from being strict disciplinarians to being much less than that. I wonder how much Coach K even coaches anymore, it's get one and dones and roll the balls out. anymore.
I’m not a fan of the one and done culture. I think it’s bad for the athletes and bad for college b-ball. Now, I’m not naive enough to believe college athletics are built on “student” athletes, but I think for development of the player and continuity within a program, they need to stay 2 yrs or be able to enter the draft after HS.

Coach K went through a rough stretch in the mid 00s. Then he won a National Title in a down Yr, got Kyrie Irving the next Yr and established himself as capable of bringing the one and dones. Coach K has a reputation for being a disciplinarian but he’s able to walk the Line Knight frequently crossed. He’ll cuss kids out in practice, but he’ll almost never single out a player in a game.

The fact Knight would feel threatened by a “flashy” player is exactly why he’d fail in today’s game. Even teams like Nova and Gonzaga that have been succesful with upper classmen, have had a few star players.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Three players were brought to light for transferring, Mr. Basketball types, Luke Recker, Neil Reed and Jason Collier. What the show didn't mention was that none achieved any kind of success after leaving IU. In fact, I can hardly remember a player leaving IU during Knight's time that turned out to work for them, other than Larry Bird. And I really don't count him because as I remember, he left one or two weeks into school starting, so he never go started.
Being from the school that I followed in my childhood, everything that I've ever heard indicates that Jason could not tolerate Knight's behavior and mannerisms towards players. I think this was probably a great contrast of old school meeting the new school, both coach to player and player to coach.

I remember Collier playing for Georgia Tech in much better detail than I do him playing for IU, but I doubt Knight really knew or cared to adapt his offensive concepts to utilize his new age "stretch" post skills. After transferring to GT, he shot the 3 at a 37-38% clip taking three or so a game. Collier didn't shoot any threes through about 10 games prior to deciding to leave IU during his sophomore season. Knight probably would have had heart palpitations on the sidelines if Collier shot it as liberally from the perimeter at IU as he did at GT.

I think leaving to go to his father's alma mater, Georgia Tech, definitely worked out for Collier. The team wasn't all that great, but he had the freedom to be more of a modern big and averaged 17 ppg and 8 rpg over his two seasons in Atlanta, en route to being a mid 1st round pick and giving his family some financial security before his sudden death in his late 20s.

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Arrogate

Active member
I’m not a fan of the one and done culture. I think it’s bad for the athletes and bad for college b-ball. Now, I’m not naive enough to believe college athletics are built on “student” athletes, but I think for development of the player and continuity within a program, they need to stay 2 yrs or be able to enter the draft after HS.

Coach K went through a rough stretch in the mid 00s. Then he won a National Title in a down Yr, got Kyrie Irving the next Yr and established himself as capable of bringing the one and dones. Coach K has a reputation for being a disciplinarian but he’s able to walk the Line Knight frequently crossed. He’ll cuss kids out in practice, but he’ll almost never single out a player in a game.

The fact Knight would feel threatened by a “flashy” player is exactly why he’d fail in today’s game. Even teams like Nova and Gonzaga that have been succesful with upper classmen, have had a few star players.
The ability to adapt through multiple "eras and styles" of basketball is why K is the best. When the one and done thing is over I would imagine he will adapt again and still be dominant. I think Capel was a big reason K switched his "style".

You can still be a disciplinarian in todays athletic world. You just cant do it Bob Knight or Billy Clyde style. Whether it was adapting to the game or to the modern athlete, coach K is unparalleled in that regard.
 

14Red

New member
Being from the school that I followed in my childhood, everything that I've ever heard indicates that Jason could not tolerate Knight's behavior and mannerisms towards players. I think this was probably a great contrast of old school meeting the new school, both coach to player and player to coach.

I remember Collier playing for Georgia Tech in much better detail than I do him playing for IU, but I doubt Knight really knew or cared to adapt his offensive concepts to utilize his new age "stretch" post skills. After transferring to GT, he shot the 3 at a 37-38% clip taking three or so a game. Collier didn't shoot any threes through about 10 games prior to deciding to leave IU during his sophomore season. Knight probably would have had heart palpitations on the sidelines if Collier shot it as liberally from the perimeter at IU as he did at GT.

I think leaving to go to his father's alma mater, Georgia Tech, definitely worked out for Collier. The team wasn't all that great, but he had the freedom to be more of a modern big and averaged 17 ppg and 8 rpg over his two seasons in Atlanta, en route to being a mid 1st round pick and giving his family some financial security before his sudden death in his late 20s.

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You really wonder what made Collier choose IU in the first place. I'd always contended that there were guys who simply were not IU type players. Glen Robinson for example. Knight didn't even TRY to recruit guys who he saw that he couldn't deal with.
In contrast I'd say Brian Evans, Kirk Haston were similar skill sets to Collier. Sometimes is the mindset, not the skillset.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
You really wonder what made Collier choose IU in the first place. I'd always contended that there were guys who simply were not IU type players. Glen Robinson for example. Knight didn't even TRY to recruit guys who he saw that he couldn't deal with.

In contrast I'd say Brian Evans, Kirk Haston were similar skill sets to Collier. Sometimes is the mindset, not the skillset.
In hindsight it was a really puzzling choice. Just on the mindset, Collier and Knight were a major mismatch. It's been a long time, but the portrait I remember of Collier is of a laid-back, fun loving personality. IU was not for him.

I find it to be very interesting that apparently neither flagged this as a major problem in the recruiting process. It kind of seems like Knight chose him because he was a high-end post recruit within a few hours of campus, and Collier chose IU because they were probably still the best program within a few hours of Springfield, Ohio at that time. Neither appear to have really thought beyond the surface about fit.

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thavoice

Well-known member
You really wonder what made Collier choose IU in the first place. I'd always contended that there were guys who simply were not IU type players. Glen Robinson for example. Knight didn't even TRY to recruit guys who he saw that he couldn't deal with.
In contrast I'd say Brian Evans, Kirk Haston were similar skill sets to Collier. Sometimes is the mindset, not the skillset.
I can never find the story online but I remember hearing Dan Dakich talk about Tim Duncan.

He said Duncan wanted to attend IU, his family had sent a video but Dakich failed to watch or pass it along to BK.
 
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