Wrestlinglife
Active member
I'm not sure that in 40 plus years in the wrestling world that I've met anyone who fits that description. Who wants wrestling to be club only and who wants to run off any kid who isn't great? That's kinda silly.
the annual throwing a match at districts thread will be heated the next couple weeks
- Thread starter wrestlfan
- Start date
They do pick the same bracket at times. Happens more than you’d think. Probably strategy to avoid a certain team at the regional level, so I’d say strategy.
I already see a spot where it makes sense to do it to me.
In this instance, the sectional number 2 (who beat the sectional 3 at the sectional) likely doesn't make it out because he drew into a quarter that he likely won't win, while the sectional 3 drew into the opposite quarter (same half bracket, obviously) where the 3 has a decent shot to win and the 2 would have a very good shot, but neither likely beats the semi loser from the other half in the consolation.
The question to me is whether the sectional 2 should suck it up and basically have very little shot to make it out while the sectional 3 has a much better draw and a much better shot to make it out. Should that 2 be punished for placing higher at sectionals and for beating the sectional 3?
I'm glad that I have no dog in the fight.
In this instance, the sectional number 2 (who beat the sectional 3 at the sectional) likely doesn't make it out because he drew into a quarter that he likely won't win, while the sectional 3 drew into the opposite quarter (same half bracket, obviously) where the 3 has a decent shot to win and the 2 would have a very good shot, but neither likely beats the semi loser from the other half in the consolation.
The question to me is whether the sectional 2 should suck it up and basically have very little shot to make it out while the sectional 3 has a much better draw and a much better shot to make it out. Should that 2 be punished for placing higher at sectionals and for beating the sectional 3?
I'm glad that I have no dog in the fight.
MPhillips
Well-known member
You're taking some liberties with what Askren said...
I hav another good example but not going to put names out there. Won't shock me if it happens.
This is a good way to explain it.
darthmalice
Well-known member
In 2016, kettering 113# district Jabari Thomas had that scenario which the quarterfinal match vs. Chad Craft, if he tanked would put him on the opposite side of the conso away from Jaimen Hood. Being a Freshman vs. being a Senior, the dynamics are totally different( last time up to bat). For the growth aspect, knowing you could qualify to state wasn't the question; knowing you could make that podium was the question, the goal. If I was a senior and had the chance sure I would take it; all types of tanks would be flying out the Nutter Center( Abrams, T-14, Tiger). With my son progression in just 3yrs. of wrestling and 3 more to go, if he couldn't beat the hammers in front of him, he got time to become one. I won't knock the path anyone chooses( to each there own decision), because I'm tanking and going to state( different motivation, ceiling, part evil I guess) to be honest. I wasn't gonna have Jabari do that( different motivations, higher ceiling, good kid).
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Brakattack
Active member
If you can better yourself why not do it? What if team implications are on the line? What if your injured a little and simply outgunned. Most people on here talking from what ifs and arent in the position. Lot of thought goes into these decisions from a staff. From my experience everytime we have done something like this it was massively deliberated and has worked every single time. Sorry some of yall never been in the trenches but if i have a senior who cant make it if he wins his quarters i hope we remove our egos and at least converse about it.
Yeah, I wasn't going to name names. Not my decision and I have zero input.
This isn't needed. You don't know what others have been through. I agree with your take but don't really like this comment.
Brakattack
Active member
John,
when people reply “Losing on purpose for a better draw is cowardly. Get better at the sport, not at taking shortcuts or the easy way.”
It seems clear to me that a lot of people on this thread have never been in that position, as an athlete or a coach. I have been in both. We are Trying to convey similar points i just might be a little more rough around the edges. You dont know what a kid is going through, so who is anybody to judge what he and his coaches decide is best for him!
Hope all is well!
I hear you my friend. I said i agreed with you. Its a valid point about not knowing what a kid is going through. Just like you dont know the background of who is saying what on here. I had already forget and brushed off those comments you quoted above. I cant remember that far back in any thread. See you at Darby.
Neversaynever
Active member
Coaches game plan for matches all the time. I don't see anything cowardly about game planning a bracket.
Having been around things for a good chunk of time, but not having to implicitly make "the call", here is some of my perspective.
Personally, I don't think I could in good conscience tell a kid (parent, or both) to intentionally "punt" a match. That being said, it would be absolutely irrational of me to say "we're not 'diving', period, end of story" - since the pragmatic goal of the district tournament is to get to the state tournament; it would be malpractice not to assess and examine all options.
Any internal conversation that coaching staffs have on this type of topic has to look at a wide range of considerations - examples being how much more manageable is the path with "diving" vs. "not diving", is there possibly a benefit to winning the tossup match to live with the consequence of not qualifying if that match is not won, is there possibility of the "diving" strategy not working out with a state spot anyway.
I've seen outcomes of wide range on this. The kid "dives" and gets to state, the kid "dives" and doesn't get to state anyway, the kid wrestles it out and loses the match(es) that modeling says they would, the kid wrestles through and wins the match that the diving would have avoided from occurring.
All that being said, I don't think one should pontificate with an extreme opinion on this, especially when they may or may not have been involved in one of these "crucial conversations". Along with the obvious of not being internal to the situation in question.
Personally, I don't think I could in good conscience tell a kid (parent, or both) to intentionally "punt" a match. That being said, it would be absolutely irrational of me to say "we're not 'diving', period, end of story" - since the pragmatic goal of the district tournament is to get to the state tournament; it would be malpractice not to assess and examine all options.
Any internal conversation that coaching staffs have on this type of topic has to look at a wide range of considerations - examples being how much more manageable is the path with "diving" vs. "not diving", is there possibly a benefit to winning the tossup match to live with the consequence of not qualifying if that match is not won, is there possibility of the "diving" strategy not working out with a state spot anyway.
I've seen outcomes of wide range on this. The kid "dives" and gets to state, the kid "dives" and doesn't get to state anyway, the kid wrestles it out and loses the match(es) that modeling says they would, the kid wrestles through and wins the match that the diving would have avoided from occurring.
All that being said, I don't think one should pontificate with an extreme opinion on this, especially when they may or may not have been involved in one of these "crucial conversations". Along with the obvious of not being internal to the situation in question.
knightflyer150
Well-known member
If I missed this here, apologies. I can't see intentionally "throwing" a match, but there's no rule against forfeiting the match and then staying in the consi bracket. That seems more ethically sound, maybe not airtight ethically, but at least you're not going 1950's-Brooklyn-Glass-Jaw-Throwing-a-fight-I-could-have-been-a-contender losing.
Wrestlingfan21
Well-known member
Has anyone seen a case where there was a double forfeit? What would happen then?
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
Eh I see the things he’s talking about leading to trends and attitudes. Feel free to disagree
I have no idea. Maybe Behrens will check this thread. He may know. Another thing that he could clarify is default vs forfeit. I thought with a forfeit the wrestler couldn't continue, but with a default he could.
TakedownFor2
Well-known member
Look at last years D3 District Bracket from Rossford...
195 pounds.... Tinora staff used wrong terminology to remove kid and get better draw.. had to by rule forfeit 1st round in consis as well...
Baumspage Results
www.baumspage.com
Please explain this more. Remove a kid to get a better draw?
Update: I went and looked at the bracket. I think i know what you are saying now.
Unless they changed it the wrestler doesn't have to report to the mat, but the official has to be notified well before the match is to begin.
What does well before mean? 5 min, 10 min, an hour?
I retired from officiating in 2020 so I may be mistaken, but if I'm correct the official has to have time to make his table, the opposing coach, and the head table aware. He needs to make sure that all parties are aware of any ramifications. So in essence it's a judgment call. LOL!!!!!! One important point, if the coach of the defaulting wrestle used the word forfeit, I would make sure that he was aware of that ramification. Some coaches/officials believe this is coaching the coach but, in my opinion, making them aware of the consequences is the right thing (ethical) thing to do.
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Wrestlinglife
Active member
Go out and do your best to win every match. I think this is very simple and people are over thinking it. You can't control the draw that you get, and you can't control what others will do. However, you can control attitude and effort.
Telling a kid to throw a match goes against the most basic principles that this sport is supposed to teach. Those life lessons are way more important than making it to the state tournament. The fact that we are even having this discussion makes me seriously question the way that some people parent or coach the youth today. I feel bad for those kids.
Nobody has ever seen an upset before? Nobody has ever seen a kid rise up above expectation and beat kids that people thought he would lose to, or beat a kid that previously beat him? Why even bother wrestling if the goal is to try to find an easy route, avoid challenges, go after the easiest path,, and aim small? No kid should ever be told that they aren't good enough to wrestle and win a match.
The goal is to win each match. Simple. Then you stack those wins on top of each other and if it results in you qualifying for the state tournament, then you just did something awesome. You have to have a really negative mindset to be looking for ways to avoid stiff comp in both the championship and consi bracket.
In life, like in wrestling, you can't always control the hand that you're dealt. In life, like in wrestling, you can always control how you keep a positive mental attitude and apply maximum effort to overcome those obstacles in your way. You won't always succeed, and there is nothing wrong with that. At least you can have some self respect and pride in how you handled the situation.
Opinions differ and are actually healthy unless of course you're of a certain political persuasion. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Wrestlinglife
Active member
I would like for one person who agrees with throwing or defaulting a match to tell me exactly how that talk with the wrestler will go. Explain to me what you are telling the wrestler who is throwing the match.
Pat Fitzgerald hit a Head & Arm on me so fast at sectionals that year my head is still spinning lol! Ended up losing to a kid from Eaton in the go to Districts match. Took 5th went to Districts as Alternate and got to watch some great wrestling. The Jordans were in the house lol!
Lost Octopus
Active member
"Hey, do want to wrestle the 6th ranked wrestler or the 26th ranked wrestler in your go to State match?" Seems like a pretty simple conversation.