Ray Allen " I am not very talented"

yakyak

yakyak

Well-known member
I always hate when elite athletes say they just worked hard.

Ray Allen HOF Speech
"I don't believe in talent. I'm here because I worked hard all my life," Allen said. "Without that work, no one in this room would know who I am besides my family. So to all the kids around the world watching, paying attention and aspiring to be like one of us, or even on this stage one day, put the work in and watch the magical ride you'll go on."

No Ray, your there because your 6'5' and had a 40 inch vertical when you were younger. I get the message and its valuable, but if Ray Allen was 6'1 and a 30 inch vertical, we have no idea who he is, no matter how hard he worked.

Too many kids now days dont realize you can work for 10 hours a day, and if your measurable and specs are not elite, it really does not matter. This is sad.
 
 
slaps forehead.

A person doesn't know their genetic abilities until the hard work is done. Shown time and time again how our personal and cultural stereotypes limit us, if we let them. We just do not know their possibilities or their limitations. That's why we have sports and research. 6'5" is 6'5" I'll grant you but we've all seen 6'5" come from less than tall parents. Or bloom late. We've seen the 6'5" that didn't get there.

With a Ray Allen, I don't think we're talking the far tails of genetics as we probably are with someone like James or Einstein. Certainly he is biased towards that end but I think all credit should be given. I don't think I get could myself to believe there are none in the HOF with average genetics or that average genetics can't result in a superior athlete.

Attaining major sports isn't someone going for some obscure Guinness record. Basketball has an immense triaging system. Gifted or not, those that succeed, they work hard.
 
I get both ends of this.

A high percentage of the world will NEVER play in the NBA no matter how much work they put into it. Being in the NBA has as much to do with genetics as being a jockey in horse racing.

With that said, there are a bunch of 6'5" guys who played basketball and never reached their full potential. They struggled physically or mentally to rise to this level. Some may have peaked in HS, some made it to college and fizzled out. There are even some that had success in college but couldn't figure out how to make it to the NBA. Most that did make it to the NBA were blessed with genetics and an incredible work ethic.
 
Well that's part of the discussion for the nature proponents: that the work ethic is genetic. I think it a misdirection. The question is, will the average genetic, whether the contribution be to physical or mental skills be enough with the right nurture, to compete in the top of any field. I think it is. It might not be enough to be the top, but it can get you on the same field or in the same lab.


And I just believe nurture to be the more reliable and valuable, when times get tough. There's a lot of really good genetics living on the street or Ma's basement or worse, blogging.
 
eastisbest said:
The question is, will the average genetic, whether the contribution be to physical or mental skills be enough with the right nurture, to compete in the top of any field. I think it is. It might not be enough to be the top, but it can get you on the same field or in the same lab.
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I think the NBA is different. Genetics can exclude you.

Overall, I like the message but it's coming from a sport that favors size to an extreme (much like jockeys). It muddies the message. There are other people who could stand on a similar stage where the message would resonate a little better.
 
Yappi, pick up the phone: someone named "Spud" is calling. You may have a point about jockey's though. Shaq could slim all he wanted and he would still suck at that.
 
Got to give Ray credit,he was smart enough not to come play with LBJ in The Land.
 
Yappi said:
I think the NBA is different. Genetics can exclude you.

Overall, I like the message but it's coming from a sport that favors size to an extreme (much like jockeys). It muddies the message. There are other people who could stand on a similar stage where the message would resonate a little better.
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I can not think of a professional sport right now that does not require a majority of talent to come from physicsl/dna prowless.

This is less true as you go down the sports levels ( college ) and ending with HS were work alone you can find success.
 
yakyak said:
I can not think of a professional sport right now that does not require a majority of talent to come from physicsl/dna prowless.

This is less true as you go down the sports levels ( college ) and ending with HS were work alone you can find success.
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We can presume you're correct and still not know who has that dna and who doesn't. Or how much and of what type is needed to "succeed" at the elite level. So is there any value to the nature argument to anyone other than Mengele?
 
450 Players are in the NBA

The average height is 6'7" with a 7 foot wingspan and very large hands.
Most have natural elite vertical leap and or quickness.

Many, not all have good to great work ethic as well, or at least did prior to entering the league.

Ray Allen with a Johnny Manziel work ethic - he is right, we would have not know him, but he probably still would have been D1. If he were shorter and an average athlete, with the same work ethic, we could have watch him set some records at John Carroll - but he isn't a pro.

To get in that top 450 and make it to the NBA, odds show you have to have both. Sure there are some guys who have made it with terrible work ethic, but none lasted very long.
 
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
 
ELKSTWO said:
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
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Watch for it!........:rolleyes:
 
ELKSTWO said:
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
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There's a lot going on here.
 
Hard Work

yakyak said:
I always hate when elite athletes say they just worked hard.

Ray Allen HOF Speech
"I don't believe in talent. I'm here because I worked hard all my life," Allen said. "Without that work, no one in this room would know who I am besides my family. So to all the kids around the world watching, paying attention and aspiring to be like one of us, or even on this stage one day, put the work in and watch the magical ride you'll go on."

No Ray, your there because your 6'5' and had a 40 inch vertical when you were younger. I get the message and its valuable, but if Ray Allen was 6'1 and a 30 inch vertical, we have no idea who he is, no matter how hard he worked.

Too many kids now days dont realize you can work for 10 hours a day, and if your measurable and specs are not elite, it really does not matter. This is sad.
Click to expand...



6'5 and 40 Inch might get you noticed but its all about the work you put in. Plenty of 6'5" 40 inch vertical players not in the league let alone in the HOF.

hundreds or thousands of shots or more per day and as your pregame routine is puttin in work! but talent does matter but not without hard work.

And the point is about giving yourself the opportunity by putting in hard work. The less work you put in lowers your chances at the opportunity to be successful.
 
ELKSTWO said:
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
Click to expand...

He was a thing of beauty but fragile?


East, you made a comment above about work ethic being nurture vs nature? As a parent, that is really an intriguing question. We had several children all raised in the same way, same values etc. No two were the same, but the effort and determination showed at 3 years of age was the same displayed at 20 in every case. Makes me believe even effort is largely genetic, it is who you are. We have one highly aggressive child and another very laid back.

As for finding out where your talent lies in the great pool of life, I worked my butt off, and thought as many young kids do that hard work would pay off handsomely. I was ready to prove my arrival so I went to the Bomburger gym on fifth street in Dayton, where all the good inner city kids played. I was chosen to match up vs a kid named Ron Harper, played for some team up near lake Erie. Ron was about to learn a valuable lesson.


Well......I found out I really was not ready for Ron, or most anyone playing there, so I focused on what I could REALLY do, academics.

It is interesting how many 4th -6th grade kids expect to make it big someday. As a coach, you just grin inside and go about preparing them as best you can, for that one day when they decide they are ready for Ron.
 
D4fan said:
He was a thing of beauty but fragile?


East, you made a comment above about work ethic being nurture vs nature? As a parent, that is really an intriguing question. We had several children all raised in the same way, same values etc. No two were the same, but the effort and determination showed at 3 years of age was the same displayed at 20 in every case. Makes me believe even effort is largely genetic, it is who you are. We have one highly aggressive child and another very laid back.

As for finding out where your talent lies in the great pool of life, I worked my butt off, and thought as many young kids do that hard work would pay off handsomely. I was ready to prove my arrival so I went to the Bomburger gym on fifth street in Dayton, where all the good inner city kids played. I was chosen to match up vs a kid named Ron Harper, played for some team up near lake Erie. Ron was about to learn a valuable lesson.


Well......I found out I really was not ready for Ron, or most anyone playing there, so I focused on what I could REALLY do, academics.

It is interesting how many 4th -6th grade kids expect to make it big someday. As a coach, you just grin inside and go about preparing them as best you can, for that one day when they decide they are ready for Ron.
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"ready for ron" You should get your boys ready for woodcock, cuz woodcock is coming he always is.
 
ICALLITLIKEI said:
6'5 and 40 Inch might get you noticed but its all about the work you put in. Plenty of 6'5" 40 inch vertical players not in the league let alone in the HOF.

hundreds or thousands of shots or more per day and as your pregame routine is puttin in work! but talent does matter but not without hard work.

And the point is about giving yourself the opportunity by putting in hard work. The less work you put in lowers your chances at the opportunity to be successful.
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Agreed. People who believe talent is the end all when it to comes sports either never played sports or just plain lazy and use lack of talent as an excuse.
 
Check out Ray Allen's early NBA career highlights. He was certainly talented.

People remember him as just a 3 point marksman, but dude was crazy athletic when he came into the league.

I'm sure he worked very hard, but he was crazy good.
 
yakyak said:
I always hate when elite athletes say they just worked hard.

Ray Allen HOF Speech
"I don't believe in talent. I'm here because I worked hard all my life," Allen said. "Without that work, no one in this room would know who I am besides my family. So to all the kids around the world watching, paying attention and aspiring to be like one of us, or even on this stage one day, put the work in and watch the magical ride you'll go on."

No Ray, your there because your 6'5' and had a 40 inch vertical when you were younger. I get the message and its valuable, but if Ray Allen was 6'1 and a 30 inch vertical, we have no idea who he is, no matter how hard he worked.

Too many kids now days dont realize you can work for 10 hours a day, and if your measurable and specs are not elite, it really does not matter. This is sad.
Click to expand...

The truly sad ones are the ones who have the genetic gifts and throw em away. I've seen / coached a few over the years who qualify for this category.

But I get what yakyak is saying. The one's that make me laugh are the 5'1 kids who can't dribble but swear they're making it. They get cut from 9th grade bball try outs, I tell em hey man you'd be a great 106 lber on the wrestling team and they're like "nah bball is my sport". But you just got cut from a BAD 9th grade team. You weren't even good enough to be on the bad team son.
 
scbuckeye99 said:
The truly sad ones are the ones who have the genetic gifts and throw em away. I've seen / coached a few over the years who qualify for this category.

But I get what yakyak is saying. The one's that make me laugh are the 5'1 kids who can't dribble but swear they're making it. They get cut from 9th grade bball try outs, I tell em hey man you'd be a great 106 lber on the wrestling team and they're like "nah bball is my sport". But you just got cut from a BAD 9th grade team. You weren't even good enough to be on the bad team son.
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A LOT of 9th graders haven't even had coaching yet. Seen the coaches at our local take what's remaining after the private schools are done picking and turn out everything from grind in the dirt to country club sports. Good ones. City champs. And the story always starts, I didn't start until 9th grade. Even more-so that story occurs in academics. I don't think your message is the one I'd have sent. At most levels of local ball, I think you'd agree that a 5'1" Fr can compete and even succeed. If the wrestler wants to ball, encourage him/her to ball. Might make a great, motivating team mate, or manager.

30 years ago, a kid from a tall family might have thought their only shot was to stand in the post or train for a job putting things on the top shelf. Then Magic and Bird came along. Europe noticed maybe more than kids in the US. A shorter kid today doesn't know the future and what advantages they may or may not have. IMO a person hamstrings themselves they get hung up on the things they cannot control. It's nurture babeeee!!!
 
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eastisbest said:
A LOT of 9th graders haven't even had coaching yet. Seen the coaches at our local take what's remaining after the private schools are done picking and turn out everything from grind in the dirt to country club sports. Good ones. City champs. And the story always starts, I didn't start until 9th grade. Even more-so that story occurs in academics. I don't think your message is the one I'd have sent. At most levels of local ball, I think you'd agree that a 5'1" Fr can compete and even succeed. If the wrestler wants to ball, encourage him/her to ball. Might make a great, motivating team mate, or manager.

30 years ago, a kid from a tall family might have thought their only shot was to stand in the post or train for a job putting things on the top shelf. Then Magic and Bird came along. Europe noticed maybe more than kids in the US. A shorter kid today doesn't know the future and what advantages they may or may not have. IMO a person hamstrings themselves they get hung up on the things they cannot control. It's nurture babeeee!!!
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They've had coaching just not the right coaching.
 
scbuckeye99 said:
They've had coaching just not the right coaching.
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I understand your intent but no. Unless school gym teacher rolling out the balls before going to the lounge counts as "coaching," kids that have had no coaching but want to play are not hard to find. Not even in basketball let alone the country club sports. High School is first exposure to organized sports for a lot of kids, particularly those without Dads. I've read your post regards the subject, so I'm sure you know that. We all have heard the stories of coaches roaming hallways looking for big or tall. I know one coach, found his sprinter when she ran by late for class. Said you couldn't barely hear her footsteps and she was movin.
 
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Ray might have thought he wasn't very talented...uh, but he was. What you "think" and what you are are often miles apart.
While "hard work" might separate one 6'5, 40" vertical guy from the other 6'5, 40" vertical guy...it won't do "jack" for the 5'10,
20" vertical guy...period. CNN is for playing games, here on Yappi we try to get real 'bout the important things like "sports."
 
Lol... I am sitting in a cubicle across from a 6'6 dude that has not one athletic bone in his body. Being blessed with height is one of the many intangibles that helps players make it to that level. But just assuming because someone has the height and they did not have to put in the work is just plain dismissive. Ray's jump shot did not get that sweet because he was born with it. Stop it! Tall dudes have to work to and some tall cats are good at other things like, computer networking!!!! Height is the one intangibles that can't be taught but most of the rest, speed, quickness, fundamentals, jumping ability, etc... All of that stuff can get worked on and to just dismiss that Ray did not do it is wrong.
 
member1 said:
Lol... I am sitting in a cubicle across from a 6'6 dude that has not one athletic bone in his body. Being blessed with height is one of the many intangibles that helps players make it to that level. But just assuming because someone has the height and they did not have to put in the work is just plain dismissive. Ray's jump shot did not get that sweet because he was born with it. Stop it! Tall dudes have to work to and some tall cats are good at other things like, computer networking!!!! Height is the one intangibles that can't be taught but most of the rest, speed, quickness, fundamentals, jumping ability, etc... All of that stuff can get worked on and to just dismiss that Ray did not do it is wrong.
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Your missing the point. The assumption made when these Professionals speak is "Just work hard, you can be a pro". That is so false. It takes Hard Work + Elite 1% genetics. Ray Allen was a freak of nature athlete (Hello, uconn Ray). That got him to D1 and to the pros. His work ethic got him to the hall of fame. The exact work ethic that Ray Allen showed but at 6'2 and a 30 inch vert. is sitting next you in the qube.

No athletic ability and work ethic can get you into D3 for example, but were talking about the millionaire pros gibberish here.
 
nooks said:
Ray might have thought he wasn't very talented...uh, but he was. What you "think" and what you are are often miles apart.
While "hard work" might separate one 6'5, 40" vertical guy from the other 6'5, 40" vertical guy...it won't do "jack" for the 5'10,
20" vertical guy...period. CNN is for playing games, here on Yappi we try to get real 'bout the important things like "sports."
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Entirely consievable Ray did not see himself as naturally gifted and thought all his hard work was what got him there.

Coaching track gave me an insight into the mental gymnastics athletes sometimes go through. Track is a sport which you can improve on what you naturally have, but only within a very narrow lane.

Some kids legitimately believe it was hard work that gets them to the top distance runner when in reality they were the top runner the day they arrived out of shape.

Often it comes down to what we set our goals on and hope to attain. Hearing a kid who just won their conference mile be critical of themselves as a runner because they missed the state record is simply a glimpse into their psyche. I asked someone onetime what they thought it said to other athletes when someone so dominant dismisses their talent and proclaims it is only hard work that got them there ( of course I would like to say it was the coaching)?

Find a way to be humble about your talent, but at the same time acknowledge it and account for it benefitting your game.

I'm sure we have all witnessed the opposite of this situation. When a sibling is outstanding and their seemingly genetically related relative comes off as "lazy" because they can't live up to the same level of excellence.
 
I didn't hear Ray's speech and I'm not going to look it up. If the speech was tailored to athletics only, then yeah I'll agree with yakyak. I prefer when an athlete in that position tailors his speech to include hard work for ALL walks of life. Athletically, academically, vocation, military, etc.

And yeah, Ray was a BEAST. at UConn and 1st few years in the league. But without elite work ethic hes not a HOFer
 
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