#PACtion™ 2024

[reganaustinjames]

1) Manchester lost 17 games in a row over 3 seasons (NOV 21 - SEP 23). Only the last 6 of that streak happened with the current coach. Not sure how anything that happens this year would "tell ya what you need to know about the future."

2) Manchester has an excellent history of winning. If you change coaches again after this year, that means you'd have had 4 coaches in 7 years. That's something the 1999-2020 Browns would have done. Is that really what Manchester has become?

3) I know you're just an alum venting, but if the administration takes on the same attitude you're sharing here . . . while losing might not be acceptable, but it sure is going to become awful frequent.

Well said, even the best organizations have to experience a brief period of losing in order for a new winning formula to take hold, be that led by the current coach who has to make adjustments or a new coach with fresher ideas (that again, take time to implement). It seems that no one has any patience anymore; that, combined with expectations that are at times unrealistic, leads to perpetual mediocrity... at best. The Steelers have had 3 head coaches in the last 55 years; in that time, they've also won 6 Lombardi's, played for 2 others, and are seemingly always around .500 even in their worst years. Coincidence?

 

[Bluestreakoffice]

Well said, even the best organizations have to experience a brief period of losing in order for a new winning formula to take hold, be that led by the current coach who has to make adjustments or a new coach with fresher ideas (that again, take time to implement). It seems that no one has any patience anymore; that, combined with expectations that are at times unrealistic, leads to perpetual mediocrity... at best. The Steelers have had 3 head coaches in the last 55 years; in that time, they've also won 6 Lombardi's, played for 2 others, and are seemingly always around .500 even in their worst years. Coincidence?

You are on the right track...the Pro's thou can draft and or trade for talent that will keep them winning...have to have stability and a great read of talent. In high school you have to play with the kids you have...the jimmies and the joes can make a coach look great. In this case, Kevin Stacy has the pedigree and the experiences to run a program...has to get the kids to want to come out and play the game...then he has to find a way to run an offense and defense with the kids he has...that in itself is the beauty of high school ball. I will say this...once you get the kids to have the success of winning games...that will help you win games that maybe you shouldn't have. This will be year two...the seniors and juniors will have a year of knowing the system and the terminology...now he can start to build off of that

 

[cuyahogacuse]

I’m just saying, I’m glad the former PAC school didn’t give up on the coach that replaced the one who founded the program, when he went 1-19 in the first two seasons, after taking over that 2-8 outfit.

50-27 in the seven years since then.

Rebuilds take time. Impatience just prolongs the process.

 

[TheCoach@1977]

This is a follow-up to my original response to this post, which was quite simple on Saturday morning. There's plenty to unpack in this post. I'll start with the interesting fact that this individual created an account after midnight on a Friday night/Saturday morning and made a ranting post at 1:22 AM, and then has not been back on the board since? Who does that? But that is besides the point.

There are enough breadcrumbs in the post that it took only about ten minutes to identify the player in question. Hoban sent 11 seniors from their 2018 team to play college football. The ABJ lists them, along with the other 22 student athletes that pursued athletic careers beyond high school here. Two of the 11 played D1; two played FCS; the other seven played D3. One of those two is currently a grad assistant at Wisconsin.

I hesitated to post a longer response until now, as I sought to uncover some facts. The issues referenced all occurred before my family first became associated with CVCA. But since Saturday morning, I have been able to confirm that this individual was enrolled at CVCA during the 2013-14 school year - his 8th grade year (source: a CVCA yearbook). He was not on the football team. In fact, he was not on any athletic team. He was not at CVCA for 7th grade. Beyond these details, very little is known. The student turned up at Hoban as a freshman and for all intents and purposes, balled out, won three titles and went D1.

I will add that from his online presence, it appears that life has turned out very well. And I hope this continues for him.

Now to the oddities. Why dredge up issues from 11 years ago? Why post on a Friday night/Saturday morning overnight? So many questions.

Here's the reality. The 2013-16 CVCA varsity football teams were amongst the worst in program history. CVCA went 5-5 in 2013 - the year this student was in 8th grade, and then went a collective 3-27 the next three seasons across two coaching staffs. Both staffs had great success at the school - in one case before that four-year period and in the other case, after that period ended. I guarantee neither staff forgot how to coach.

To @the123kidz' original point, sometimes the talent or the work ethic or leadership isn't there at the varsity level. You see this at all levels of sport.

Here's another thing I know. That 2013 7th/8th grade football team was loaded. Those are the kids that collectively brought CVCA back as juniors and seniors in 2017 and 2018. Chief among them was Tre Tucker, with whom this student would eventually be a teammate at Cincinnati. This individual would have no doubt accelerated that rebuild.

I have no idea why this young man did not participate in athletics at CVCA. What I do know is that football coaches are in the business of shaping lives, maximizing talent and trying to win games.

There are strong accusations in the original post. Knowing , there simply has to be more to the story. But does it really matter? Seems it worked out well for all concerned.

Eleven years is a long time to simmer. As I said in my original post, I am hopeful that success continues to follow the now young man. And I hope that the poster can move on.

Judging by the investigation you ran and gathered, which is quite funny and kind of weird lol, I'm guessing you obviously work at CVCA. By the way I see you also discovered that he was admitted and attended for full a year. He chose not to play middle school ball at CVCA because it was better for him to play elsewhere where he can play against great competition and develop. It worked out well for him. The year before that (7th) he won a national championship playing for Cuyahoga Falls. A team that played against older teams most of the season and achieved their goal of winning the natty. Moved onto to Hoban and started as a freshman under Coach Tim Tyrell and loved his time there. He left CVCA for Hoban because it was better fit for him to still get a great education, compete for state titles, and grow as a player in hopes to get a scholarship to pay for his college. Which he did. He and Tre were teammates at Cincinnati, and we knew Tre growing up. We played and trained in the same circles. Great kid and not surprised he's in the NFL with the Raiders. And yes, he's now a grad assistant at Wisconsin with Coach Fickell and is working his way up in the college ranks as a coach. Just like pretty much how all other coaches started, even some of the great ones who he's had, and still having, the privilege of learning from and developing relationships with. He's having quite the experience and has the privilege of learning more about the actual game of football than the common fan who just sits and watches whatever school or team they like. A lot of the lessons he learned at Hoban's program, helped him for college and for where he's heading now. Now you said my "rant" was posted at 1:22 am. How do you know that wasn't the time where I was that day. What if I was actually somewhere 3 hours behind EST time? The only thing that upset me in the original post I responded to was when the person alluded that the kids on those teams that barely won games were not the hardest workers or the toughest. Yes, CVCA doesn't have the talent of the premier programs like Hoban and others, but I actually knew and even coached some of those kids personally. They did work hard, and some came from tough backgrounds. But guess what, until Larlham arrived, there was NOBODY in that building football wise that was coaching or showing those kids the work habits, and formula to be great players. Someone showing how to actually have a healthy, successful and winning program and culture that reflects the school. No surprise Dan eventually turned it around. One of those kids even reminded just last week how one day they were in practice in August of 2015, Dan's first year, and those kids from that 7th and 8th grade team you were referring too, said they actually thought they had a chance to be good that year. Wonder why? Just like the great coach John McKissick once said players win games, coaches lose them. Because they said they didn't believe what they were doing up until Dan arrived. Now did that team win a game that year, no. But it really shows you the mess Dan took over and if you know about what it takes to actually takes to cultivate a winning program and players from nothing, it takes time. That year (2015) their first game was against Woodridge. You know what a student told Coach Larlham that day during his class he was teaching, "I hope you guys lose tonight." Dan informed the team of it in his pregame speech that day. You think at that time that would have happened at schools and communities who actually backed and supported their programs? We both know the answer to that....... CVCA has some great people there. Some I still talk to and see frequently today. You alleged to know all the characters of the people at that school, would you like me to post some more topics that you can go and investigate? Because I got time today. God bless!

 

[330Warrior]

@TheCoach@1977 I was an underclassman player at that time and everything you said is 100% true! The story about coach Larlham and what the student said to him that day is true. Most of us on the team didn't feal the school really cared about football before Larlham came. People used to make comments to us like that all the time. A few soccer players used to joke about how they weren't coming to our games because we're just going to lose. That's sounds like a great environment for a player to grow in, right? lol. I had two friends who were starters on Woodridge, both went to play college ball, they said they thought CVCA up to that point "had no heart." Our weight room sessions were a joke before Larlham, practices and game prep were night and day before Larlham. We were very unprepared compared to many of our opponents. Players didn't realize the difference till we saw it. For @123kidz to insinuate that those upperclassmen didn't work hard or weren't leaders comes across as a pretty condescending statement to make. I was there, every single day. Knew them personally. Those upperclassmen were put in a tough spot. They had a coaching change, and a big culture shock. We worked very hard and a lot of kid's really wanted it but didn't have coaches leading them in the right direction. Those seniors were also demanded to be leaders every day as well and some did step up and speak and try to lead, even when we were already 0-3 in 2015. I remember thanking one of them at halftime. They had to break a lot of the habits they thought were good but were bad. Some of what @123kidz is true but it sounds like you're just saying it was the players. And by the way there were actually a lot of students who did make it past admissions, who were great kids and players, that simply didn't choose CVCA and/or left like in @TheCoach@1977's kids' case. More than you think. The real question is why do so many people leave? Can't just be everyone else's fault. Those people went on to be great students and players elsewhere. I see @cuyahogacuse went on to investigate and found one already. Guess what, keep looking there's more. I felt bad for a lot of my teammates whose families were really invested, because they didn't have a voice. Salute to coach Larlham and all he did while he was there. Hope they didn't take him for granted. Once he got the program going and got a better staff around him by 2019 and 20', he had something great going. He'll be great in his next gig as a head coach.

 

[sheldoncooper]

This is the problem. Should the Browns have expectations because of all the championships they won in the 50s?

Everyone from Manchester thinks they're some staple football program in Ohio.....did you win a lot of games with France, yes, yes you did.....ya went to 1 state finals and another final four. You carry a record of 23-27 in 27 total playoff appearances.

Now, those 27 appearances are enough to be tied for 18th most appearances all-time in the state! Did you also know that Manchester is THE ONLY TEAM in the top 18 all-time appearances with a LOSING record in the playoffs? The next closest record is 34-26 with 1 championship.

In fact, all other 18 teams ahead of Manchester hold a combined playoff record of 1063-489 with 78 state titles.

Moral of the story - Manchester and France spent a lot of time winning meaningless games against lesser opponents and when the lights came on, and it was time to win big games (playoff games) they just flat out haven't gotten it done.

So let's all stop acting like Manchester has this historic championship winning tradition it MUST uphold - take a nice shot of reality, and give a promising young coach more of a chance/opportunity than 2 freaking years. He took over a team that went 0-10....year 2 "expectations" should be 5-5 and if he somehow manages to do that or even do better than that - be super happy and excited.

Raylan, I'm not venting and I'm not upset. All I'm saying is that in high school football, you either have "it" or you don't. We'll know sooner than later. Good coaches turn around programs quickly. If Stacy wins 5 games or close to it with good competitiveness all around, I think he's good to go and is a keeper. You wouldn't tell me that if they go 1-9 again that he's on solid footing woulda ya?

He’s not going anywhere … regardless of how many wins he has this year, he will be given plenty of time to turn things around. They are doing the same thing with Boys basketball, going into year four and new coach hasn’t had a winning season yet.

 

[sheldoncooper]

He’s not going anywhere … regardless of how many wins he has this year, he will be given plenty of time to turn things around. They are doing the same thing with Boys basketball, going into year four and new coach hasn’t had a winning season yet.

Practicing patience in Pantherland … still waiting for the Manchester rd. Bellstore to build the new combo Bellstore with a DQ !

 

[Raylan_Givens]

God bless!

He'll be great in his next gig as a head coach.

Congrats on your 2nd & 1st posts. A suggestion for when you come back- Every couple of sentences hit RETURN twice at the end. That will give the reader the perception of a new paragraph.

Otherwise your post(s) just sit there like a big block of ravings from a lunatic regardless of what you’re actually saying.

Aside from that, I gathered that you both feel Larlham was good for CVCA program? Cool. Was anyone disputing that? I must have missed it if they did.

 

[Raylan_Givens]

Raylan, I'm not venting and I'm not upset. All I'm saying is that in high school football, you either have "it" or you don't. We'll know sooner than later. Good coaches turn around programs quickly. If Stacy wins 5 games or close to it with good competitiveness all around, I think he's good to go and is a keeper. You wouldn't tell me that if they go 1-9 again that he's on solid footing woulda ya?

If Manchester goes 0-10,1-9,1-9 in 3 consecutive years with 2 different coaches … that’s a talent problem not a coaching one.

Not sure why but I find your “he better win or he’s gone, we’re Manchester, we’re better that this” attitude laughably annoying. Especially from a guy who’s got young kids.

That said, have no doubt they’ll be better in the 2nd year of his program.

 

[ShootNation]

I think we greatly overestimate the ability of coaches to produce wins compared to the talent they have. The absolute best of the best in the High School game produce something around +2 additional wins a season, the worst of the worst cost their teams -3. For the PAC especially you've got schools with roughly something like 400 boys in the school, somewhere around 10% of them actually play football, of that 10% less than 50% are even average athletes, so we're talking maybe there's 20ish kids grades 9-12 in the school right now that are just ok at sports and maybe 5-7 that are actually good and as a coach you have no control over what those kids are built like and what they're capable of doing athletically. Some years you'll have no size, some years no speed, some years too many of the same position. What can a coach realistically do there other than get them in the weight room and scheme the game the best he can to suit what he has? Can he make his DL standup again a 50lbs size difference? Make his cornerbacks faster? Wide Receivers taller? And that's where the games are won and lost at this level, you can keep more of them close with great coaching but winning games consistently takes actual talent on the field and the ability for those athletes to make plays. I watched Manchester play Carrollton last year and it was one of our worst teams in recent memory, even with that I don't think there were more than 4 players on the Panthers side that would have factored in at all if they came to us and most of them would have just been marginal upgrades or rotational players and you're expecting those kids to win games in the league when they're playing against the level of talent the league had this year (Snyder, Satterfield, Kopec, Colluci, Smiley, etc)? I just don't see it.

 

[the123kidz]

Judging by the investigation you ran and gathered, which is quite funny and kind of weird lol, I'm guessing you obviously work at CVCA. By the way I see you also discovered that he was admitted and attended for full a year. He chose not to play middle school ball at CVCA because it was better for him to play elsewhere where he can play against great competition and develop. It worked out well for him. The year before that (7th) he won a national championship playing for Cuyahoga Falls. A team that played against older teams most of the season and achieved their goal of winning the natty. Moved onto to Hoban and started as a freshman under Coach Tim Tyrell and loved his time there. He left CVCA for Hoban because it was better fit for him to still get a great education, compete for state titles, and grow as a player in hopes to get a scholarship to pay for his college. Which he did. He and Tre were teammates at Cincinnati, and we knew Tre growing up. We played and trained in the same circles. Great kid and not surprised he's in the NFL with the Raiders. And yes, he's now a grad assistant at Wisconsin with Coach Fickell and is working his way up in the college ranks as a coach. Just like pretty much how all other coaches started, even some of the great ones who he's had, and still having, the privilege of learning from and developing relationships with. He's having quite the experience and has the privilege of learning more about the actual game of football than the common fan who just sits and watches whatever school or team they like. A lot of the lessons he learned at Hoban's program, helped him for college and for where he's heading now. Now you said my "rant" was posted at 1:22 am. How do you know that wasn't the time where I was that day. What if I was actually somewhere 3 hours behind EST time? The only thing that upset me in the original post I responded to was when the person alluded that the kids on those teams that barely won games were not the hardest workers or the toughest. Yes, CVCA doesn't have the talent of the premier programs like Hoban and others, but I actually knew and even coached some of those kids personally. They did work hard, and some came from tough backgrounds. But guess what, until Larlham arrived, there was NOBODY in that building football wise that was coaching or showing those kids the work habits, and formula to be great players. Someone showing how to actually have a healthy, successful and winning program and culture that reflects the school. No surprise Dan eventually turned it around. One of those kids even reminded just last week how one day they were in practice in August of 2015, Dan's first year, and those kids from that 7th and 8th grade team you were referring too, said they actually thought they had a chance to be good that year. Wonder why? Just like the great coach John McKissick once said players win games, coaches lose them. Because they said they didn't believe what they were doing up until Dan arrived. Now did that team win a game that year, no. But it really shows you the mess Dan took over and if you know about what it takes to actually takes to cultivate a winning program and players from nothing, it takes time. That year (2015) their first game was against Woodridge. You know what a student told Coach Larlham that day during his class he was teaching, "I hope you guys lose tonight." Dan informed the team of it in his pregame speech that day. You think at that time that would have happened at schools and communities who actually backed and supported their programs? We both know the answer to that....... CVCA has some great people there. Some I still talk to and see frequently today. You alleged to know all the characters of the people at that school, would you like me to post some more topics that you can go and investigate? Because I got time today. God bless!

@TheCoach@1977 Maybe my post wasn't clear, you will find no bigger supporter of Dan Larlham than me. He and his staff turned what was a disaster of a program into a winner and I am thankful that my son was able to play for him. My son excelled under his coaching and became a D4 all-state performer his senior year. I was involved before Larlham and was involved until his time ended. If you know that many people in the program then you definitely know me. It would be impossible for you to not know me. I'm sure we could have a beer together and tell each other great stories. I wish your son did stay at CVCA and play with Tre, I wish Mike O'Horo had stayed as well. I think if he stayed there would be a state champion banner at CVCA. In the end it sounds like we both did what we thought was best for OUR boys,.

 

[the123kidz]

I think we greatly overestimate the ability of coaches to produce wins compared to the talent they have. The absolute best of the best in the High School game produce something around +2 additional wins a season, the worst of the worst cost their teams -3. For the PAC especially you've got schools with roughly something like 400 boys in the school, somewhere around 10% of them actually play football, of that 10% less than 50% are even average athletes, so we're talking maybe there's 20ish kids grades 9-12 in the school right now that are just ok at sports and maybe 5-7 that are actually good and as a coach you have no control over what those kids are built like and what they're capable of doing athletically. Some years you'll have no size, some years no speed, some years too many of the same position. What can a coach realistically do there other than get them in the weight room and scheme the game the best he can to suit what he has? Can he make his DL standup again a 50lbs size difference? Make his cornerbacks faster? Wide Receivers taller? And that's where the games are won and lost at this level, you can keep more of them close with great coaching but winning games consistently takes actual talent on the field and the ability for those athletes to make plays. I watched Manchester play Carrollton last year and it was one of our worst teams in recent memory, even with that I don't think there were more than 4 players on the Panthers side that would have factored in at all if they came to us and most of them would have just been marginal upgrades or rotational players and you're expecting those kids to win games in the league when they're playing against the level of talent the league had this year (Snyder, Satterfield, Kopec, Colluci, Smiley, etc)? I just don't see it.

Everyone knows I'm not a Manchester supporter but that is an example of a program that under Koach France didn't seem to have a problem having a powerhouse of a program with kids who were an inch too short, a step too slow. Maybe he's an outlier?

 

[ShootNation]

Everyone knows I'm not a Manchester supporter but that is an example of a program that under Koach France didn't seem to have a problem having a powerhouse of a program with kids who were an inch too short, a step too slow. Maybe he's an outlier?

They also didn't play Canton South, Northwest, or Orville regularly during his tenure there and had a ton of 1st and 2nd round exits during 8-10 win regular seasons.

'04- 10-0 - First round exit
'05- 9-1 - Second round exit
'06- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'07- 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'08- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'09- 9-1 - First round exit
'10- 10-0 - Third round exit
'11- 7-3 - First round exit
'12- 7-3 - Second round exit
'13 - 9-1 - Fourth round exit
'14 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'15 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'16 - 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'17 - 8-2 - Second round exit
'18 - 7-3 - Third round exit
'19 - 7-3 - Third round exit


So in France's final 16 seasons the Panthers only advanced beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs 4 times and missed them entirely in 6 of those seasons. Now France was still an incredible Coach, one of the best in small school history, but without the final two seasons that featured THE BEST PLAYER IN SCHOOL HISTORY doing everything for the Panthers it's a pretty pedestrian looking record. In a lot of ways France was a master of scheduling who benefited drastically from a very weak conference for a large portion of his tenure and gets remembered fondly because of that. It's incredibly telling to me that during Vic Whiting's run at Northwest the Panthers and France NEVER once scheduled their next door neighbor but instead took trips to Black River, Mogadore, and Smithville year after year instead

 

[the123kidz]

They also didn't play Canton South, Northwest, or Orville regularly during his tenure there and had a ton of 1st and 2nd round exits during 8-10 win regular seasons.

'04- 10-0 - First round exit
'05- 9-1 - Second round exit
'06- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'07- 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'08- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'09- 9-1 - First round exit
'10- 10-0 - Third round exit
'11- 7-3 - First round exit
'12- 7-3 - Second round exit
'13 - 9-1 - Fourth round exit
'14 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'15 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'16 - 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'17 - 8-2 - Second round exit
'18 - 7-3 - Third round exit
'19 - 7-3 - Third round exit


So in France's final 16 seasons the Panthers only advanced beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs 4 times and missed them entirely in 6 of those seasons. Now France was still an incredible Coach, one of the best in small school history, but without the final two seasons that featured THE BEST PLAYER IN SCHOOL HISTORY doing everything for the Panthers it's a pretty pedestrian looking record. In a lot of ways France was a master of scheduling who benefited drastically from a very weak conference for a large portion of his tenure and gets remembered fondly because of that. It's incredibly telling to me that during Vic Whiting's run at Northwest the Panthers and France NEVER once scheduled their next door neighbor but instead took trips to Black River, Mogadore, and Smithville year after year instead

I can't imagine how good the advanced scouting department was at little old Manchester to know exactly which teams to avoid when making schedules a few years in advance? Again I'm not a Manchester guy and the guys in here who are are better able to carry the torch for them but your argument doesn't hold much weight. Especially when you see the kids who typically make up a Manchester football team. Honestly it doesn't sound like you have seen enough Manchester football pre Ethan right to make that statement and have it mean anything.

 

[Rich Kotite]

I can't imagine how good the advanced scouting department was at little old Manchester to know exactly which teams to avoid when making schedules a few years in advance? Again I'm not a Manchester guy and the guys in here who are are better able to carry the torch for them but your argument doesn't hold much weight. Especially when you see the kids who typically make up a Manchester football team. Honestly it doesn't sound like you have seen enough Manchester football pre Ethan right to make that statement and have it mean anything.

I would just ask this:

What has Carrollton done?

To use talk radio lexicon, I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Rich Kotite]

I digitally detox for a couple days and PACtion™ gets hotter than the shrimp cocktail sauce I used today on our jumbo shrimp.

 

[SpeedSafety25]

If Manchester goes 0-10,1-9,1-9 in 3 consecutive years with 2 different coaches … that’s a talent problem not a coaching one.

Not sure why but I find your “he better win or he’s gone, we’re Manchester, we’re better that this” attitude laughably annoying. Especially from a guy who’s got young kids.

That said, have no doubt they’ll be better in the 2nd year of his program.

I hope you are right. I did see some good things out of his coaching last year. I'm certainly not trying to dog him. It's a tough world out there- what can I say? Regarding my young kids, I teach them how to win, that you have to work hard for small wins. It's not given and mommy won't always be there to wipe your snot.
When I was at Manchester we didn't have big guys, fast guys, etc. we just won. Regarding the charge Manchester scheduled weak, man, I'm not sure that is a fair statement. Hamilton Badin? Green? Copley? Through the years we played tough teams. Late 90s poor Northwest had to suffer under our paw many times.
If you do not set good expectations and apply a little pressure, people/coaches can settle and not give the kids their best.

 

[Raylan_Givens]

Regarding my young kids, I teach them how to win, that you have to work hard for small wins. It's not given and mommy won't always be there to wipe your snot.

Completely agree with this. The one thing I'd caution you on - there's a really fine line between wiping snot for the kids & calling for a coach to be fired.

Might just be the old fogey in me, but the amount of parents who have problems with HS coaches seems to have grown exponentially as kids have moved from playing little league & rec/CYO bball to travel teams & AAU.

Ironically enough, more kids play travel baseball & AAU now than ever before - and yet more MLB & NBA players are foreign born than ever before. Go figure...

 

[ShootNation]

I can't imagine how good the advanced scouting department was at little old Manchester to know exactly which teams to avoid when making schedules a few years in advance? Again I'm not a Manchester guy and the guys in here who are are better able to carry the torch for them but your argument doesn't hold much weight. Especially when you see the kids who typically make up a Manchester football team. Honestly it doesn't sound like you have seen enough Manchester football pre Ethan right to make that statement and have it mean anything.

So weird you guys have built up this myth of what Manchester was during the "modern" France era, you talk about them as if they were Kirtland or Ironton with trips year after year to the state title games. They were certainly solid for a small school but their lackluster showings in the playoffs tell the bigger story. They were good when they were good, pedestrian when they were pedestrian, and likely had their records inflated on a yearly basis by playing a paltry regular season schedule

 

[Rich Kotite]

They also didn't play Canton South, Northwest, or Orville regularly during his tenure there and had a ton of 1st and 2nd round exits during 8-10 win regular seasons.

'04- 10-0 - First round exit
'05- 9-1 - Second round exit
'06- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'07- 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'08- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'09- 9-1 - First round exit
'10- 10-0 - Third round exit
'11- 7-3 - First round exit
'12- 7-3 - Second round exit
'13 - 9-1 - Fourth round exit
'14 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'15 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'16 - 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'17 - 8-2 - Second round exit
'18 - 7-3 - Third round exit
'19 - 7-3 - Third round exit


So in France's final 16 seasons the Panthers only advanced beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs 4 times and missed them entirely in 6 of those seasons. Now France was still an incredible Coach, one of the best in small school history, but without the final two seasons that featured THE BEST PLAYER IN SCHOOL HISTORY doing everything for the Panthers it's a pretty pedestrian looking record. In a lot of ways France was a master of scheduling who benefited drastically from a very weak conference for a large portion of his tenure and gets remembered fondly because of that. It's incredibly telling to me that during Vic Whiting's run at Northwest the Panthers and France NEVER once scheduled their next door neighbor but instead took trips to Black River, Mogadore, and Smithville year after year instead

Carrollton's playoff legacy is about as solid as The Balkan region's claim to political stability.

 

[Rich Kotite]

So weird you guys have built up this myth of what Manchester was during the "modern" France era, you talk about them as if they were Kirtland or Ironton with trips year after year to the state title games. They were certainly solid for a small school but their lackluster showings in the playoffs tell the bigger story. They were good when they were good, pedestrian when they were pedestrian, and likely had their records inflated on a yearly basis by playing a paltry regular season schedule

It's much like Louisville beating up on Carrollton almost every year.

 

[Rich Kotite]

Carrollton's dream is to rip away Canton South and Northwest to the EBC. That dream is about as realistic as Rosie O'Donnell being a size 2.

 

[Rich Kotite]

Well said, even the best organizations have to experience a brief period of losing in order for a new winning formula to take hold, be that led by the current coach who has to make adjustments or a new coach with fresher ideas (that again, take time to implement). It seems that no one has any patience anymore; that, combined with expectations that are at times unrealistic, leads to perpetual mediocrity... at best. The Steelers have had 3 head coaches in the last 55 years; in that time, they've also won 6 Lombardi's, played for 2 others, and are seemingly always around .500 even in their worst years. Coincidence?

expand...

Well said, even the best organizations have to experience a brief period of losing in order for a new winning formula to take hold

Sounds like the Massillon Burger King.

 

[Rich Kotite]

So weird you guys have built up this myth of what Manchester was during the "modern" France era, you talk about them as if they were Kirtland or Ironton with trips year after year to the state title games. They were certainly solid for a small school but their lackluster showings in the playoffs tell the bigger story. They were good when they were good, pedestrian when they were pedestrian, and likely had their records inflated on a yearly basis by playing a paltry regular season schedule

The modern Jim France Era at least had a couple deep playoff runs. The Carrollton playoff legacy is Vichy France.

 

[Rich Kotite]

Well, I'd figure you'd gotta be the top 16 in the region at least. Another 0-10, 1-9 and that will tell ya what you need to know about the future. The expectations aren't to win the region nor be in the top part of it. But, as a panther grad who has expectations of winning (I and all my teammates were and demanded it of ourselves) so shall it be. Yes be frank, losing is just not acceptable. Can't take that? Maybe this job isn't for you. The pancake factory in Brewster might be more of the place for you. TOUGH.

The pancake factory in Brewster might be more of the place for you. TOUGH.

Pancake factory in Brewster? You mean Fairless Flapjacks, LLC?

Also it's TUFF not tough.

 

[7Diamond]

Early in my career, I had a boss that said I should be very concerned if he did NOT have expectations of me because that meant he had no confidence in me, that I was dead to him and that he had no use of me. On the flip side, for the expectations he had of me, I needed to let him know what resources I needed for the job, what I could accomplish, and remind him to stand down and let me do the job my way (otherwise, why did you hire me!).

Realistic expectations should exist (for any situation). Nobody from Manchester is saying they have to be the best now, but the program does need to show improvement. The first year met that hurdle - I was most impressed with how Coach Stacy kept those kids motivated. Don't forget that those kids were winners in youth and middle school ball, so the kids expect that of themselves also. They want someone that is behind them, pushing them to excel.

Last comment, I'd say that most people that leave a job (on their own choice) do it not because there are expectations, but because they have someone micromanaging them or withholding resources for them to do the job as they see fit.

 

[Raylan_Givens]

Early in my career, I had a boss that said I should be very concerned if he did NOT have expectations of me because that meant he had no confidence in me, that I was dead to him and that he had no use of me. On the flip side, for the expectations he had of me, I needed to let him know what resources I needed for the job, what I could accomplish, and remind him to stand down and let me do the job my way (otherwise, why did you hire me!).

Realistic expectations should exist (for any situation). Nobody from Manchester is saying they have to be the best now, but the program does need to show improvement. The first year met that hurdle - I was most impressed with how Coach Stacy kept those kids motivated. Don't forget that those kids were winners in youth and middle school ball, so the kids expect that of themselves also. They want someone that is behind them, pushing them to excel.

Last comment, I'd say that most people that leave a job (on their own choice) do it not because there are expectations, but because they have someone micromanaging them or withholding resources for them to do the job as they see fit.

Well said!

 

[Rich Kotite]

Early in my career, I had a boss that said I should be very concerned if he did NOT have expectations of me because that meant he had no confidence in me, that I was dead to him and that he had no use of me. On the flip side, for the expectations he had of me, I needed to let him know what resources I needed for the job, what I could accomplish, and remind him to stand down and let me do the job my way (otherwise, why did you hire me!).

Realistic expectations should exist (for any situation). Nobody from Manchester is saying they have to be the best now, but the program does need to show improvement. The first year met that hurdle - I was most impressed with how Coach Stacy kept those kids motivated. Don't forget that those kids were winners in youth and middle school ball, so the kids expect that of themselves also. They want someone that is behind them, pushing them to excel.

Last comment, I'd say that most people that leave a job (on their own choice) do it not because there are expectations, but because they have someone micromanaging them or withholding resources for them to do the job as they see fit.

Early in my career I was doing extensive business overseas. It was very complicated and my boss insisted on always getting a 10% cut of the money. This was very troubling as I had my own personal habits and activities that I enjoyed and they are very expensive. I used to like to record my fun on a laptop but I lost it.

 

[ripvanwinkle]

They also didn't play Canton South, Northwest, or Orville regularly during his tenure there and had a ton of 1st and 2nd round exits during 8-10 win regular seasons.

'04- 10-0 - First round exit
'05- 9-1 - Second round exit
'06- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'07- 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'08- 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'09- 9-1 - First round exit
'10- 10-0 - Third round exit
'11- 7-3 - First round exit
'12- 7-3 - Second round exit
'13 - 9-1 - Fourth round exit
'14 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'15 - 5-5 - Didn't qualify
'16 - 7-3 - Didn't qualify
'17 - 8-2 - Second round exit
'18 - 7-3 - Third round exit
'19 - 7-3 - Third round exit


So in France's final 16 seasons the Panthers only advanced beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs 4 times and missed them entirely in 6 of those seasons. Now France was still an incredible Coach, one of the best in small school history, but without the final two seasons that featured THE BEST PLAYER IN SCHOOL HISTORY doing everything for the Panthers it's a pretty pedestrian looking record. In a lot of ways France was a master of scheduling who benefited drastically from a very weak conference for a large portion of his tenure and gets remembered fondly because of that. It's incredibly telling to me that during Vic Whiting's run at Northwest the Panthers and France NEVER once scheduled their next door neighbor but instead took trips to Black River, Mogadore, and Smithville year after year instead

Can we vote this doofus off the island?

 

[CasualFan24]

Nobody on this forum indicated he had to be 10-0, pac champs, etc. The argument was we need to see clear lines of improvement. My argument was if they hover around the same type of record and don't make a 16 team playoff, I feel ya gotta go. Also, we all knew the last coach, who was in his mid 60s (not trying to be ageist here for my older friends), wasnt gonna cut it. During my day we beat a lot of high profile teams and I was on that state run. We beat everyone and only lost to state champs 3 years in a row. That's not to shabby.
I'm giving Stacy a chance. I'm not nocking him, not at all. But, 2 years is enough to see what you are working with. I am pulling for the guy, am on his side wishing him the best. But hard decisions need to made sooner than later if given the CORRECT information (improvement, kids getting better, injuries?, relationship with school and parents, etc).

No one is rooting against Coach Stacy and Manchester fans are more than willing to give him enough time to build his program. That said, there are expectations and it is because of the history.

To call all those wins meaningless is insulting to the coaches, the players, and the community. You play games for a purpose, to win. For a long time we played games in Ohio with no playoffs, or with limited playoffs with very little chance of qualifying. The regular season is all we had. Either they count or the don't. If they don't, then why play them at all?

Since 1941 when Manchester fielded its first football team, the school has won roughly 70 percent of its games. Show me a school that wouldn't love to have that kind of winning percentage over more than 80 years.

For years before there was such a thing as competitive balance, Manchester played in regions chock full of schools that played in DIV or DV with DI level talent on their rosters. How they qualified for those regions has been debated for years, but since they were in our region, we had to play them. In many cases we lost in the first or second round of the playoffs to teams that were state finalists or state champions. In some cases, you could argue that the actual state championship had been played in Week 1 or Week 2 of the playoffs.

In my quick reading of available history, in the playoffs Manchester has lost to the eventual state champion at least seven times; a state finalist four times, and a state semi-finalist three times. So, in roughly 50% of the years Manchester has qualified for the playoffs, they've been knocked out by a team that reached the Final Four.

There's a lot to be said for getting to the postseason. There's a lot to be said for winning consistently. And there are certainly any numbers of communities who would love to be in Manchester's shoes.

So, yes, there are expectations. There are also a lot of people with good football knowledge who follow the program and they know it will take time to rebuild. Usually, I have a lot of respect for your posts; they're typically well thought out. That one wasn't

So I'm a Kevin Stacy supporter, and a Northwest supporter (so naturally I do not care for Manchester.) So I'm a little triggered when Manchester folks want to put expectations out there that this is the make or break year for Stacy in year 2. IMO - ya'll have screwed up the coaching hires since Koach retired (I think you can all agree on this) and now that you finally have a legitimate person captaining the ship, you want to say that year 2 is make or break. Statements like this set me off - make me immediately feel like you guys don't deserve this guy.

That is the basis for my attack on Manchester history in my previous post. Nothing I said in that post (looking past my opinions) is incorrect. Great regular season records under France -very little post season success. That said, I'm sure tons of programs out there would trade for Manchester's success - still doesn't change the facts about how those wins added up, and what those teams did in the post season.

Lastly - the problems at Manchester the last several years don't even really have all the much to do with the coach of the football team. There has been a culture change at the school in general. Did you know that football had to rearrange time on the field last year because the band had scheduled time, and that this happened more than once? You all think that would have ever happened under France? What do you think it's going to be like with the new turf field? France had so much power in that school and when he left, everyone else seized their piece of the pie...truth be told, football is no longer the end all be all at Manchester like it was before - and the faithful that frequent this thread at too far removed from the program to see those things changing.....