OHSWCA Announces 2021 Wrestling Duals Championship

Pantherontheporch

Well-known member

I guess they went by last year (district results?) minus the starting seniors to select the 16 teams for each division. When Elder wrestled Centerville at their quad on December 19 a spot in the Duals was up for grabs, which the Elks won. Presumably LaSalle will wrestle Fairfield sometime with the winner grabbing the second berth from the Kettering district.
Is this how it worked before the OHSAA took over from the coaches a while back?
 

bearcatrunner

Active member
Yeah I am not sure how this is working. Especially in the SW. Those are not the 4 best teams in SW Ohio and they are not ranked correctly either. Personally it just depends on if Lasalle has everyone. However, at the start of the season Centerville would be my choice for #1, followed by LaSalle at #2. If you could promise me that Lasalle has everyone in their lineup that Boro has ranked then they would be #1. Did Elder have a lot of people hurt during it's match with Colerain. Also where is Mason? I think Fairfield could be a very good team I just have not seen much about them this year.
 

Iroquois

Well-known member
Yeah I am not sure how this is working. Especially in the SW. Those are not the 4 best teams in SW Ohio and they are not ranked correctly either. Personally it just depends on if Lasalle has everyone. However, at the start of the season Centerville would be my choice for #1, followed by LaSalle at #2. If you could promise me that Lasalle has everyone in their lineup that Boro has ranked then they would be #1. Did Elder have a lot of people hurt during it's match with Colerain. Also where is Mason? I think Fairfield could be a very good team I just have not seen much about them this year.
Every score I see for Elder and Moeller they are missing all kinds of wrestlers, not sure what's going on at those two schools?
 

bearcatrunner

Active member
Anyone know the criteria? I'm curious when they made the team decisions and how they did it? No way those in the know don't come on this board to get information. You would think if the decisions were made recently, which they would have had to be, that they would know the results of some of the earlier matches. I know we are not talking about Championship contenders here but teams take a lot of pride in being selected for these things. A shame that something that should be seen as a positive is clearly wrong. I'll shut up now as clearly nobody else cares about this.
 

bucksman

Moderator
The selection of four teams per district tournament was done based on the formula that was used back when the OHSWCA picked the eight teams that would compete in the state duals invitational (two teams per district tournament, total of eight). The four teams per district tournament are being pared down to two by play-in matches. Then those eight teams will meet in the state duals invitational in early February.
 

bucksman

Moderator
I received some CLARIFICATION.
Yes, it was a formula from OHSWCA. However, it's different than the one that was used in the state duals invitational prior to the OHSAA sanctioning the tournament.
Here was the formula:
10 points per underclass state qualifier from the 2020 district tournament
8 points per underclass district placer from 2020
6 points per underclass district qualifier (going 0-2, 1-2, or 2-2 made no difference)
With kids only being able to score in one of those three buckets, and obviously transfers were not considered.
 

bearcatrunner

Active member
Thank-you for the clarification. They are missing kids transferring in or out, stud freshmen, kids who improved over the summer, kids who were studs but were behind a stud already, kids who got injured at the end of the year. I believe each region has a coaches poll that could be used. Poll the coaches in those regions. What if you had a great JV team and had a bunch of seniors on your team last year? What if you had a bunch of studs but have a bunch of FF this year?

They excluded Legacy Christian, Miami East and Troy Christian in D3? Holy ^*^*% Batman!

When colleges can schedule games in 5 days against each other I think teams could have quickly figured it out to add some dual tournament matches. Everyone is pretty much scheduling and rescheduling dual matches every week anyway. Create a bracket and have the schools schedule the rounds by a certain date. They have time to fix this and need to do so. Otherwise whoever wins this is really just a paper champion.

I guess I should just be happy the kids are even allowed to wrestle this year. Seems like I am in the minority here.
 
This makes perfect sense. I mean, if this were football, then the teams making the Final 8 of the playoffs this year would have been those teams with the most returning all-league and all-state selections from last year. Makes perfect sense, because we all know it's the best individuals that make the best teams! As a coach I am thoroughly embarrassed that this was the best the OHSWCA could come up with. No accounting for transfers, no accounting for kids moving in/out of districts, no accounting for stud Freshmen in the lineups, no accounting for teams with/without full lineups, no accounting for a coaching staff's ability to strategize, and worst of all, no chance for the kids to prove it on the mat ... this so-called District qualification process is a complete sham and joke. I'm with you bearcatrunner, this is just awful. Heck, letting the District coaches simply vote for their 2 representatives would be more fair, at least then it would be based upon current year teams and results. Shame on the members of the OHSWCA. Let's all hope the powers that be come to their senses before next season, which will only happen if their beloved teams get screwed by this insane process.
 

Reelfoot

New member
Thank-you for the clarification. They are missing kids transferring in or out, stud freshmen, kids who improved over the summer, kids who were studs but were behind a stud already, kids who got injured at the end of the year. I believe each region has a coaches poll that could be used. Poll the coaches in those regions. What if you had a great JV team and had a bunch of seniors on your team last year? What if you had a bunch of studs but have a bunch of FF this year?

They excluded Legacy Christian, Miami East and Troy Christian in D3? Holy ^*^*% Batman!

When colleges can schedule games in 5 days against each other I think teams could have quickly figured it out to add some dual tournament matches. Everyone is pretty much scheduling and rescheduling dual matches every week anyway. Create a bracket and have the schools schedule the rounds by a certain date. They have time to fix this and need to do so. Otherwise whoever wins this is really just a paper champion.

I guess I should just be happy the kids are even allowed to wrestle this year. Seems like I am in the minority here.
Legacy did make it in as the number two team out of Troy. Troy Christian gives up 5 forfeits to a full team. Legacy also gives up 5 forfeits but their lineup is better across the board and could win the other 9 weight classes against many teams. Miami East would not make it to the state dual tournament this year even using OHSAA style regional tournaments. A good tournament team is not always a good dual meet team. The system isn’t perfect but I think most of the top dual meet teams in D3 got in.
 

WGTJ

Well-known member
Xenia Christian = Legacy

Also keep in mind that some schools may have been asked and turned it down.
 

bucksman

Moderator
Prior to the OHSAA sanctioning a dual meet tournament, the OHSWCA conducted a dual meet invitational. The criteria of that event was prior year based - in that case it was points scored by underclassmen at the district tournament plus additional points given for number of underclass district qualifiers as well as underclass district qualifiers who won a match at the district tournament. That formula did not account for injections of freshmen and transfers either.

Anything that is prior year based is not going to account for injections of new talent (freshmen or transfers). It just can't.

Those wanting some arbitrary voting group picking the teams with a chance to compete in the event: (1) who is that voting group (2) do you really think that's going to get the approval of stakeholders more than a criteria-based process, that is transparent.
 
Voting is not a great option, not even a good one, but it's better than basing current year playoff teams on previous year's results. Like I stated earlier, let the kids on the current year's team, in their current weights, in their current health, with the potential new additions, determine their own destiny.

The OHSAA system just cost way too much money (which can be fixed), but it was a sound methodology ... every team had it's chance to play itself to Columbus. The reality is that Freshmen play a big role on teams, so why should they potentially be denied a birth in States based upon the merits (or demerits) of their returning teammates? It just makes very little sense.

Now, since the OHSAA refused to fix their uber-costly system and instead dropped it (no guts and too many hurt egos), maybe they can learn from the Coach's Association on how to run an effective tournament at a much lower cost. #1 - Keep it out of the big venues (great move). #2 - Separate the 3 Divisions physically (another great move). Now just re-institute the Regional brackets so that every team can play its way into the big dance. It just isn't that hard - you are already 2/3 of the way there!
 

bearcatrunner

Active member
Thanks I did not realize Xenia was Legacy. That one baffled me because I know they had a ton of SQ's on that team even though they only had 9 wrestlers. Like mentioned above, what they do have is impressive. Should be very interesting to see how they do.

Well maybe I missed where these schools are listed but in response to the voting group. Cincinnati already has already voted and apparently we are not going to see the top team in any of the divisions wrestle for the team title. Maybe Cincinnati is just way more advanced in what we do compared to the other parts of the state? Best of luck to all of the teams in the tournament. I'm done with this subject but just find it so interesting that we ask these kids to work their tales off through out the year only not to ask the people who know the teams in their area who they would choose. Yes I would choose the coaches of all of the teams in the area to vote. Also, which teams from D3 in the SW area are representing Cincinnati?

 

bearcatrunner

Active member
Now, since the OHSAA refused to fix their uber-costly system and instead dropped it (no guts and too many hurt egos), maybe they can learn from the Coach's Association on how to run an effective tournament at a much lower cost. #1 - Keep it out of the big venues (great move). #2 - Separate the 3 Divisions physically (another great move). Now just re-institute the Regional brackets so that every team can play its way into the big dance. It just isn't that hard - you are already 2/3 of the way there!

Honestly this is the best answer above. I believe coaches would be happy to schedule matches that want to be part of this tournament . I guess I also have been remiss about for not thanking OHSWCA for stepping in to at least have a tournament. It is awesome that all involved are doing so. I just feel for the kids and teams that have worked hard to earn a spot in this and would do well who have been excluded. So much has already been robbed from the senior class and this is one more moment taken from them. For some the team success might be the best moments they have this year. Best of luck to all teams all season and Happy Pre New Year.
 

WGTJ

Well-known member
Thanks I did not realize Xenia was Legacy. That one baffled me because I know they had a ton of SQ's on that team even though they only had 9 wrestlers. Like mentioned above, what they do have is impressive. Should be very interesting to see how they do.

Well maybe I missed where these schools are listed but in response to the voting group. Cincinnati already has already voted and apparently we are not going to see the top team in any of the divisions wrestle for the team title. Maybe Cincinnati is just way more advanced in what we do compared to the other parts of the state? Best of luck to all of the teams in the tournament. I'm done with this subject but just find it so interesting that we ask these kids to work their tales off through out the year only not to ask the people who know the teams in their area who they would choose. Yes I would choose the coaches of all of the teams in the area to vote. Also, which teams from D3 in the SW area are representing Cincinnati?

Southwest district isn't just Cincinnati. Seems biased to just think that because a team is from the Cincinnati area that they should rep the southwest.
 
Yep, the SW covers a lot of ground ... the I-75 corridor from Dayton to Cincinnati, I-71 from Cincinnati to roughly the Washington CH/Wilmington area, and about everything inside that triangle, plus many teams East of Cincinnati.
 

WGTJ

Well-known member
Yep, the SW covers a lot of ground ... the I-75 corridor from Dayton to Cincinnati, I-71 from Cincinnati to roughly the Washington CH/Wilmington area, and about everything inside that triangle, plus many teams East of Cincinnati.
You get a decent amount north and northeast of Dayton as well.
 

bearcatrunner

Active member
You are correct and apparently I am doing an awful job of making my point. I was not trying to exclude the Dayton or Columbus teams. I've aready said I think Centerville is really the team to beat in SW Ohio for D1. Right now so many teams in SW Ohio are being hit with injuries, COVID and kids struggling with this whole new school structure that I'm not sure any team looks very strong right now.

My point was not that only Cincinnati schools should represent SW Ohio. That maybe a voting has taken place already and that according to that poll which involved all of the area coaches we are not getting any of the top schools represented from Cincinnati. That doesn't mean the poll is correct but it is much better then that formula being used.
 
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The rankings shown above for the Cincinnati area are just for fun. They have no bearing on anything, except that whoever is #1 at the end of the year gets some recognition. In the past several years, the final poll usually mirrored (for the most part) how the Cincinnati teams fared in the Regional brackets.
 

bearcatrunner

Active member
The rankings shown above for the Cincinnati area are just for fun. They have no bearing on anything, except that whoever is #1 at the end of the year gets some recognition. In the past several years, the final poll usually mirrored (for the most part) how the Cincinnati teams fared in the Regional brackets.
Well of course just, like any poll! I never said it was perfect or had any bearing on it. Ross could wrestle CM tomorrow and they could lose. Just like Boro's ranking. He is changing those things weekly with new information. Is it a perfect ranking system or poll. Nope but is it pretty awesome. I love it. Anyway, I just miss the previous year's system. You had some seeding issues but ultimately you found out who was the best team. At least during that time period.
 
Well of course just, like any poll! I never said it was perfect or had any bearing on it. Ross could wrestle CM tomorrow and they could lose. Just like Boro's ranking. He is changing those things weekly with new information. Is it a perfect ranking system or poll. Nope but is it pretty awesome. I love it. Anyway, I just miss the previous year's system. You had some seeding issues but ultimately you found out who was the best team. At least during that time period.
Couldn't agree with you more.
 
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