Cramer cited what the root cause for that difference is. If you're working off the entry grid and not the entrants, scratches can take a roster down from 8 or 7 (OHSAA defined team) to 6 or less. Either that, or I just outright miscounted the entrants for a team from the grid or brackets last cycle. Those sites that used TrackWrestling, I used the number of entrants and not the grid this go around.
New Numbers in 2024-2025
- Thread starter Rankman55
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OnceAViking
Member
A little birdy told me that there is a non-zero percent chance that this is moot because SPG's sport programs may be on the chopping block. There is enough smoke that some of the wrestlers are looking around for backup plans.
Fake News!
OnceAViking
Member
Tell that to their parents enquiring about open enrollment.
if kids are looking to leave its because they can't make the line up, not that Graham wrestling is getting chopped because of a school levy!
Nicolas Nickleby
New member
I would never trust a person who takes her counsel from a “little birdie.”
With information more reliable than your gossip, I can tell you the Graham wrestling program is going nowhere. Your bird isn’t fit for a pot pie
With information more reliable than your gossip, I can tell you the Graham wrestling program is going nowhere. Your bird isn’t fit for a pot pie
OnceAViking
Member
Assure your parents then.I would never trust a person who takes her counsel from a “little birdie.”
With information more reliable than your gossip, I can tell you the Graham wrestling program is going nowhere. Your bird isn’t fit for a pot pie
i can tell you there aren’t any current high school parents that need assured!
CoachSlyman
Member
If we added another division and another round of 16 sections and another 4 district tournaments where are they going to find the officials? We already have to pull retired officials out for the existing setup.
IF a 4th division gets added to the boys I could see that 4th division being the 8 man brackets from the early 80s in single A.
Playoffs???
Well-known member
Does anyone know the status or truth of a proposal allowing schools to bump up a division? I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this was on the table for consideration to allow a school to bump from D2 to D1, or D3 to D2. Two reasons I ask, one is genuinely curious if this was true or just rumor mill crap, 2nd reason is more of a comment or prediction on my part that if it is true and does or did pass, I would suspect any of the quality programs, Graham for example, would not stay in D3 even if their numbers place them there, especially considering some of the more consistent schools in D3 might have been reclassified into D2 such as Perry (the one up north), Lake Catholic. Still have Legacy Christian, and Miami East, Delta etc, but gets pretty thin after those programs in terms of consistency and solid lineups top to bottom......
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
The way it was explained to us, by someone very high up, is that the ONLY move possible will be to D1 regardless of the sport. That would mean no moves from D3 to D2 are possible.
From what we were told, this was apparently driven by BB where there are a few teams that are much better than the competition in their particular division.
Time will tell what the final form will be.
Playoffs???
Well-known member
I can't see that happening, but feel like if anyone could or would, they would certainly qualify and be justified in doing so. No disrespect to the other two divisions, just is what it is. I do wonder if they (or any other solid D2 dropping to D3) will be at risk of losing any kids who have concerns of being in D3 instead of D2 if that is what happens. Not trying to stir the pot, but that is a legitimate thought process for high level kids in the sport and looking to go to the college level. What is their exposure level, level of competition from one division to the next and how colleges use that evaluation as part of the recruiting process. Doesn't mean D3 kids do not wind up at D1 colleges and compete at a high level, there are various examples past and present we could all cite, however, not as many make that jump compared to D1 or even D2, so with this re-alignment, I could see some additional movement beyond the "normal" yearly changes and kids changing schools for any number or reasons.
tribetime1
Member
Instead of adding a division in wrestling or similar individual sports what about qualifying 6 per weight to state. These matches are already wrestled at districts so fairly easy to figure out. This accomplishes the OHSAAs goal of selling more tickets and streams while also benefiting the student athletes. Would potentially add to the quality of the tournament where a 4th division might water down the event. I believe PA takes 20 per weight to state but not exactly sure how they figure which 5/6s go. Add a rat tail round of some sort that works with the flow of the tournament which over a 3 day tournament should not be hard to figure out. We’ve all seen much larger brackets wrestled in 2 day tournaments. Yes this changes the traditional flow of the tournament that has worked so well over the last 20 plus years but the changes they’ve made recently have done similar so it would work out like it always does.
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Not trying to start an argument but a couple of points to consider.
Unless the idea comes from the tournament director, it is not going to happen.
You say that adding a fourth division (which I feel is not going to happen) would water down the competition but then feel that adding two more guys per weight, who did not qualify the week before, would not do the same thing?
Yes, the 5th place match is wrestled at the District meets but that is only so they have an alternate just in case.
FYI, the 3 day tournament is long enough as it is. I believe there were 1681 matches wrestled this year. We do not need more matches.
tribetime1
Member
No arguement just good discussion. I do believe changes are coming based on the recent actions of the OHSAA in other sports. The tournament director has made some pretty big changes recently which all have not been met with great reviews. Removing the stage, black and yellow mats, weigh in procedures etc so while he has a great system currently in place and we are all creatures of habit I do believe they have the capability and are smart enough to do it. My guess is the addition of girls wrestling was once thought to be a no go by the people in charge.
I'm not saying we need any of this including the recent expansion in other sports. Just trying to follow what the goal of the OHSAA actually is which seems to be very much profit driven. If expansion is being talked about in wrestling it is my opinion that it shouldn’t come from adding divisions but individuals. As far as watering down with the 5-6s I think you’re just wrong. You’re adding to the competition not taking away. Ask coaches if they have any 5-6s that might have won matches at state. I’m sure they have had a few. A 4th division does not add to the competition but potentially separates good wrestlers while limiting depth in each division.
I do not disagree that the tournament is already long but unfortunately that is the nature of the beast at this point. In fact more matches might allow for more officials to be involved providing more experience for those coming up the ranks.
What I do know is if there is money to be made the OHSAA will be eager to listen. Whether we like it or not.
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
First, the other sports have not expanded, the OHSAA just divided them into more but smaller pies. The more teams they have in playoffs, resulting in more playoff contests, the more money they make. Like it or not, boys wrestling simply does not have the numbers needed to add another division. Heck, a great case can be made for making it two divisions.
I am "just wrong" about watering things down with 5-6's?? In what world do you think that would lead to better competition? Do you really think a 6th place finisher from the District weekend is going to do anything at all in Columbus?
He lost 3 times the previous weekend!! We don't need participation awards. I imagine that occasionally someone could get hot and get in the top 8 but that would be an exception. No, I just don't see it leading to better competition but you are certainly entitled to your view.
I am not sure what you mean by "the nature of the beast" when it comes to the tournament being too long. As for adding officials, ha-ha. They added the whole girls division last year and not one official was added. Just more work for the 30 that are there. BTW, the State Tournament should never be a place to provide more experience for those coming through the ranks. While the system is flawed, by the time you get there you should have proven your worth.
WishYouWereHere
Well-known member
I think what Tribe is saying is …
OHSAA doesn’t care about a product being watered down, or officials being overworked;
As long as OHSAA can make more money, they’ll do it.
So ask yourself this …
If wrestling went to 4 boys divisions, would they make more money?
With more sectional and district tournaments, and more people at the state tournament … yes.
But, I’m guessing the Schott couldn’t handle the 4 boys divs with the girls, so the girls would have to leave and run on a different weekend at a different venue.
So if this all happened, would there be more profit??? I believe “yes”.
But, the OHSAA wouldn’t omit the girls. They’re too worried about being “politically correct”. Imagine the protests, riots, backlash, court cases, etc.
So “no”, I don’t believe it will happen.
OHSAA doesn’t care about a product being watered down, or officials being overworked;
As long as OHSAA can make more money, they’ll do it.
So ask yourself this …
If wrestling went to 4 boys divisions, would they make more money?
With more sectional and district tournaments, and more people at the state tournament … yes.
But, I’m guessing the Schott couldn’t handle the 4 boys divs with the girls, so the girls would have to leave and run on a different weekend at a different venue.
So if this all happened, would there be more profit??? I believe “yes”.
But, the OHSAA wouldn’t omit the girls. They’re too worried about being “politically correct”. Imagine the protests, riots, backlash, court cases, etc.
So “no”, I don’t believe it will happen.
What bolded in your statement I completely agree with, if there is money to be made OHSAA will act on it.
What I Italicized in your statement is a little off and I think it was this thread I mentioned this about the girls. Dr. Maurer, the state tournament director/coordinator (whatever the official title is?) talked about it in his interview with Mat Side, that the Schott is pretty much at capacity in its current format running 4 divisions, as in keeping it at 3 days, 10 mats, etc. Girls division is the one that will most likely expand before the boys go to a 4th division. Once girls split, that makes 5 divisions in wrestling between the 2 genders. So, something would need to change and the obvious choice would be the girls get their own venue or get the same venue on different days. Even if the boys went a 4th division before the girls went to 2 divisions, it would need to be split up in some way, again, 2 different venues or same venue different days.
Am I missing something with the speculation on adding a 4th division? If the team count is under 500 and the published cutoff for 4 divisions is 701 or more, why does anyone think a 4th division would be added?
Polarbear24
Member
No one ever thought they would add 3 divisions in baseball… but yet here we are at 4 divisions this year and next year it’ll jump to 7 division.
Looks like the total teams for baseball, 2023/24 was 754, above the 701 lower cutoff for 4 divisions, so that aligns with the published cutoffs. I don't know about 7 divisions.
Edit - looks like the 7 division change for baseball is going the route of football, 64/64 D1/D2 split then the remaining split evenly, so that's a whole new system and the news of it is published. Note that I don't have an emotional attachment to this issue, I just don't see how it can happen with the current cutoffs.
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hubman
Well-known member
Brilliant!!!! I love this idea!! It reminds of when OHSAA started adding the next 2 best times from around the state in Track with the top 4 of each regional (I remember a kid qualifying that way, ended up finishing 3rd at state in the 200, and those points pushed her team to the 2nd place team trophy) . This also sometimes will enhance competition at state because it gives kids from real strong deep districts an opportunity to excel even further. You trying to tell me that 5th or 6th place kid from that D1 ore D2 NE district couldn't go down to Columbus and make some noise?? I remember having a kid wrestling for 5/6th at a District after only losing to former or future state champs that day. The kid he had to wrestle for the alternate spot had finished 3rd at State in D2 the year before, and would go on the following year and win state in D1. I'm sure that kid would have posed challenges to kids in the state bracket that year. let's split the difference and take top 5, that's 4 more kids a weight class. How many more matches is that across 3 divisions?? If we go top 6 and 8 more per weight class, how many more matches is that? Who do I write to get this started
Northmor_Knight
New member
In case no one has noticed, OHSAA is 100% about money!!! They already have their new cash cow in girls wrestling, so I don't really see them adding another boys division.
I went through the Baumspage brackets and looked at teams that had entered 10 or less in the entry grids to see if any of those teams became "non-teams."
This is what I found (I could have incorrectly included a team in a tournament that was also on track, but i think this is correct).
Teams with => 7 in the entry grid that did not have at least 7 in the bracket:
D3 - 4 teams (Shadyside, Triway, East Clinton, and No. College Hill)
D2 - 3 teams (Heb Lakewood, Zanesville, and Scott)
D1 - 3 teams (Cuy Falls, Western Hills, and Winton Woods)
I'm not sure how this would affect the splits, but it looks like it would be close to the same as what you have..
GahannaGirlsWrestling77
New member
Great Opportunity to get our young ladies mat time for the next 8 weeks. View attachment 57222
I would love to go to 4 divisions but with one caveat: Each division have their own state tournament outside of C-Bus (let’s call it “Divisional State,” or simply “Divisionals” for short), then have the top 8 (or 12) qualify for a combined division state tournament at the Schott. 32 or 48 man brackets. I’d like 48-man brackets because it would be the same number of competitors as we have now. Make it happen people.