Midwest Athletic Conference 2020

thavoice

Well-known member
Right. Just like this year when ML was a 2 seed. I know what you mean. A 2 seed can be better than a 1 etc. But based on this logic, the OHSAA has to have an approved system that would allow for their point system to virtually be meaningless in the first scenario by week 12, only to pick it back up in week 13. In the second scenario, instead of looking at potentially 2-4 playoff sites for the winners, we are looking at any variable of 4-8 playoff sites depending on outcomes for each of the top 4 seeds. I just don't see how it could be adopted. I like your thoughts on the second scenario, I just think there would be far too much planning to find suitable sites and for 28 regions and having 8 potential outcomes in each region going into week 12
My scenarios would have weeks 11 and 12 at home field sites of the highest seeds.
1-4 get a bye, and then a home game.

Eliminates all of these potential issues of finding sites.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Depends on what you are trying to solve. Going to 16 teams would solve the regular season schedule gridlock. What does going to 12 with 4 having a bye solve? You are adding 4 teams but you are also giving an incentive to being in the top 4 which would create 6-8 teams per region trying to gerrymander their schedule to give them the best chance of being in the top 4. Which takes us right back to regular season scheduling gridlock. There may or may not be blowouts in either scenario, it is impossible to tell.
I really don't think we will see it that way in regards of scheduling issues of teams fighting for the bye. I really don't.
What going from 8 to 12 solves is the amount of teams with very solid records, 7-10 wins, will be getting into the playoffs. We get into a snowmageddon this winter maybe I will do that research.

The difference in wins in most regions from today's outsider looking in at #9 and under the new proposed 12 teams and the #13 should be significant in most instances.
 

Ben Cartwright

New member
I really don't think we will see it that way in regards of scheduling issues of teams fighting for the bye. I really don't.
What going from 8 to 12 solves is the amount of teams with very solid records, 7-10 wins, will be getting into the playoffs. We get into a snowmageddon this winter maybe I will do that research.

The difference in wins in most regions from today's outsider looking in at #9 and under the new proposed 12 teams and the #13 should be significant in most instances.
Generally speaking, 12 seeds are 6-4 and 16 seeds are 4-6/5-5. There may be a difference between those two and there may not. Way too many variables to tell such as schedule, injuries, general trend, coaching, etc. Just depends on each specific example because the Harbins don't tell how good the team is. #16 FR would beat #12 Hicksville.
 

Wedge_Breaker32

New member
This sounds like the current state of College Bowls. Why reward mediocre 5-5 and 6-4 teams (because there will be a bunch of those)? I think 8 is the right number and if you can't get in the top 8 than get better! The conversation of going to 12 may make sense for a few regions each year (R23) but not the majority. There would be some really bad teams making the playoffs and getting hammered in rounds 1 and 2.
 

Ben Cartwright

New member
This sounds like the current state of College Bowls. Why reward mediocre 5-5 and 6-4 teams (because there will be a bunch of those)? I think 8 is the right number and if you can't get in the top 8 than get better! The conversation of going to 12 may make sense for a few regions each year (R23) but not the majority. There would be some really bad teams making the playoffs and getting hammered in rounds 1 and 2.
The expansion is not to reward mediocre teams, that is just the by-product. The expansion is to help alleviate the regular season scheduling gridlock. It will actually help the better teams more than anyone.
 

Wedge_Breaker32

New member
Just curious because I don't know, but is the non-league scheduling an issue with other similar sized schools/divisions not in the MAC? It seems like we have been at 8 playoff teams for the better part of 20 years and the non-league scheduling challenges seem to be recent. What has changed? I know the 8 man teams are forcing some teams to scramble in NW Ohio.

I agree with Blue Jay Fan in that a good road trip once a year is not a bad thing. I also believe that schools in the MAC have figured out how important it is to get wins/points by scheduling tough non-league games so there is little interest to schedule down by playing schools that are not going to get points. Perhaps teams need to be less picky in who they are looking to schedule in order to get those big non-league points.
 

BigK72

Member
I don't think schools in the CCC have as much trouble. Granted, they aren't as threatening as the MAC schools.

Last year, here is a list of the schools CCC teams scheduled for their OOC.
Milton Union
Lehman
Minster x2
St. Henry x2
Alexander
Greenon
Jefferson
Dixie x2
Preble Shawnee
Brookville
Dayton Christian
Indiana School
Springfield CC
Riverside
New Bremen
Riverview East
Northridge
National Trail vs. Bethel Non-Conference

I think the CCC is more about getting a game than getting a quality game. I don't know which way it goes, but maybe MAC schools need to either A. Expand search area if or B. Lower their standards of opponent. 2 CCC schools played a Non-Conference game this year, and I know 2 of them did it last year as well. Is this an option for MAC schools?
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Just curious because I don't know, but is the non-league scheduling an issue with other similar sized schools/divisions not in the MAC? It seems like we have been at 8 playoff teams for the better part of 20 years and the non-league scheduling challenges seem to be recent. What has changed? I know the 8 man teams are forcing some teams to scramble in NW Ohio.

I agree with Blue Jay Fan in that a good road trip once a year is not a bad thing. I also believe that schools in the MAC have figured out how important it is to get wins/points by scheduling tough non-league games so there is little interest to schedule down by playing schools that are not going to get points. Perhaps teams need to be less picky in who they are looking to schedule in order to get those big non-league points.
No one wants to play good MAC teams period. Even New Bremen who just had recent success is having trouble finding opponent's, this is why Marion Local will play almost anyone regardless of computer pts. ( ex. Beallsville ), I don't understand why some posters can't get that. IMO it is ridiculous that Minster is playing Cincinnati Woodward a game very few people care about and their not playing Fort Recovery a game that would draw a lot more interest. I do believe ML and NB will find a game as other schools will have to fill out their schedules but in 2 years ( if not next year ) the Flyers and a couple of other MAC schools will be going through this again.
 
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Insane92

Active member
No one wants to play good MAC teams period. Even New Bremen who just had recent success is having trouble finding opponent's, this is why Marion Local will play almost anyone regardless of computer pts. ( ex. Beallsville ), I don't understand why some posters can't get that. IMO it is ridiculous that Minster is playing Cincinnati Woodward a game very few people care about and their not playing Fort Recovery a game that would draw a lot more interest. I do believe ML and NB will find a game as other schools will have to fill out their schedules but in 2 years ( if not next year ) the Flyers and a couple of other MAC schools will be going through this again.
I remember years ago Marion Local somehow found a Canadian team that came down and played them.
 

ReadyKnightsFan

Active member
No one wants to play good MAC teams period. Even New Bremen who just had recent success is having trouble finding opponent's, this is why Marion Local will play almost anyone regardless of computer pts. ( ex. Beallsville ), I don't understand why some posters can't get that. IMO it is ridiculous that Minster is playing Cincinnati Woodward a game very few people care about and their not playing Fort Recovery a game that would draw a lot more interest. I do believe ML and NB will find a game as other schools will have to fill out their schedules but in 2 years ( if not next year ) the Flyers and a couple of other MAC schools will be going through this again.
Are you wanting to see fewer MAC teams in the playoffs?

Case in point is New Bremen went to the Regional Finals with the help of 2 non conference wins. Had you replaced that Week 2 win over Ansonia with Marion Local, a MAC team they did not play in the regular season, New Bremen would have missed the playoffs and ironically, Ansonia (who got trounced by New Bremen) would have made the playoffs in their spot.
 

Wedge_Breaker32

New member
No one wants to play good MAC teams period. Even New Bremen who just had recent success is having trouble finding opponent's, this is why Marion Local will play almost anyone regardless of computer pts. ( ex. Beallsville ), I don't understand why some posters can't get that. IMO it is ridiculous that Minster is playing Cincinnati Woodward a game very few people care about and their not playing Fort Recovery a game that would draw a lot more interest. I do believe ML and NB will find a game as other schools will have to fill out their schedules but in 2 years ( if not next year ) the Flyers and a couple of other MAC schools will be going through this again.
I believe your response answers my question that this scheduling hardship is much more difficult for the MAC than other similar schools/conferences. I just don't understand why a few teams scheduling woes requires the entire state to change from 8 to 12/16 teams. Schools may be forced to agreeing to more 1 year deals with no return home game like ML did this year.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Are you wanting to see fewer MAC teams in the playoffs?

Case in point is New Bremen went to the Regional Finals with the help of 2 non conference wins. Had you replaced that Week 2 win over Ansonia with Marion Local, a MAC team they did not play in the regular season, New Bremen would have missed the playoffs and ironically, Ansonia (who got trounced by New Bremen) would have made the playoffs in their spot.
1st if ML and NB play each other early in the season I am not so sure the Flyers win that game. 2nd in 06 before rotating schedule 3 MAC schools made the play offs with 2 winning state titles . 3rd how many times has Parkway made the play offs even with a rotating schedule ? 4th Marion Local even though they are one of the smaller schools in the MAC never had trouble making the play offs before rotating schedule ( after Anna was added ). 5th win your games that simple and if the cookie does not crumble your way and you don't make the play offs so be it.
 
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Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
I believe your response answers my question that this scheduling hardship is much more difficult for the MAC than other similar schools/conferences. I just don't understand why a few teams scheduling woes requires the entire state to change from 8 to 12/16 teams. Schools may be forced to agreeing to more 1 year deals with no return home game like ML did this year.
I am not for expanding the play offs, to win state now a team has to win 15 games, which is more than most college teams play.
 

Ben Cartwright

New member
I believe your response answers my question that this scheduling hardship is much more difficult for the MAC than other similar schools/conferences. I just don't understand why a few teams scheduling woes requires the entire state to change from 8 to 12/16 teams. Schools may be forced to agreeing to more 1 year deals with no return home game like ML did this year.
It is way more than just a few MAC teams that have difficulties scheduling. Long-standing conferences have broken up over football schedules. It all comes down to hope. Take a bad basketball team, there is still that hope of having a tournament run or surprise that makes the end somewhat exciting. So, schools have done everything they can to give their football team that hope, scheduling distant games with little interest (chasing harbins), breaking up leagues, etc. Expanding the playoffs will create better regular season games, stabilize leagues, and give more teams that hope. The downside is more teams with average records will be in the playoffs. In D7 there will be teams with poor records make it because D7 schools in general have worse records because there is not a way to play a smaller school than they are.
 

Wedge_Breaker32

New member
It just seems like there has to be a logical way to fill out schedules for the teams that are struggling. If it can't be done at the AD level, maybe all schools have to post future schedules to some OHSAA site and allow someone to play matchmaker based on school size, distance, historical computer points, etc for schools that have the same open week. There needs to be an incentive for teams to play 10 games vs taking a bye and a 9 week schedule. Just spitballing here so don't shoot the messenger!
 

StateChampion2012

Well-known member
It just seems like there has to be a logical way to fill out schedules for the teams that are struggling. If it can't be done at the AD level, maybe all schools have to post future schedules to some OHSAA site and allow someone to play matchmaker based on school size, distance, historical computer points, etc for schools that have the same open week. There needs to be an incentive for teams to play 10 games vs taking a bye and a 9 week schedule. Just spitballing here so don't shoot the messenger!
OHSAA did have a nice schedule website that was easy to use and rather up to date. Then for some reason they decided to switch to Arbiterlive.com and results there have been hit and miss. We have a great AD so I at least know our listings on that site are correct.
 

State2013

Member
Lol. Some funny tongue in cheek there. Parkway loses perennially to Crestview and Spencerville (albeit they have split those games the past two years, I know they had lost 7 or 8 straight to Crestview). I think they would be fine. I think the bigger problem is a few schools reaching for a home and away in the MAC. Parkway has Crestview/Spencerville. DSJ has LCC and Jefferson. Minster has Loramie every year. CW and ML should possibly think of finding one or two "local" rivals. Even if they win most years, its still a good relationship builder with another school and there's always points to be gained

As far as 12 or 16 playoff teams, that would be a blood bath. Outside of one or two regions out of 28 in Ohio, there aren't any complaints with 8 teams. I would venture to say that the MAC has the biggest axe to grind, but in the end, the cream rises to the top.
After the whole playoff debacle with Parkway in 2007, not getting in with an 8-2 record because of only 1 OOC, I'm surprised anyone that is a MAC fan would want only 1 OOC.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
After the whole playoff debacle with Parkway in 2007, not getting in with an 8-2 record because of only 1 OOC, I'm surprised anyone that is a MAC fan would want only 1 OOC.
A team deserves to be in the play offs because they are 8 - 2 ? Wasn't their a team up north this year that was 10 - 0 that did not make the play offs. If Parkway def. Coldwater or Marion Local (lost by 20 to both ) guess what they make the play offs, win your games. Plus you are assuming Parkway would have made the play offs that year with a rotating schedule, their is know way of knowing that. I am not arguing that rotating schedule helps teams make the play offs. But if making the playoffs is the end all than hire better coaches like Minster did it is that simple.
 
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PantherSkin

New member
Maybe the MAC should add three more football only schools, continue the rotating schedule and either play no or 1 OOC. That way scheduling would be solved and you would still put the same amount of teams in. I am thinking Ft Loramie, Waynesfield and Sidney Lehmen. Two sacrificial (most years) and one quality team. WG and SLC would do it for the money, Loramie would do it for the potential glory.
 

Ben Cartwright

New member
It just seems like there has to be a logical way to fill out schedules for the teams that are struggling. If it can't be done at the AD level, maybe all schools have to post future schedules to some OHSAA site and allow someone to play matchmaker based on school size, distance, historical computer points, etc for schools that have the same open week. There needs to be an incentive for teams to play 10 games vs taking a bye and a 9 week schedule. Just spitballing here so don't shoot the messenger!
Not a terrible idea at all but can you imagine the politics with the matchups? Football is just different. Not only are you trying to maximize your team's playoff chances but you also need to be careful with matchups because of the physical aspect to the sport. If you are a small school, you don't want to match up your 170 lb sophomore guard against a 250 lb senior dlineman if you can help it. In your league schedule, you can't help it. But in your non-league games you can try to help it. You can get railed in a non-league basketball game by 35 and it won't hurt you in the future. You are still in the tournament and your kids didn't physically get hurt. You lose a kid in a non-league football game for the season by injury against a team that you were out-matched in size, strength, and depth, it really hurts.
 

State2013

Member
A team deserves to be in the play offs because they are 8 - 2 ? Wasn't their a team up north this year that was 10 - 0 that did not make the play offs. If Parkway def. Coldwater or Marion Local (lost by 20 to both ) guess what they make the play offs, win your games. Plus you are assuming Parkway would have made the play offs that year with a rotating schedule, their is know way of knowing that. I am not arguing that rotating schedule helps teams make the play offs. But if making the playoffs is the end all than hire better coaches like Minster did it is that simple.
There may be no way of knowing that, but you can turn it the other way, and make the case that since the MAC has done a rotating schedule, more teams have made the playoffs from within the league each year. That is a fact, and it shows that if they win their out of conference games and the team they beat is winning then you are putting the better team in the playoffs regardless of record. The 2009 Marion team would not have made the playoffs with a 5-5 record without playing that Canadian team as their second OOC. They proceeded to pretty much run the table in the playoffs, and got beat by DSJ in the semifinals in OT. It gives teams in the MAC that are not necessarily the top yet hope that they can get in by beating outside competition and show that they can make a run in the playoffs because the league is that much more difficult.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
No one wants to play good MAC teams period. Even New Bremen who just had recent success is having trouble finding opponent's, this is why Marion Local will play almost anyone regardless of computer pts. ( ex. Beallsville ), I don't understand why some posters can't get that. IMO it is ridiculous that Minster is playing Cincinnati Woodward a game very few people care about and their not playing Fort Recovery a game that would draw a lot more interest. I do believe ML and NB will find a game as other schools will have to fill out their schedules but in 2 years ( if not next year ) the Flyers and a couple of other MAC schools will be going through this again.
Oh, we get it.

We just dont understand why you want to go back to the scheduling that will ensure less MAC schools make the playoffs.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Oh, we get it.

We just dont understand why you want to go back to the scheduling that will ensure less MAC schools make the playoffs.
No some posters don't get it that ML and NB are searching high and low for a game but nobody wants to play them esp. ML.

I have posted numerous times why I do not like the rotating schedule. But I will post it one more time, to win a league title every team in the league should play each other ( how can you have 2 league champions that didn't play each other) the other reason successful teams should not to have scramble every year to find games so the less successful teams can make the play offs. Once again why is it that ML one of the smaller schools in the league has gone 8 - 2 every since 09 and won 5 or 6 league titles in the same period I believe. Other schools in the league cannot make the argument that Coldwater and Anna have too big of enrollments to compete against those schools. To make the play offs if you don't go at least 8 - 2 you should have no complaints about not making the post season IMO. If the play offs are an end all for everybody than hire better coaches, go pay Tim Goodwin 250,000 to be your coach. However I do believe as other MAC schools have difficulty finding non league games the rotating schedule will come to an end with in 5 to ten years but we will see.
 

cknights

Active member
No one wants to play good MAC teams period. Even New Bremen who just had recent success is having trouble finding opponent's, this is why Marion Local will play almost anyone regardless of computer pts. ( ex. Beallsville ), I don't understand why some posters can't get that. IMO it is ridiculous that Minster is playing Cincinnati Woodward a game very few people care about and their not playing Fort Recovery a game that would draw a lot more interest. I do believe ML and NB will find a game as other schools will have to fill out their schedules but in 2 years ( if not next year ) the Flyers and a couple of other MAC schools will be going through this again.
I believe you are missing the point of what the perception is of teams like Marion Local. While I respect the hell out of them and consider them the gold standard, I will pick on them for a second. Yes. We get it. No one wants to lose to a powerhouse. That said, ML burnt bridges with OOC foes for years! Beating the likes of an 0-10 Elida by 64 points just isn't good football and in this area in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s when we had multiple powerhouses in Delphos, Grove, the MAC, etc. you can't just go around pounding your chest at weak teams.

For years, instead of finding a solid local opponent to keep on the schedule for good (especially in the years of one OOC game), Marion Local would go out and pound on the sisters of the poor. This was bad for business. Those teams moved on and some of the found teams that they play yearly and to this day. The likes of Shawnee and Elida didn't appreciate that. And, if you remember football 15-20 years ago, we didn't have a ton of air raid offenses or teams that could score at will without trying. Its more common in this day and age to beat a team by 40 than it was 15-20 years ago. Back then it was completely disrespectful to run it up.

Food for thought.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
I believe you are missing the point of what the perception is of teams like Marion Local. While I respect the hell out of them and consider them the gold standard, I will pick on them for a second. Yes. We get it. No one wants to lose to a powerhouse. That said, ML burnt bridges with OOC foes for years! Beating the likes of an 0-10 Elida by 64 points just isn't good football and in this area in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s when we had multiple powerhouses in Delphos, Grove, the MAC, etc. you can't just go around pounding your chest at weak teams.

For years, instead of finding a solid local opponent to keep on the schedule for good (especially in the years of one OOC game), Marion Local would go out and pound on the sisters of the poor. This was bad for business. Those teams moved on and some of the found teams that they play yearly and to this day. The likes of Shawnee and Elida didn't appreciate that. And, if you remember football 15-20 years ago, we didn't have a ton of air raid offenses or teams that could score at will without trying. Its more common in this day and age to beat a team by 40 than it was 15-20 years ago. Back then it was completely disrespectful to run it up.

Food for thought.
FYI Elida a D - 3 school who plays in the WBL was 5 - 5 in 05 how did ML know that Elida would be as bad as they were in 07 and 08. As for Shawnee the Flyers were 5 - 1 vs Indians with the games being close except for the last 2. ML started their series with Shawnee in 09, year before Indians were 7 - 3, I wouldn't say they were sisters of the poor. Tim Goodwin is not an Angel but he does not run up the score.
 

cknights

Active member
FYI Elida a D - 3 school who plays in the WBL was 5 - 5 in 05 how did ML know that Elida would be as bad as they were in 07 and 08. As for Shawnee the Flyers were 5 - 1 vs Indians with the games being close except for the last 2. ML started their series with Shawnee in 09, year before Indians were 7 - 3, I wouldn't say they were sisters of the poor. Tim Goodwin is not an Angel but he does not run up the score.
In 2005 or 1995 or 1985, once you are up by 4-5 TDs then you know what running up the score is. Let’s not act like Goodwin is dumb. He’s damn good at what he does and knows exactly what running up the score was 15 years ago. To be real honest. As an outsider. I don’t blame any school one bit. Track records speak for themselves. Let’s not all act like this is simply because schools are “great”. This is about how you treat an opponent. Devils advocate but someone had to finally say it. A lot of schools have long running rivalries and respect vs the same opponent. ML burnt some bridges flexing.
 
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