Lima Shawnee v. Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary

Who will win?

  • St. Vincent-St. Mary by a lot

    Votes: 32 43.8%
  • St. Vincent-St. Mary in a close one

    Votes: 16 21.9%
  • Shawnee by a lot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Shawnee in a close one

    Votes: 25 34.2%

  • Total voters
    73

Massillon#82

Well-known member
I'm going to make the opposite argument that some of you are making. High School sports should be about playing your league and your area. Playing someone from another area might be an interesting diversion from your regular games but shouldn't be the standard. I understand why StV plays these regional and even national schedules. They are filling that new niche in HS sports but I really don't want to see things go in that direction.

Local kids playing other local kids is what HS sports is about to me. The state tournament should be a guessing game every year. Can that best team from NEO compete with that best team from SWO? The Central Ohio best team versus that great team from NWO. A SEO team most people don't know about makes a run. That is what makes HS sports interesting. You have that going on right now in college with the Big Ten or SEC team trying to move on. How the PAC-12 team does against the ACC. Or maybe that small conference team can rise up and challenge the big dogs.

I don't want to see super teams on an elite level head and shoulders above every one else and the outcome known before the tournament starts. I'm impressed with the level of skill and talent but I think the mystery of staying in your area makes the tournament alot better than having an elite circuit playing statewide schedules every year.
This has been going on for many many years, this isn’t a concept that just started the last couple years.
 

ShoelessJoe

Active member
Officially time for separate Private School Division since OHSAA can't find a way to make all big city privates that attract players from large population areas Division 1. SVSM and Lutheran East are living examples. They are both well coached and super talented teams with collections of all stars from large population areas. No way for normal rural / small city public schools to ever compete with that.
 

Irish60

Well-known member
I think he is borderline D2. What’s he bring? Not a great shooter but maybe he can become one... not a defended but maybe he can be
Comments like these sound a little like the discussion about Luke Chicone on the Mentor/ Centerville thread. It's not entirely fair to judge a player based on one game. I suspect most kids would not have their typical game with Malaki Branham matching up with them much of the game. But there's a reason Mangas was D2 POY last year and in the running again this year. Maybe he won't be the best player on his team at the next level, but IMO he could become a solid contributor at any D2 or a lower D1 school as suggested on this thread.
 

FlightCrew

Active member
Comments like these sound a little like the discussion about Luke Chicone on the Mentor/ Centerville thread. It's not entirely fair to judge a player based on one game. I suspect most kids would not have their typical game with Malaki Branham matching up with them much of the game. But there's a reason Mangas was D2 POY last year and in the running again this year. Maybe he won't be the best player on his team at the next level, but IMO he could become a solid contributor at any D2 or a lower D1 school as suggested on this thread.
I’ve seen him 10+ times,,,
 

FlightCrew

Active member
Officially time for separate Private School Division since OHSAA can't find a way to make all big city privates that attract players from large population areas Division 1. SVSM and Lutheran East are living examples. They are both well coached and super talented teams with collections of all stars from large population areas. No way for normal rural / small city public schools to ever compete with that.
Public's are doing it as well ...
 

NWOobserver

New member
I remember watching ASVSM play Wauseon in the state finals a few years ago. Wauseon cut it to a 3 point game in the 4th quarter before Graves and company closed the game on a 10-0 run. Wauseon did a good job of controlling the tempo of the game and gave themselves a chance to win. I was hoping that Shawnee would try the same strategy and try to control tempo a little bit, but that's not how they played all year so I understand.
I am not trying to stir the pot, but I remember people saying after the game that Graves had a long drive to get to school on a daily basis. I am not knocking it because I do agree that this is happening all across the state of Ohio. If you put yourself in his shoes, I cannot blame him for wanting to play there. If I were a great player in that part of the state, I think that I would do the same thing. Those players get to play an outstanding schedule and get great exposure. We can knock the process and the system all we want, but I don't think that it is going anywhere.
Congrats to Shawnee on an outstanding run the last 2 years. You've done yourselves proud!
 

FlightCrew

Active member
I remember watching ASVSM play Wauseon in the state finals a few years ago. Wauseon cut it to a 3 point game in the 4th quarter before Graves and company closed the game on a 10-0 run. Wauseon did a good job of controlling the tempo of the game and gave themselves a chance to win. I was hoping that Shawnee would try the same strategy and try to control tempo a little bit, but that's not how they played all year so I understand.
I am not trying to stir the pot, but I remember people saying after the game that Graves had a long drive to get to school on a daily basis. I am not knocking it because I do agree that this is happening all across the state of Ohio. If you put yourself in his shoes, I cannot blame him for wanting to play there. If I were a great player in that part of the state, I think that I would do the same thing. Those players get to play an outstanding schedule and get great exposure. We can knock the process and the system all we want, but I don't think that it is going anywhere.
Congrats to Shawnee on an outstanding run the last 2 years. You've done yourselves proud!
In hindsight the win vs Buchtel was the best and worst thing that happened to Shawnee. Got em to State and gave them the confidence they could run w StV. Irish dictated tempo outta the gate
 

LimaJock

Member
I'm going to make the opposite argument that some of you are making. High School sports should be about playing your league and your area. Playing someone from another area might be an interesting diversion from your regular games but shouldn't be the standard. I understand why StV plays these regional and even national schedules. They are filling that new niche in HS sports but I really don't want to see things go in that direction.

Local kids playing other local kids is what HS sports is about to me. The state tournament should be a guessing game every year. Can that best team from NEO compete with that best team from SWO? The Central Ohio best team versus that great team from NWO. A SEO team most people don't know about makes a run. That is what makes HS sports interesting. You have that going on right now in college with the Big Ten or SEC team trying to move on. How the PAC-12 team does against the ACC. Or maybe that small conference team can rise up and challenge the big dogs.

I don't want to see super teams on an elite level head and shoulders above every one else and the outcome known before the tournament starts. I'm impressed with the level of skill and talent but I think the mystery of staying in your area makes the tournament alot better than having an elite circuit playing statewide schedules every year.
He speak the truth.
 

Lep2002

Well-known member
Shawnee was fine, they just weren't as good as STVM. They really needed a cold night shooting from the Irish and the Irish shot above average. STVM is really good, probably the best team in Ohio. Shawnee has nothing to be ashamed of. Credit to coach Joyce. STVM has talent, but Joyce is as good as it gets when it comes to coaching. His kids play hard and they are always disciplined.

The Irish clearly get good players, but they lose some as well. Seth Wilson transferred out of STVM and he is a 2021 West Virginia recruit.
 

SeeYaSometime

Well-known member
Officially time for separate Private School Division since OHSAA can't find a way to make all big city privates that attract players from large population areas Division 1. SVSM and Lutheran East are living examples. They are both well coached and super talented teams with collections of all stars from large population areas. No way for normal rural / small city public schools to ever compete with that.
same old, same old

3DC04049-03C7-43A3-AD2D-E1227B4739BF.jpeg
 

SeeYaSometime

Well-known member
This is video of the post game interview where Coach Joyce explains how SVSM set up their defense to prevent the Shawnee run-outs.

 

FlightCrew

Active member
I'm going to make the opposite argument that some of you are making. High School sports should be about playing your league and your area. Playing someone from another area might be an interesting diversion from your regular games but shouldn't be the standard. I understand why StV plays these regional and even national schedules. They are filling that new niche in HS sports but I really don't want to see things go in that direction.

Local kids playing other local kids is what HS sports is about to me. The state tournament should be a guessing game every year. Can that best team from NEO compete with that best team from SWO? The Central Ohio best team versus that great team from NWO. A SEO team most people don't know about makes a run. That is what makes HS sports interesting. You have that going on right now in college with the Big Ten or SEC team trying to move on. How the PAC-12 team does against the ACC. Or maybe that small conference team can rise up and challenge the big dogs.

I don't want to see super teams on an elite level head and shoulders above every one else and the outcome known before the tournament starts. I'm impressed with the level of skill and talent but I think the mystery of staying in your area makes the tournament alot better than having an elite circuit playing statewide schedules every year.
I think if you’re going to play for state titles you have to expand your schedule. If you’re in a typical year you play 22 games your conference schedules 8-10 games roughly. You should play another eight local teams and look for three or four out of your area upper teams.
 

ShoelessJoe

Active member
Public's are doing it as well ...
Not is my area.
The competitive balance numbers do very little. They are based on the number of players from outside the schools geographic area / district. They need to be based on the population of the area the players are from. It is much different for SVSM getting the 5 of the best basketball players from greater Akron, than Delphos St. Johns getting the 5 of the best players from Van Wert, Spencerville, Ft. Jennings area. They should be adding at least 500 (not 63)to the enrollment of SVSM based on where their players come from. If they can't do that, then there should be separate divisions for Privates and Publics. This population based rule should also apply for public schools that have players from outside their district. If you want to accept players from outside your school's area, go for it, but you should also bring in the population of that area with you. I personally want to keep the privates and publics together, but what what SVSM and Lutheran East are legally (we hope) doing does not create a level playing field.
 

Zezzo!

Well-known member
Lima Shawnee 50-2 over two years (stat from WIMA). That's pretty impressive regardless of how each season ended.

26-1 in the WBL over 3 seasons. Again, not too shabby
Ultimately it got them nothing unless you're happy with one semi-final appearance!
 

westa-k-ron1

Well-known member
Not is my area.
The competitive balance numbers do very little. They are based on the number of players from outside the schools geographic area / district. They need to be based on the population of the area the players are from. It is much different for SVSM getting the 5 of the best basketball players from greater Akron, than Delphos St. Johns getting the 5 of the best players from Van Wert, Spencerville, Ft. Jennings area. They should be adding at least 500 (not 63)to the enrollment of SVSM based on where their players come from. If they can't do that, then there should be separate divisions for Privates and Publics. This population based rule should also apply for public schools that have players from outside their district. If you want to accept players from outside your school's area, go for it, but you should also bring in the population of that area with you. I personally want to keep the privates and publics together, but what what SVSM and Lutheran East are legally (we hope) doing does not create a level playing field.
SV doesn’t have or get the 5 best players from greater Akron...I keep trying to make this point , there is a LOT of talent in North East Ohio.
 

Irish60

Well-known member
Not is my area.
The competitive balance numbers do very little. They are based on the number of players from outside the schools geographic area / district. They need to be based on the population of the area the players are from. It is much different for SVSM getting the 5 of the best basketball players from greater Akron, than Delphos St. Johns getting the 5 of the best players from Van Wert, Spencerville, Ft. Jennings area. They should be adding at least 500 (not 63)to the enrollment of SVSM based on where their players come from. If they can't do that, then there should be separate divisions for Privates and Publics. This population based rule should also apply for public schools that have players from outside their district. If you want to accept players from outside your school's area, go for it, but you should also bring in the population of that area with you. I personally want to keep the privates and publics together, but what what SVSM and Lutheran East are legally (we hope) doing does not create a level playing field.
It's difficult to write general rules to address a specific situation. Such efforts typically lead to unfair results. If you write CB rules that would place STVM at 500 then that would lead to an unfair result for quite a number of other schools. To me, a competition metric makes much more sense. Grade a team's schedule and assign them to the division commensurate with that. When looking at the schedule begin with the D1-D4 classification of the opponent then adjust the grade by how many wins that team had the prior year. If your schedule is loaded with D1's who had 2 or 3 wins the year before, then that shouldn't impact your division assignment as much as a schedule loaded with St. Ed's, St. Ignatius and Moeller! Then look at the final grade of the overall schedule and assign the team to the appropriate division. I fully support the idea that the competition a team faces in the tournament should mirror the level of competition they face in the regular season.
 

Zezzo!

Well-known member
This is silly, it’s absolutely a honor for schools to make it to the final Four and I would argue the same for regionals as well.
Well it depends what you're in it for championships or appearances in the Shawnee community I understand just getting there is your championship.
I get it, it's an accomplishment nevertheless and it's not silly it's a fact!
 

FlightCrew

Active member
Not is my area.
The competitive balance numbers do very little. They are based on the number of players from outside the schools geographic area / district. They need to be based on the population of the area the players are from. It is much different for SVSM getting the 5 of the best basketball players from greater Akron, than Delphos St. Johns getting the 5 of the best players from Van Wert, Spencerville, Ft. Jennings area. They should be adding at least 500 (not 63)to the enrollment of SVSM based on where their players come from. If they can't do that, then there should be separate divisions for Privates and Publics. This population based rule should also apply for public schools that have players from outside their district. If you want to accept players from outside your school's area, go for it, but you should also bring in the population of that area with you. I personally want to keep the privates and publics together, but what what SVSM and Lutheran East are legally (we hope) doing does not create a level playing field.
Delphos St John??? What are you talking about? You must not live anywhere near Delphos to float a claim like that.... lol
 

spirit454

Well-known member
Well it depends what you're in it for championships or appearances in the Shawnee community I understand just getting there is your championship.
I get it, it's an accomplishment nevertheless and it's not silly it's a fact!
Most schools are in for the chance to compete for a championship. But there are some schools that assemble teams to win it.
 

spirit454

Well-known member
After watching Branham in two games in Dayton and a couple in his soph season I have to wonder if he can play for Ohio State. at 6-5 he would have to shoot the ball or rebound and he did neither this past weekend. Someone see anything different? I admit I saw two games this season but it was the biggest stage.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Officially time for separate Private School Division since OHSAA can't find a way to make all big city privates that attract players from large population areas Division 1. SVSM and Lutheran East are living examples. They are both well coached and super talented teams with collections of all stars from large population areas. No way for normal rural / small city public schools to ever compete with that.
The problem with this is that there are a lot more schools getting lumped into a theoretical private school division than the dozen or so schools located in and around the bigger cities that people take issue with. This doesn't actually fix the problem, it just puts the weight of the problem entirely on the shoulders of the other privates that aren't recruiting 4-5 counties or that have legitimate smaller enrollments from fairly well-defined areas.

If this was the OHSAA's real solution to this problem, if I was a small D4 school like Springfield Catholic Central that has a ton of basketball tradition I would start openly recruiting my county and multiple neighboring counties for the 2-3 best basketball players I can get in every class because the state association has decided to punish me solely for being private because their incompetence has gotten in the way of them solving a problem that revolves around maybe a dozen schools. There's no reason to accept getting boat raced by all of the stacked teams if you're wrongly slammed into competing against them. In that scenario, you may as well embrace trying to become one of them, which only exacerbates the problem of recruiting and effortful attraction of high-end talent.
 
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Zezzo!

Well-known member
Most schools are in for the chance to compete for a championship. But there are some schools that assemble teams to win it.
That's an excuse and losing mindset however I understand you're the ladder of what I said in my previous post. Life is not fair should you stop living?
 
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