Doublehelix
Well-known member
Of course it will because there will be many more game situations where improvised scoring opportunities will be needed. Right now, it's just end of quarter that has this situation.
It’s Time for a Shot Clock
- Thread starter topperbounce
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CasualFan24
Well-known member
I read the first 2 pages, don't feel like reading through 4 more. But, in the first 2 I didn't see anyone make this point.....
What about the fact that all levels of college and pro basketball have a shot clock as an argument for it to happen? Are there other rules similar in other sports that college has and not high school (real question)? I bet college coaches would like for their recruits to have a shot clock in high school..don't you think?
I saw a very competitive game on Tuesday night between 2 teams trying to win their league championship. It ended up being a 5 point game, but at one point in the game, one of the teams went into a motion offense and was trying to work for an open cut/layup. The other team, who was winning at the time, just played man to man, but sagged off the offense enough to not get beat by a cutter. It was so boring really. Not just that, but not having a shot clock really takes away from some great defense that could be played in a game.
You see it even in the pros - teams can play really great defense from possession to possession, but asking a team to sit down and play defense for 1 minute straight is a really really tough ask. I mean, the object of the game is to score right? Not just score, and see how long we can play keep away - I don't think that how the game was meant to be played.
What about the fact that all levels of college and pro basketball have a shot clock as an argument for it to happen? Are there other rules similar in other sports that college has and not high school (real question)? I bet college coaches would like for their recruits to have a shot clock in high school..don't you think?
I saw a very competitive game on Tuesday night between 2 teams trying to win their league championship. It ended up being a 5 point game, but at one point in the game, one of the teams went into a motion offense and was trying to work for an open cut/layup. The other team, who was winning at the time, just played man to man, but sagged off the offense enough to not get beat by a cutter. It was so boring really. Not just that, but not having a shot clock really takes away from some great defense that could be played in a game.
You see it even in the pros - teams can play really great defense from possession to possession, but asking a team to sit down and play defense for 1 minute straight is a really really tough ask. I mean, the object of the game is to score right? Not just score, and see how long we can play keep away - I don't think that how the game was meant to be played.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
Any baseball fans out there in this thread? Lets do a little comparison...
Lets say you have a baseball game. Lets say it's a 1 run game in the top of the 6th on a typical spring evening in Ohio. Let say between pitches, the pitcher really takes his time, take his glove off...rubs dirt in his hands, rubs down the ball, calls off a pitch multiple times, steps off the rubber, calls the catcher out to the mound, then throws a pitch. Then repeats all of that before the next pitch, only let's also throw in a mound visit from the coach. Hey lets also throw in a pitching change in this inning. Uh oh, now it's dark. Can't see well enough to keep playing, game is official after 5 innings. Ball game. EVERYONE would be absolutely livid about this - a blatant abuse of the rules, to extend the time of the game and not give the other team a chance to win it. How is this any different that stall ball in basketball?
Lets say you have a baseball game. Lets say it's a 1 run game in the top of the 6th on a typical spring evening in Ohio. Let say between pitches, the pitcher really takes his time, take his glove off...rubs dirt in his hands, rubs down the ball, calls off a pitch multiple times, steps off the rubber, calls the catcher out to the mound, then throws a pitch. Then repeats all of that before the next pitch, only let's also throw in a mound visit from the coach. Hey lets also throw in a pitching change in this inning. Uh oh, now it's dark. Can't see well enough to keep playing, game is official after 5 innings. Ball game. EVERYONE would be absolutely livid about this - a blatant abuse of the rules, to extend the time of the game and not give the other team a chance to win it. How is this any different that stall ball in basketball?
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
The issue with this comparison is that its apples vs oranges. The other team can do nothing to make you do something. This is not true in basketball.
1. This was already brought up and the idea was that its not the job of HS coaches to do what college coaches want them to do.
2. I disagree. I think the shot clock really benefits the defense because they know the other team has to shoot within 35 seconds so there isn't any reason to go out and cover just to force a play. You can pack it in and wait them out. Not having one makes teams have to actually be prepared to defend the whole floor. I feel like we will see a lot less Traps and presses (outside of end of game) because the clock will just give it back.
winbypin
Well-known member
Yes, there will be more rushed shots but not necessarily better scoring.
winbypin
Well-known member
The object of the game is to win. So if wearing a defense down for a minute leads to a bucket and also takes away opportunity for your opponent to score that seems to fit with the goal of winning a game.
Yes, there are other sports where the higher level versions have different rules than HS.
And if you think we should make HS rule changes for the small percentage that go to college I have to disagree. I think college coaches want the best players they can get....with or without shot clock.
Doublehelix
Well-known member
I never equated shot clock to scoring. In my opinion, it has more correlation to better pace and increased player freedom, which I think would help. I don't think it will automatically increase scoring.
If the implement it, it will get uglier before it gets prettier. 3-5 year window to see its impact, but I think it would improve the product. Hopefully we find out if it works.
winbypin
Well-known member
Well, of all the dumb comparisons I have seen in here this one takes the cake.
There is a game clock in basketball. No such thing in baseball.
winbypin
Well-known member
Ok. Improved scoring opportunities you said. So ok...there will still be more rushed shots but not improved scoring opportunities. All better?
It will happen. I have no doubt. I don't think it will do what you're saying though.
AllSports12
Moderator
History has proven that.
AllSports12
Moderator
Well, yes there is......
The pitcher has 20 seconds to deliver the ball to the plate absent an attempt (including a legal feint) to make a play against an opponent.
AllSports12
Moderator
Which brings us back to people simply not liking the style of play. (and using the rare "stall ball" excuse as the reason for the clock)
At the end of the day, after the clock is implemented, they'll find another reason to gripe
Irish60
Well-known member
I see this, too, in college. In watching the NBA, when the shot clock gets down to a few seconds, those guys are generally skilled enough to typically get off a pretty good shot. However, I see a BIG difference at the college level. In a lot of college games I see, once the shot clock starts to wind down you are much more likely to see a rushed, desperation shot attempt before the buzzer sounds. I would expect the same would hold true in high school ball, only exacerbated because the talent level is comparatively lesser.
winbypin
Well-known member
I thought there but wasn't sure for HS. I know for a fact there in no game clock in baseball though...except summer tournaments.
Now be prepared for someone to say "ok...so even baseball has a shot clock"....
DatDudeKid
Member
Spot on..........Whatever happened to the onus being on the defense? Ya know, if you want more possessions you get in shape and learn/marry the press, force the opposition to take a quicker shot. I assume most coaches will move to a zone defensively if a clock itself is going to force them into a bad shot. End of qtr situations on most posessions.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
I realize my example was extreme. It was just an example in another sport where time can be wasted to keep the other teams offense off the field or away from the ball. There is a reason why 95% of basketball teams go to the motion offense where the players just pass, cut, fill when they are winning. The sole purpose is to chew up the clock.
Doublehelix
Well-known member
Simple math shows there will be increased scoring opportunities. WIth a hypothetical 35 second shot, that's roughly 13 chances to have to shoot the ball for each team each quarter. Obviously there will be times when shots happen well before the shot clock is close to expiring. You will absolutely have to shoot more. But the times where you HAVE to shoot will significantly increase. Right now, it's only at quarter end where you HAVE to shoot.
Now, I'm not saying more of those shots will go in, because I agree with you that poor shots and lack of shooting is also an issue. But all of that will improve over time as this evolves.
It's going to take some time.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
Just so we're on the same page, it's ok to force a team to play man-to-man defense to create more offense, but it's not ok to have a shot clock to create more offense? Got it!
CasualFan24
Well-known member
1. I know the job of a HS coach is not to appease college coaches. But it is their job to prepare a kid to play in college is it not? Or to make a kid better to the point that he/she can play in college, no? My point is not about what college coaches want, it's about playing the same game across the board - why is there a shot clock in every other level of the game and not in high school?
2. We both agree and disagree at the same time on this. The clock is absolutely beneficial to the defense, that we agree on. But the point about defenses defending the whole floor is also my point only a different perspective. It is really hard to play defense and defend the whole floor for long stretches. But to only have to do it for 35 seconds would be a reward for it playing great defense. Think about the 10 second rule or the 5 second closely guarded rule. Those are celebrated by the defense when they happen. Same would be the case for shot clock violations.
DatDudeKid
Member
No its not...... By motion offense you mean read and react, pass & cut? There's layers to it. And a protection mode is one of them. Read and react is about creating space and opening up driving lanes. It moves the defense and its easy to install. When you implement your shot clock, you'll have teams completely packed in defensively. 4 corners, flex etc are clock chewing offenses with very few looks to score.
Noone is forcing anyone to do anything, unless you install a shot clock. If you are a coach and want to play faster, you play a defense that speeds the game up. That help?
CasualFan24
Well-known member
Let's do another comparison - you're name is "winbypin" but you have Ric Flair for your pic so I'm not sure if you're a real wrestling fan or not.
In real wrestling, all ages and levels from youth all through college - there is stalling. 1st call is a warning. 2nd call awards a point for the opponent. Stalling is called when an opposing wrestler does not make an effort to continue to action of the match. It's also called on an opponent who just wants to lock their hands around the leg of an opponent without the intent of taking the opponent down.
There are time limits in all sports, things in place to produce action and offense.....just don't see why it's such a big deal to have one in HS basketball.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
Should Ohio high school basketball games have shot clocks?
The high school basketball season wrapped up Sunday with two Northeast Ohio teams winning titles: Akron’s St. Vincent-St. Mary and Richmond Heights.
www.news5cleveland.com
This was written right after NFHS gave the green light on shot clocks. 85% polled believe shot clock was needed. I definitely see the pros and cons, and rightfully pointed out in the article, a shot clock will definitely benefit the more talented teams as it's easier for them to get into their offense. But as also mentioned in the article, basketball used to be play with no backboards, no dribbling, and no dunking. Teams will adjust accordingly and it will be just fine if/when the shot clock is adopted.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
Right or wrong a number of people see this as a reaction to other people being so upset about the very small number of games the devolve to stall ball that they want to completely change the rules.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
I'd say there was even a smaller number of games that resulted in the rule change to a running clock with a 35 point deficit.
winbypin
Well-known member
So? It's not the winning team's responsibility to keep the losing team in the game.
winbypin
Well-known member
1. Uh, no it is not their job to prepare in college. Its his job to prepare his players for HS. If he is fortunate enough to have a player or two worthy to play in college he should do his part to help him get noticed by college coaches I think. That's about it.
2. Who is going to celebrate the bad shots that are forced by both teams?
winbypin
Well-known member
Well the average is already at less than 35 seconds a possession. So how are you going to increase shots?
And...btw...you said improved NOT increased. The shots will not be improved.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
If the average is already less than 35 seconds, than why are we arguing about it? It's not going to have much effect on MOST teams then. All those bad shots you're talking about aren't going to happen any more than they already are with the average ToP being less than 35 seconds...?
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winbypin
Well-known member
I am very familiar with the stalling call in wrestling. You're still comparing apples to oranges. Stalling in wrestling is different than running an offense in basketball for an extended period of time or even standing at midcourt holding the ball. Have you ever wrestled? Do you know how hard it is to get out from the bottom when you're opponent is actually working to turn you? Do you know how much harder it is when he is content with basically lying on top of you and not trying to turn you? Hence the stalling call?
What options does a basketball defense have to stop a team from standing at midcourt holding the ball? It's real easy to come out and defend and force the action if the team wants. What everyone seems to forget in the RARE times a team is actually holding the ball is that the defensive team is choosing to let this happen. They are allowing it. It takes two to tango as they say.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
From what I understand, OHSAA will rely heavily on the coaches and whether or not coaches want a shot clock....big schools with lots of athletes and talent will want the shot clock. Small schools who rely on ball control and working to get what they want will hate it. Probably more small schools than big, probably not going to have a shot clock any time soon.