Depth of Records

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
Run4Life, Bill Carson, and psycho_dad, you all make valid points about using a team's record at the regional and state meets. Maybe I should count those meets and throw out Roosevelt. Coach Russo always liked Roosevelt because they used all the track events including all relays. That's where it takes real depth in all track/field events to win a meet and really determine who has a good team. I remember one year that Mike Fernandez took a shuttle hurdle relay from Wayne only to Roosevelt and ran them in that one events. Should Wayne then count as a team that La Salle beat on their won/loss record if they only ran in that one event..
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
If you are not counting win/lost in regards to regional and state meets, we should also get rid of team champions and runner up awards. Individuals get their awards. Personally if my team places ahead of another school in the same competition, I think is counts. I have no problem with Lancermania stops counting after the district meet, and he has been consistent throughout his record keeping it seems.
I concur. As long as methodologies are delineated within the document, all is good to me.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
I'm confused why you stop at the District and don't include Regional and State meet results? If you don't care that teams aren't fielding full teams at other meets, then why is the Regional and State meets any different? The one meet I looked at, over half the teams did not participate in half the events. I'm just asking questions to get a better understanding and to get it straight in my own mind. I thought I was pretty complimentary of the stat book. It's very impressive. I don't think the accomplishments are any less if Regional and State meets were included. We run dual meets. We try and win dual meets, so dual meet records would mean something. We don't necessarily try and win invitationals. We try and win our league. We don't necessarily try and win invitationals. In fact, we try to pick invitationals where we are going to be challenged. Sort of fight up a weight class, so invite records aren't that important to me. District, Regional and State mean more to me than Invites, but we really just try to do our best and I don't go back and look at the record too much.

Don't throw anything out. It's all good. I just ask questions. It's my nature.
 

ENA2

Member
FWIW, I agree that if it is consistent for your school/Program then a statistician (coach) should keep records any way they choose. For our school, for Track & Field we have school records for every standard event for indoors and out and a list of "obsolete" (180 low hurdles, etc) and "seldom run" events (1500, etc), records. We also have an "All-time" list (top 16) for standard events - I call it the "Sweet 16" - and marks that make a certain standard for indoor events or seldom run events (triple jump for example). If there is a question about a marks legitimacy (wind, hand timed, etc.) then it is still on the all-time list, but does not count as a school record. For example, In the girls 200 Meter dash, a girl ran a legit 26.33 and is listed ahead of the those who clocked bests of 26.1 and 26.2 hand timed.

For Win/Loss records, We keep Dual/Tri-meet records from year to year and league meets records but not much else. a couple years ago, our local paper wanted to know our "overall record" so I counted every meet of the year against every school who was represented at that meet. That was for track & field and since we had some kids at the state meet it was almost 300 wins or losses in one season. Football/Basketball/Volleyball/Baseball mentality often can not wrap their head around this.
 

ENA2

Member
Not that anyone cares, but for cross country we do have an "all-time" list with the top mark being our school record. However, we do have some faster marks that are not on the list due to some courses being knowingly short. Although I created a monster, we also have a "top ten times" list for each course that we race on. We also have a" top 20" 5K times for each grade (9-12).

For wins and losses, we count wins for every team that our Varsity team defeats. So, If we finish 10th at Tiffin, and 50 teams score, then we are 40 wins and 9 losses for that meet. If our JV team competes and gets 4th out of 30 in the "B" race, then it does not count, cause they are not the Varsity team, even though they ran a varsity race. If the team ends their season at the Regional meet, that is the last meet where a team record is calculated. The only exception for this is if I know that a team began with 5-7 runners and did not finish 5, then I still count them as a team we beat. NOTE: once we started 6 and 2 dropped out so our record was 0-12 for that 13-team race.
 

CC Track Fan

Active member
How would you count the state meet. Say 260 teams have a participate at district meet and yout team finishes 5th at state meet so I guess that would make the record 255 wins and 4 loses since your team outscored 255 teams that entered the tournament.
 
Run4Life, Bill Carson, and psycho_dad, you all make valid points about using a team's record at the regional and state meets. Maybe I should count those meets and throw out Roosevelt. Coach Russo always liked Roosevelt because they used all the track events including all relays. That's where it takes real depth in all track/field events to win a meet and really determine who has a good team. I remember one year that Mike Fernandez took a shuttle hurdle relay from Wayne only to Roosevelt and ran them in that one events. Should Wayne then count as a team that La Salle beat on their won/loss record if they only ran in that one event..
Just to clarify, I did not make any statement regarding regional or state, but I would agree with you not to use them.
If your school has an Otis Jenkins who scores 30 points at state, and he is the schools only runner, why would I say his TEAM beat mine in the seasonal record.
 

Tartan78

Active member
In division 2 Claymont has pretty good depth in the Shot-Put. I think they have had 12 throwers go over 50 feet through the years. The school record is 59 feet and change.
 

ENA2

Member
That is probably why some schools don't count "team" records after the District.... because they (or others) consider Track & field to be individualized after that point. At the district and prior a school CAN enter in every event but at the Regional/State meets a school can only be in events that they qualify in so "the team" has no control. However, the other side of the coin is that one person can score enough to win the state meet so one person can score enough to get 61st place. Also, if only one person qualifies to the State meet, don't they wear the school uniform and represent the whole team/school?. I would think that most times, there is a whole team that trained every day with that qualifier and help them improve.
Where I'm from, Track and field is a TEAM sport and representing that team is important at every meet.
...and cross country is too, however an individual qualifier does not contribute to a "TEAM Score" in cross country.
Does not bother me how a program chooses to account for these concerns as long as it is consistent and works for them.
 
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I think that any way a coach decides to keep marks and records is fine as long as they stay as consistent as possible. The next coach may go another direction which is his or her perogative. There always seem to be different twists. There are many who do not see these lists as important and let them drop so another reason for the outsiders so-to-speak to be coveted. New coaches will be inclined keep what is already in place due to the difficulty of tracking down older and better records and top 10 lists. For this reason the sewards of the programs who compile these things are invaluable and their method should accepted even if different from other programs.

Claymont having 10 over 50 is impressive for a school of that size as are others listed so far. For the deep lists like Claymont in the shot put, do you think it is emphasis, coaching, clientele, a combination, or many different reasons for various schools.

Keep tossing out those very deep quality marks and non-records that are exceptional. I am also fascinated with high ranking marks from many years ago. Any really old marks that have survived time?
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
I think that any way a coach decides to keep marks and records is fine as long as they stay as consistent as possible. The next coach may go another direction which is his or her perogative. There always seem to be different twists. There are many who do not see these lists as important and let them drop so another reason for the outsiders so-to-speak to be coveted. New coaches will be inclined keep what is already in place due to the difficulty of tracking down older and better records and top 10 lists. For this reason the sewards of the programs who compile these things are invaluable and their method should accepted even if different from other programs.

Claymont having 10 over 50 is impressive for a school of that size as are others listed so far. For the deep lists like Claymont in the shot put, do you think it is emphasis, coaching, clientele, a combination, or many different reasons for various schools.

Keep tossing out those very deep quality marks and non-records that are exceptional. I am also fascinated with high ranking marks from many years ago. Any really old marks that have survived time?
The oldest school records on the books at my school:
Girls: We have a pair from 1981 by the same person - an 18' 0" long jump and a 56.45 400m dash. I don't know that the long jump will ever be broken. We have had another girl break 57 in the 400, so it's possible that the right girl will come along one day to break that record.

Boys: Pole Vault - 14' 0" from 1969. record was tied in 2003 but hasn't been broken. I don't remember what my school's 4x200m record was set as when the event was re-implemented to counter the implementation of girls PV, but whatever it was, I uncovered a pair of 4x220yd. relays that converted to faster times. The faster of the 2 was from 1975 and the other from 1965. Thankfully, that 1975 time was shattered a few years ago to end any type of controversy or dilemma.

The quality isn't the highest, but boys HJ might be my school's deepest school record. 2 boys are tied for the top spot at 6' 7", but 5 more are tied at 6' 6" with at least 1 more at 6' 5".

The oldest stadium records on the books at my school:
Girls: A 5' 6.5" high jump from 1993. All other girls stadium records were achieved in 2005 or more recently.

Boys: A two mile time from 1976 that converts to a 9:34.3h 3200m. The next oldest stadium record is from 1988. We've also had 2 high jumpers clear 7' 0" in our stadium. I imagine that's pretty rare.

My beloved Stark County's oldest records:
Girls: A 19' 3.75" long jump from 2000.

Boys: Canton McKinley's 3:17.5h in the 4x400m from 1971 and the great Alliance sprinter Anthony Blair's 200m and 400m times of 20.8h and 46.5h from 1976. All other county records are from 2000 or later. Incidentally, that record from 2000 was in the shot put. It broke a record that was set in 1967. Thus, the county record in boys shot put has only been broken by 1 person in the last 52+ years!

How about this one? Massillon's mile/1600m record. A young man from Massillon HS ran a 4:38.4 mile in 1916. His time stood as the school record until 1965 when it was lowered to 4:33.9. The 1965 time still stands as the school record. Massillon's boys mile/1600m record has only been lowered once in the past 103+ years!
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
The oldest school records on the books at my school:
Girls: We have a pair from 1981 by the same person - an 18' 0" long jump and a 56.45 400m dash. I don't know that the long jump will ever be broken. We have had another girl break 57 in the 400, so it's possible that the right girl will come along one day to break that record.

Boys: Pole Vault - 14' 0" from 1969. record was tied in 2003 but hasn't been broken. I don't remember what my school's 4x200m record was set as when the event was re-implemented to counter the implementation of girls PV, but whatever it was, I uncovered a pair of 4x220yd. relays that converted to faster times. The faster of the 2 was from 1975 and the other from 1965. Thankfully, that 1975 time was shattered a few years ago to end any type of controversy or dilemma.

The quality isn't the highest, but boys HJ might be my school's deepest school record. 2 boys are tied for the top spot at 6' 7", but 5 more are tied at 6' 6" with at least 1 more at 6' 5".

The oldest stadium records on the books at my school:
Girls: A 5' 6.5" high jump from 1993. All other girls stadium records were achieved in 2005 or more recently.

Boys: A two mile time from 1976 that converts to a 9:34.3h 3200m. The next oldest stadium record is from 1988. We've also had 2 high jumpers clear 7' 0" in our stadium. I imagine that's pretty rare.

My beloved Stark County's oldest records:
Girls: A 19' 3.75" long jump from 2000.

Boys: Canton McKinley's 3:17.5h in the 4x400m from 1971 and the great Alliance sprinter Anthony Blair's 200m and 400m times of 20.8h and 46.5h from 1976. All other county records are from 2000 or later. Incidentally, that record from 2000 was in the shot put. It broke a record that was set in 1967. Thus, the county record in boys shot put has only been broken by 1 person in the last 52+ years!

How about this one? Massillon's mile/1600m record. A young man from Massillon HS ran a 4:38.4 mile in 1916. His time stood as the school record until 1965 when it was lowered to 4:33.9. The 1965 time still stands as the school record. Massillon's boys mile/1600m record has only been lowered once in the past 103+ years!
Let me take a stab at the boy in 1916...his name was James Croxton? He was 3rd in the 880 yard run at the State meet in 1916. Did not place in the Mile (or maybe didn't run it).

Massillon's State team in 1916:

440 yard - 1st - 52.0 sec. - Roland Harrold (Jr.)
880 yard - 3rd - NT - James Croxton (Sr.)
Mile Relay - 3rd - NT - Roland Harrold (Sr.), Elwin Stults, Jr. (Jr.), Paul Houriet (Sr.), Morris Chase (Sr.)
Pole Vault - 3rd (4-way tie) - ? - Elwin Stults, Jr. (Jr.)
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
As a follow-up on the Massillon boy from 1916, Morris Chase may be the answer to Mile record-holder. He was also a Massillon mile star that year.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
As a follow-up on the Massillon boy from 1916, Morris Chase may be the answer to Mile record-holder. He was also a Massillon mile star that year.
What would your guess be if I told you the year was 1915 and not 1916? The local newspaper's fact-checking dept. strikes again!

In the 1965 article written when the record was lowered to 4:33.9, the local paper reported the previous record was set in 1916, but the athlete tied to the previous record was competing at Pitt as a freshman in the spring of 1916. I stuck with the name and went back 1 year and found a time of 4:38.8 from June 12, 1915 at a meet held at the U. of Akron. Most likely, the newspaper transcribed the 1915 time to 4:38.4 because the time reported back then was 4:38 4/5 seconds. Said athlete was also quite handy in the 100 and 220 as well as the mile relay.

I also stuck with the year of 1916 and searched with both of the names you mentioned here and found nothing to indicate that either athlete competed in the mile during the 1916 season.

Make it 1 improvement to Massillon's mile/1600m record in the past 104+ years. That blows my mind!
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
What would your guess be if I told you the year was 1915 and not 1916? The local newspaper's fact-checking dept. strikes again!

In the 1965 article written when the record was lowered to 4:33.9, the local paper reported the previous record was set in 1916, but the athlete tied to the previous record was competing at Pitt as a freshman in the spring of 1916. I stuck with the name and went back 1 year and found a time of 4:38.8 from June 12, 1915 at a meet held at the U. of Akron. Most likely, the newspaper transcribed the 1915 time to 4:38.4 because the time reported back then was 4:38 4/5 seconds. Said athlete was also quite handy in the 100 and 220 as well as the mile relay.

I also stuck with the year of 1916 and searched with both of the names you mentioned here and found nothing to indicate that either athlete competed in the mile during the 1916 season.

Make it 1 improvement to Massillon's mile/1600m record in the past 104+ years. That blows my mind!
Let me take a stab...Welker Albright.

Massillon didn't score, and probably didn't participate in the 1915 State meet.
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
A direct hit! Give yourself a gold star.
With respect to timing methodologies of early in the 20th century, stop watches commercially available recorded to the nearest 1/5 second. Timing to 1/10 seconds didn't become available until the 1920s. The state meet didn't go to 1/10 seconds until 1924.
 

Tartan78

Active member
I think that any way a coach decides to keep marks and records is fine as long as they stay as consistent as possible. The next coach may go another direction which is his or her perogative. There always seem to be different twists. There are many who do not see these lists as important and let them drop so another reason for the outsiders so-to-speak to be coveted. New coaches will be inclined keep what is already in place due to the difficulty of tracking down older and better records and top 10 lists. For this reason the sewards of the programs who compile these things are invaluable and their method should accepted even if different from other programs.

Claymont having 10 over 50 is impressive for a school of that size as are others listed so far. For the deep lists like Claymont in the shot put, do you think it is emphasis, coaching, clientele, a combination, or many different reasons for various schools.

Keep tossing out those very deep quality marks and non-records that are exceptional. I am also fascinated with high ranking marks from many years ago. Any really old marks that have survived time?
I feel that in large part it is Coaching. Jeff Arthurs is a tremendous coach and had his hand in the majority if not all the 50 foot throwers. Claymont is also good at finding explosive/ fast bigger kids. I know of three in the 50 foot plus club at Claymont than ran a sub 12 second 100 m dash.
 

jktrack

Member
I think win-loss records are tough to do. I think whoever said don't count regionals and state meets makes sense.
Even if you do that the records sound inflated. I just prefer to count conference, district, regional and state titles.
 

Perry 67

Well-known member
Anthony Blair from Alliance still has a mid 40s record in the 400 meters. Sorry: Anthony Blair (Alliance) 46.5, 1976 Been the record in Stark for quite a while.
 

galesxc

Member
That's a great one. I once coached in their league. They probably have had close to double digits in numbers of 60' shot putters also. Their girls SP depth would be impressive as well. I guess Fitch would be way up there in the SP.
6801

... here's the Lancaster 1600M top 10 (the top 3 are converted miles)
6802

The 800M is pretty deep...
6803

I thought we had 2020 guys in position to break into each of these top 10s... The honor is in the effort.
 

mathking

Active member
For our boys I think the best "second best" performance is either 9:08.60 in the 3200 run or 7:42.46 in the 4x400. For our girls it is probably 24.44 in the 200 dash. Although on the girls side 10:55 in the 3200 run for 4th best is also pretty good.
 

tmk

Member
Ours would probably be a 2:10.32 that isn't the girls school record in the 800.

For the boys, a converted 9:03 3200, behind a sub 9 minute 2 mile.
 
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