Depth of Records

In this slow time of year I try to promote some activity on the message board. Last year I asked about how people came up with their user names. I am fascinated by records. It seems some schools seem to have many great athletes in the same events for many years. It could be because of school support, great coaching, tradition, or many other reasons. Can you think of exceptional times and marks that are not school records? The first example I think of is Laron Brown does not have the 400 record at Dunbar (Roth). Another example might be Athlete A is only number 4 on Team A's shot put list with a 62' throw or female Athlete B only number 3 at School B with a 4:55 1600. Some schools just seem to produce many incredible marks in the same events. Whether it is your school or not, can you name some outstanding marks without looking them up that is not a school record or a little down their all-time list?
 
That's a great one. I once coached in their league. They probably have had close to double digits in numbers of 60' shot putters also. Their girls SP depth would be impressive as well. I guess Fitch would be way up there in the SP.
 

ENA2

Member
A few years ago, I notice that NFL player Brian Hartline (Canton Glen-Oak) was on the ALL-TIME Ohio "Top 10" list in the 300 hurdles at 36.5 or so. He also clocked 14.04 FAT in the 110 hurdles. Interestingly, he was not the school record holder in either as Derrick Williams has that honor. Because of this, we started an "All-Time stark County list" for every event from Stark County Athletes. We have the top 25 or so for each event in the Stark County Meet Program.
Not sure if that list is still on a PDF file or can be shared here, but there are a few schools who have more than one kid in the top 10 EVER for the county in some events.
Maybe Mr. Slippery or someone else has access to that file as I do not. It is a great thing for stat geeks like me to look over.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
A few years ago, I notice that NFL player Brian Hartline (Canton Glen-Oak) was on the ALL-TIME Ohio "Top 10" list in the 300 hurdles at 36.5 or so. He also clocked 14.04 FAT in the 110 hurdles. Interestingly, he was not the school record holder in either as Derrick Williams has that honor. Because of this, we started an "All-Time stark County list" for every event from Stark County Athletes. We have the top 25 or so for each event in the Stark County Meet Program.
Not sure if that list is still on a PDF file or can be shared here, but there are a few schools who have more than one kid in the top 10 EVER for the county in some events.
Maybe Mr. Slippery or someone else has access to that file as I do not. It is a great thing for stat geeks like me to look over.
Before I respond, I must say that Zishka's non-school record performance is phenomenal!

Hartline was a terrific hurdler. His best 300 time is listed as 36.69. His 14.06 in the 100 is 4th all-time in Stark County history but still an excellent time for a school's 2nd best hurdler ever.

Before I go on, an element to consider is school size. It might not be a rare sight for a larger school to produce multiple "fasties" in a particular event (for example, Hudson with Mau and Gaynor running distance events a couple years ago or St. X's Hall and Vitucci from a couple years earlier), but for a small school to have a couple girls record a sub-5:00 in the 1600 or some other great efforts in a particular event, that might get one's attention. We all know what type of role school size can play in producing faster relays, too.

Anyhow, I have last year's Stark County meet program right in front of me. A few non-school records that jumped out at me, some being more impressive than others depending on your grasp of what other schools around Ohio have accomplished:

Boys HJ, Devin Smith of Massillon jumped 7' 0.5" in 2011, but teammate Jamil Dudley jumped 7' 1" in 2010. How many schools in Ohio can claim 2 7'+ high jumpers?

Boys 4x400, Canton McKinley, 3:18.06 in 2017. They had a quartet finish the mile relay in 3:17.5h back in 1971. Those are the top 2 in Stark County history.

Girls 4x100, GlenOak, 47.32 in 2011. Their 2010 quartet had 3 of those 4 girls from 2011 and ran 47.05 for the county record.

Girls 4x800, St. Thomas Aquinas, 9:11.32 in 2017. The time may not seem like much except for the fact that we're talking about a DIII school, and that time would be the Ohio DIII record if not for the St. Thomas Aquinas quartet that ran the Ohio DIII record of 9:05.84 in 2016. St. Thomas Aquinas has had different combinations produce the 3 fastest 4x800 times in the history of Ohio DIII Girls Track & Field. The Soehnlen twins (Kacee and Kalee) were on all 3 of those relays, but the other 2 relay members varied. I know schools like Mason, Geneva, Centerville, etc. have produced multiple fast girls 4x800s. St. X boys have a couple fast 4x800 quartets to their name as well.

Girls HJ, it's not every day that a girl who high jumped 5' 8" is not the school record holder, but such is the case for Hoover's Kristin Frakes from 2001. Maddie Morrow is the queen of the HJ at Hoover after jumping 5'11" 10 years later.

Girls 3200, Athena Welsh of St. Thomas Aquinas ran 10:38.34 in 2016. Kalee Soehnlen had to go and beat that the following year with a DIII state record 10:24.57 under the lights at Carrollton while everyone looked the other way as lightning flashed across the sky for several laps. Again, what makes it incredible is we're talking about a DIII school here.

Girls 1600, Kalee Soehnlen got the St. Thomas 3200 record, but her 4:56.06 in the 1600 in 2017 didn't top Athena Welsh's 4:49.06 from the year before.

Boys 3200, Fairless' Joel Marchand's 1980 Class AA state title winning 9:13.4h isn't good enough to be a record at his mid-sized school thanks to Aaron Melhorn's county record of 9:06.4h from 2006. Marchand finished with 5 career state titles compared to Melhorn's 3. As of this moment, Melhorn is not in his school's Athletic HoF.

Girls 100, GlenOak has had 3 girls break 12.00! Kandace Thomas is the queen at 11.71 in 2010. Nina Grambling comes in at 11.93 in 2011 with Jericha Mann scooting to 11.99 in 2005. Only 1 other school in Stark County has ever had 1 girl break 12.00 in the 100.

Boys 100, Stark County has a 10.59 and 10.61 amongst its top 6 boys 100 times ever. Neither is a school record. Massillon sprinter Deionne Harper's 10.59 from 2015 is .03 behind county leader Devin Smith's 10.56 from 2011, and Uniontown Lake's Jimmy Luther clocked a 10.61 in 2010, but that doesn't top Dan Bailey's 10.57 from 2002.

Can 148'6" be your school record in the girls discus? Not for Hoover's Krista Ross from 2000. The great Ashley Muffet shattered that one 5 years later with a 162' 4". That's just a prelude for the ones I'll mention next that were not from Stark County:

The Pendleton sisters from Elmore Woodmore where Erin has the DIII state meet and Owens Stadium record of 168'10", but Emily has the Ohio DIII record and thus the Woodmore school record of 183' 3". Schools like McDonald (Matthias Tayala and Christian Smith in the discus), Rootstown, Garrettsville Garfield, and the aforementioned Lancaster also come to mind for this one since they're always churning out state championship caliber throwers. Tayala threw 196' 3" for the DIII state meet record in 2011. Smith said "hold my protein shake" and launched it 203' 9" in 2015 for the Ohio DIII record.

What about Olentangy Liberty's Uhle brothers in the pole vault? Chris vaulted either 16' 9" or 16' 10" as his career best (16'9" in 2010 for sure, I can't recall if he cleared 16' 10" in 2011). Brother Joey bested him with a 17'0" effort in 2011.
 
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JAVMAN83

Active member
Joe Uhle vaulted 17' at the District meet (Hilliard Bradley @ Dublin Coffman HS) on 21 May 2011. His brother, Chris, vaulted his best of 16' 9" in winning the State meet in 2010.
 

SOTT

Active member
Joe Uhle vaulted 17' at the District meet (Hilliard Bradley @ Dublin Coffman HS) on 21 May 2011. His brother, Chris, vaulted his best of 16' 9" in winning the State meet in 2010.
And their brother Mike before them was pretty dang good, too! Ended up being a 17-9 vaulter at Akron.
 

ccrunner609

Active member
We keep top 10 performances in each event. 10th fastest time in the girls 400 is a 58. 10th fastest in the mens 800 is a 1:56. Not bad for a small DII school.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
We keep top 10 performances in each event. 10th fastest time in the girls 400 is a 58. 10th fastest in the mens 800 is a 1:56. Not bad for a small DII school.
That's very good depth for a smaller school. I'm not sure which is more impressive: the depth of your top 10 performers in those events or the fact that you have maintained an accurate performance list to 10 places. It was difficult enough for me to construct a top 3 for my school. Based on my personal knowledge (i.e. performances I knew of from my days competing and coaching), old meet results (very few of which were kept), and what I could find in newspaper microfilms, I couldn't go beyond the top 3 with much confidence as to its validity. I would've missed some athletes who produced losing or non-scoring performances that would not have appeared in the newspapers.
 

CoventryTrackXCguy

Active member
Coventry high jumping records in recent years:

2014: (12)Luke Bogdanovich 6'4''
(9)Dillain Raines 6'0''

2015: (10) Dillain Raines 6'0''
(11) Nick Jones 6'0''

2016: (10) Treon Sibley 6'2''___state qualifier
(11) Dillain Raines 6'1'' regional qualifier
(12) Nick Jones 6'1''

2017: (11) Treon Sibley 6'2''___6th at regionals
(12) Dillain Raines 6'3''___state qualifier

2018: (11) Austin Hinzman 6'1'' regional qualifier

2019: (12) Austin Hinzman 6'4'' regional champion/ state qualifier.

Coventry high jumping may not be elite, but they've been doing our team proud for quite a few years now.

Also Coventry long jumping deserves mention, for having two guys, Austin Hinzman, and Jimmie Painter clearing 22 feet last season and both qualifying to the state championship in the same season. Both those athletes broke the school record which prior to this was at 21'8''
 

ccrunner609

Active member
That's very good depth for a smaller school. I'm not sure which is more impressive: the depth of your top 10 performers in those events or the fact that you have maintained an accurate performance list to 10 places. It was difficult enough for me to construct a top 3 for my school. Based on my personal knowledge (i.e. performances I knew of from my days competing and coaching), old meet results (very few of which were kept), and what I could find in newspaper microfilms, I couldn't go beyond the top 3 with much confidence as to its validity. I would've missed some athletes who produced losing or non-scoring performances that would not have appeared in the newspapers.

The records kept and compiled is amazing where I am. We have a 1936 javelin record on the books.
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
The records kept and compiled is amazing where I am. We have a 1936 javelin record on the books.
May I inquire about that 1936 javelin record? What school? I've been compiling all-time Ohio lists of the "javelin era" (1917-1938) down to the 170' level. Below is my ROUGH listing so far. Haven't done much work yet in this area, but hope to have a far deeper listing within a few years.
 

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tmk

Member
JAVMAN - We have also have a Jav record from back in the 30's.

Ours is 1937, 172'0, Walt Michael, from when the high school was just Amherst (now Amherst Steele). Meet was at Amherst. He would have been a senior that year.
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
JAVMAN - We have also have a Jav record from back in the 30's.

Ours is 1937, 172'0, Walt Michael, from when the high school was just Amherst (now Amherst Steele). Meet was at Amherst. He would have been a senior that year.
Thank you. Will log that one.
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
Just last week, I got a request for the udated stats on La Salle Track & Field, so I sent the requester what I call the La Salle's Track & Field Bible, I separate yard lists from meter lists, also maintain top ten ranking for meets we have been going to for years. Last spring I updated this program which hadn't been updated in three years. The time involved in this effort boggles the mind but it was a labor of love that went on for decades. Ah, the memories that flashed through me as I perused this program were great to go down memory lane, never get tired of going over this again. As always, I post this to give others ideas for their historical data not to beat my own chest.
A labor of love. I know the feeling.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
I want to know how La $alle compiles it's coaching records. (example) 1985-2018 Frank Russo 3826-577-17 What meets are counted? The State Meet is not counted. There are almost 600 losses from 2000-2018 there. What do you count as wins and loses in track and field? Do you go up to the Regional meet? I'm not saying that it's not legit, I'm just trying to figure in my mind how you possibly keep a coaching record of wins and loses in track and field. Do you count the State meet where if the team finished 40th, you might have 30 wins, but 39 loses? Do you just go through the District meet where all your meets should have been with full teams, and not count the Regional and State meets where you don't have full teams?

Looking at Coach Russo's record, there are 4,420 contests. over 34 years. That's 130 contests per year. What's all included in that and is there an agreed upon method of accounting for coaching wins and loses in track and field?
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
I want to know how La $alle compiles it's coaching records. (example) 1985-2018 Frank Russo 3826-577-17 What meets are counted? The State Meet is not counted. There are almost 600 losses from 2000-2018 there. What do you count as wins and loses in track and field? Do you go up to the Regional meet? I'm not saying that it's not legit, I'm just trying to figure in my mind how you possibly keep a coaching record of wins and loses in track and field. Do you count the State meet where if the team finished 40th, you might have 30 wins, but 39 loses? Do you just go through the District meet where all your meets should have been with full teams, and not count the Regional and State meets where you don't have full teams?

Looking at Coach Russo's record, there are 4,420 contests. over 34 years. That's 130 contests per year. What's all included in that and is there an agreed upon method of accounting for coaching wins and loses in track and field?
Not speaking for Lancermania, but knowing him and my best intuition, I suggest that the win-loss record is based on team scores vs. other teams whether they be in dual meets or invitationals. I'd guess that it would truly be insane to look at a win-loss record on an event-by-event match-up, per meet. Even I'm not that nuts, and you've all seen the depths of lists that I'll go to. I've now got 101 races in the girls' 60 meters that are 7.66 seconds or better, and I'm recording ALL I can find sub-8.00 seconds. For the boys, sub-7.00 seconds. That's the insanity I'm dealing in, but I think Lancermania's win-loss listing is what I said it was.

Lancermania?
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
La Salle goes to strictly invitationals. Look at the last three pages of the program, and it becomes crystal clear how the record is tabulated, e.g. in 2018, there were 12 teams at the Vince Mercure Invitational which La Salle won. You will be the records as 11-0 for that meet since La Salle finished ahead of eleven teams by points.
Exactly as I suspected!!!
 

yj_runfan

Well-known member
La Salle goes to strictly invitationals. Look at the last three pages of the program, and it becomes crystal clear how the record is tabulated, e.g. in 2018, there were 12 teams at the Vince Mercure Invitational which La Salle won. You will see the records as 11-0 for that meet since La Salle finished ahead of eleven teams by points.
So, post-season meets are not included?
 
I would think any decent team could post a lopsided won/lost number. Place 7th at the Tiffin Carnival and 8th at Boardman and
you will be 90 and 13
 
The won/lost record really is only certain in CC where if a team has a score posted it was a full team.
In track you will beat many team's scores that have only a couple or even one participant.
Woodridge must have been about 200 and 0 in Ohio last fall
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
District meets are since you enter a full team, but regional and state aren't because your full team is not at those meets.
I just randomly selected the meet before the GCL to see if all the teams that La$alle beat were full teams. It's not even a legit meet. It has Medley relays. Events that aren't normally scored. Steeple, Tripple Jump. Many teams that did not enter full teams by any stretch of the imagination. Why would the Roosevelt Memorial Track and Field Invitational be included in wins and losses but Regional and State meets aren't? I was going to go through a season of the meets listed and see if there were any teams that weren't full teams at invites. First one I come to blows the whole thing up.

I don't know a good way of doing it, but it seems that as impressive as La$alles track and field bible is, it's still flawed. And by the way, La$alle has some impressive records and to the topic of this thread, they have some good depth. The bible is also a very impressive document.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
The won/lost record really is only certain in CC where if a team has a score posted it was a full team.
In track you will beat many team's scores that have only a couple or even one participant.
Woodridge must have been about 200 and 0 in Ohio last fall
246 and 0
Note: More impressive than the record is that my son actually could find his 2019 team Stats book.

I honestly thought it would only be like 100-150 and 0 . I thought Bill Carson might have been exaggerating.
 

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
246 and 0
Note: More impressive than the record is that my son actually could find his 2019 team Stats book.

I honestly thought it would only be like 100-150 and 0 . I thought Bill Carson might have been exaggerating.
If Psycho Dad and Kit Carson want to include regional and state results, then I have to go back and redo the team records. If PD says you can't count medley relays in the team totals what about two or three man field relay results or events like the 4 X 1600 relay. Why pick and choose, Track & Field is track and field no matter how you guys want to slice it. Some meets have triple jumps, 40 yard dashes, stepple chase, I assume you guys want to redo team scoring for only the events being held at the state tournament and only score the teams that enter people in every single event of the standard track/field events. Since PD and BC consider the document I posted on here flawed, I deleted it from this thread.
 
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JAVMAN83

Active member
Whether a team fields a "full" team or not at a meet, the fact that the school has seen fit to field competitors at that meet competing for the school makes that representation a TEAM. Therefore, the scores ARE team scores, and thus any comparison between teams can only be done by comparing team scores, regardless of how many match-ups were done or not.

I stand by LaSalle's methodology. Every school can choose whatever way they wish to present themselves, and that includes school records posted. A team I used to coach for has had several records that were not differentiating between wind-aided marks or not. A real statistician discriminates between wind-aided or not, but schools can choose their own methodologies and do.

So, I stand with Lancermania's methodologies on this issue.
 

Run4Life

Member
Whether a team fields a "full" team or not at a meet, the fact that the school has seen fit to field competitors at that meet competing for the school makes that representation a TEAM. Therefore, the scores ARE team scores, and thus any comparison between teams can only be done by comparing team scores, regardless of how many match-ups were done or not.

I stand by LaSalle's methodology. Every school can choose whatever way they wish to present themselves, and that includes school records posted. A team I used to coach for has had several records that were not differentiating between wind-aided marks or not. A real statistician discriminates between wind-aided or not, but schools can choose their own methodologies and do.

So, I stand with Lancermania's methodologies on this issue.
If you are not counting win/lost in regards to regional and state meets, we should also get rid of team champions and runner up awards. Individuals get their awards. Personally if my team places ahead of another school in the same competition, I think is counts. I have no problem with Lancermania stops counting after the district meet, and he has been consistent throughout his record keeping it seems.
 
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