Freak Hands
Active member
Kind of think Tiffin should be top 10 somewhere. And don't sleep on Bellefontaine.
D3 Region 9 Playoff thread
- Thread starter Jaws31
- Start date
simkon
Well-known member
I didn't rank them. I think the problem with that is that it doesn't work because the better team does not win everytime. Using similar logic one could also either say that Canfield should be ranked 3rd or that Ursuline should be ranked just above Canfield in the high teens or low twenties since they only barely beat Canfield.
Consider Canfield also beat #14 and #15 on the list Dover and Chaney, so by your own logic, they would have to be ahead of them since Canfield did beat them.
Also by your logic #3 Chardon lost to Kenston and Tiffin Columbian, so they should be no better than #12.
I would also be remiss if I didn't point out Canfield had a bunch of their beat players injured and unavailable agianst Mansfield, Olmsted Falls and Poland. Canfield would have lost to Olmsted Falls either way but, in light of the fact they only barely lost to Mansfield and Poland, it is safe to say had everyone been 100% and able to play they would have won. And Olmsted Falls nearly upset Avon who was one of the 3 favorites along with Massillon and Archbishop Hoban to win D-II.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
Which site is this taken from?
simkon
Well-known member
It was either SBL or Highschool Football America, I was looking at a few different rankings compared to Drew Pasteur, Cal Preps et al.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
Drew Pasteur
Division III rankingsUpdated 03-Nov-2023 11:08PM
Week 12 complete
Scores & schedules courtesy of Joe Eitel
Bold = Still Playing
1. #6 Toledo Central Catholic (13-0 D3 R10)
2. #15 Ursuline (13-0 D3 R9)
3. #17 Chardon (10-3 D3 R9)
4. #27 Wapakoneta (10-3 D3 R12)
5. #30 Bishop Watterson (12-1 D3 R11)
6. #36 Badin (13-0 D3 R12)
7. #50 Villa Angela-St Joseph (9-4 D3 R9)
8. #58 London (11-1 D3 R11)
9. #59 Tiffin Columbian (11-2 D3 R10)
10. #62 Kenston (10-2 D3 R9)
11. #70 Geneva (10-2 D3 R9)
12. #71 Aurora (11-2 D3 R9)
13. #75 Trotwood-Madison (9-3 D3 R12)
14. #76 Canfield (7-4 D3 R9)
15. #80 Bloom-Carroll (10-3 D3 R11)
16. #88 Bellefontaine (11-2 D3 R11)
17. #92 Celina (11-2 D3 R12)
18. #93 Bellbrook (8-4 D3 R12)
19. #97 Mansfield Senior (10-3 D3 R10)
20. #104 Norton (11-1 D3 R10)
21. #109 Dover (6-5 D3 R9)
22. #110 Jackson (10-2 D3 R11)
23. #115 Tri-Valley (9-3 D3 R11)
24. #131 Granville (12-1 D3 R11)
25. #137 Ontario (10-2 D3 R10)
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
SBLive has rankings only through the end of the regular season.
Ohio Division 3 High School Football Computer Rankings
View the Ohio Division 3 high school Football Rankings. Follow your favorite school's scores, schedules, video highlights, articles and more at sblivesports.com and scorebooklive.com
All I could find on Highschool Football America is a State Top-25 thru playoff week 1, nothing by division.
simkon
Well-known member
The one site can't remember which has options to select from 3 different rating/ranking systems, you have to select I think it is the computer option or something like that, that is the only one that is updated as of this week's results.
I think they are based off of Jeff Sagarin's model who also does ratings/rankings for Indiana HS Football as well.
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TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
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simkon
Well-known member
No that isn't the rankings I pasted, they had Geneva as 2nd and didn't even have Central Catholic as 1st either, thought they were not very good to be perfectly honest.
Are you familiar with the site in the screenshot below?
Attachments
5 different types of teams? I think anyone can say that about any team but probably holds the least water for Chardon since they essentially run the same O for the last…well…..forever….D is always tough and gritty……maybe avg 2 more passes per game than the norm.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
No. What site is this? How am I to know based on a screen image from a Samsung phone? Is this a site you now prefer because it keeps Canfield in its Top 10?
See, you're missing the point @simkon . When you 'document' a ranking but don't include the source, aren't we just to assume that this is yours and therefore this ranking is the be-all and end-all of Division 3?
Don't provide a ranking, even if your own, without including its source.
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joeyb77
Well-known member
Agree and disagree at the same time. The scheme may be the same. But year to year strengths and weaknesses change.
As it does with just about every team….. stating the obvious….. obviously
simkon
Well-known member
A few things
1. You don't own this website
2. There is no rule that says I have to specify which rankings I post
3. If I post my own rankings I usually say something to that effect
To answer your question, the reason I posted these particular rankings is because I thought they were more reasonable than rankings that have Geneva 2nd and Central Catholic not even in the top 10. Although I must admit I was surprised when Canfield went up in these rankings when they lost to Ursuline, but it is because of how some of their opponents were considered to be stronger than previously thought and because they played a perceived really strong Ursuline team so close.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
Again, from where are these particular rankings coming? And which site did not have TCC in its top 10?
He’s pathological
Snowbelt Man
Active member
Subtle differences haha
simkon
Well-known member
The rankings are from Jeff Sagarin as seen in the screenshot yesterday. And the site that had Ursuline 1st and Geneva 2nd, had Central Catholic like 11th or 12th.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
Any chance you could provide the link to where Jeff Sagarin has his rankings of Ohio high school football teams by division? All I can find is his love for all things Indiana, not Ohio.
The site that had Ursuline #1 and Geneva #2 and TCC like #11 or #12, which one was this? Can't be SBLive as their algorithm had TCC #6 as shown in the screenshot above in #398.
simkon
Well-known member
The site uses his alogrithms and calculations, but the site is not under his personal site where he has rankings of a variety of different sports. Someone else has just applied it to all the Ohio teams.
I can't recall offhand which one had TCC 11 or 12 because I looked at so many different ones the past few days.
The lesson here is everyone and his brother posts rankings, some of them are easier to find, some are quite difficult to find, some of them seem pretty reasonable and some not so much, ultimately everyone on this forum is entitled to his opinion on which rankings are best or he can even do his own rankings but that does't mean the next guy has to agree with him.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
Strange, I keep all my frequent websites as favorites and can call them up in no time, PC and mobile.
Anyhow, I found your screenshot in #399 comes from Massey Ratings. The current D3 rankings, found at https://masseyratings.com/hsf2023/76408 are updated only through Week 12 and are:
Bold = Still Playing in Week 14
1. Toledo Central Catholic (12-0)
2. Ursuline (12-0)
3. Badin (12-0)
4. Bishop Watterson (11-1)
5. Chardon (9-3)
6. Wapakoneta (10-2)
7. Kenston (10-2)
8. London (11-1)
9. Tiffin Columbian (10-2)
10. Aurora (11-1)
11. VASJ (9-3)
12. Bloom-Carroll (10-2)
13. Granville (12-0)
14. Mansfield Senior (10-2)
15. Canfield (7-4)
16. Jackson (10-2)
17. Bellbrook (8-4)
18. Bellefontaine (10-2)
19. Geneva (10-2)
20. Celina (10-2)
Still looking for a site that has Canfield at #6. Thought Massey was it based on your prior responses, but I guess not.
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simkon
Well-known member
@TriangleMan
Massey has his own alogorithims and rankings systems, his is different than Sagarin. The website the rankings I posted comes from is presently unlisted as it is still undergoing minor changes and tweaks and isn't technically yet a finished or polished product quite yet. The gentlemen explained he is still trying to figure out exactly how to account for out of state and Canadien schools in his calculations and rankings. Presently teams that don't play at least 6 Ohio schools are not rated/ranked.
Massey has his own alogorithims and rankings systems, his is different than Sagarin. The website the rankings I posted comes from is presently unlisted as it is still undergoing minor changes and tweaks and isn't technically yet a finished or polished product quite yet. The gentlemen explained he is still trying to figure out exactly how to account for out of state and Canadien schools in his calculations and rankings. Presently teams that don't play at least 6 Ohio schools are not rated/ranked.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
So, you post information from an unlisted website, a source that has established no legitimacy, as some kind of an absolute (this is the TOP 10 D-III Rankings). So, howdja find it? Your supercomputer at work?
Edit note: added 'established'
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simkon
Well-known member
I contacted Jeff Sagarin and he referred me to this gentleman that was applying his ranking system to Ohio high schools since I asked him if he had ever done Ohio rankings as a curiousity.
Almost Prideful
Well-known member
Can you contact Jeff Sagarin again and ask him what the gentleman's name is so we can all have access to his rankings? If you'd hate to bother Mr. Sagarin again, perhaps the unknown gentleman's contact info is still in your recent calls/texts/emails?
simkon
Well-known member
The rankings are unlisted right now for a reason, he plans to have them public in the next year or two once he figures out the best way to account for out of state and Canadien teams. If he wanted everyone to have access to the rankings then the website would turn up in a google search.
Something that I am sure of is @fantastic50 can attest to the difficulty of accounting for every out of state team that Ohio teams play. I am sure if Drew has some spare time he can explain the challenges involved in this.
fantastic50
Active member
The challenge with including games against out-of-state opponents is that you need to know how good those non-OHSAA teams are. This typically requires including all of their opponents, and those teams' opponents, etc. until you are ranking the entirety of every state that plays at least one game against an OHSAA team. CalPreps does the whole country this way (with multiple full-time staff) but I don't have the time for that.
I ignore games against non-OHSAA teams for ranking & game prediction purposes, but for Harbin/playoff projection reasons, I need some estimate of how likely Ohio teams are to win future games against out-of-state opponents. For that, I take CalPreps' ratings of the non-Ohio opponents and convert them onto my rating scale. I don't update those numbers every week, but it's better than nothing.
The short version is that its easier to rate, rank, & predict in a "closed" group of teams such as the NFL, but much more difficult once you get into out-of-state games, or college FBS vs FCS, etc.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
simkotic
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