D1 Canton

Massillon#82

Well-known member
You really can't say its dishonest? They may actually place them the way they believe. Take a look at some of the other districts (like Copley) and if you base it just off of records its actually kinda mind boggling.
You can when it’s been happening for at least 30 years or so. Not to mention that it happens to non league teams. Anyone that thinks Hoover is a 5 seed clearly has not watched anyone else in the district play.
 

krs1

Well-known member
My only question with the committee approach is what are they going to use for the basis of the seeding: Eye test (watching every team a couple of times), schedule strength, and records and any other criteria to use. And how do you decide who is on this committee? There would probably be some bias in that as well.

Another approach would be to use the blended district as they had used several years ago, yeah the bias will still be there but it won’t be so noticeable
 

bass10

Well-known member
You can when it’s been happening for at least 30 years or so. Not to mention that it happens to non league teams. Anyone that thinks Hoover is a 5 seed clearly has not watched anyone else in the district play.
30 years? Come on man! Anyway, if I'm a head coach going thru the season, how many games played with Massillon, Wooster, Dover, Fitch or Alliance would I be able to personally see? How many scouts and why would I, could I send out to watch those teams? Then I have scouted and played league teams twice. Also, if I'm a head coach I am going to vote the way I think I'd have the best chance to win it and really could care less about my colleagues. If you look at some other districts you can clearly see this done.
 

afwpatfire

Well-known member
As long as they let the coaches vote, this is going to happen.
The one thing that surprises me is that the other coaches have never banded together to try to counteract some of the unbalanced Fed voting.
That being said after really doing an unbiased comparison, the rankings are probably pretty spot on. Problem is that group in the middle are all very even teams IMO.
 

ohiopup

Well-known member
Just a couple of notes....

1: There are actually only 6 OHSAA governing Districts
- NE / E / SE / SW / Central / NW
2: You might want to check who sits on the NEO Board
3: HQ ~ OHSAA in Columbus decides how many each of these basketball 'Districts'
- each of these 6 get at any given Division
4: HQ ~ OHSAA may assign a D-1 team in the EAST and/or SE District to NEO or Central
since they have few if and D-1 schools.
5: HQ ~ OHSAA assigns what basketball 'District' goes to which Regional

:>---

EGA
 

Mackinbiner

Well-known member
There are LOTS of points here to address so I'll hit a few of them.

Strictly looking at a team's record should have little bearing on what seed they deserve.

For the teams that some think were shortchanged - What key wins do they have? What is their record against DI teams? Who have they lost to?

Remember, 4 of Hoover's losses have come against DI top 10 teams.

I think these coaches know more about all of these teams than you can imagine.

The feeling of paranoia is strong here. A conspiracy is laughable.

The devil is in the details.

Regardless, you have to win to keep moving right on the bracket.
 

Massillon#82

Well-known member
There are LOTS of points here to address so I'll hit a few of them.

Strictly looking at a team's record should have little bearing on what seed they deserve.

For the teams that some think were shortchanged - What key wins do they have? What is their record against DI teams? Who have they lost to?

Remember, 4 of Hoover's losses have come against DI top 10 teams.

I think these coaches know more about all of these teams than you can imagine.

The feeling of paranoia is strong here. A conspiracy is laughable.

The devil is in the details.

Regardless, you have to win to keep moving right on the bracket.
Except the talk that the fed league coaches vote together has been absolutely going on for at least 30 years, to deny that means you haven’t paid attention at all previous to 2020.
Aren’t the coaches spending more time at practice and games and scouting future opponents then going to watch Wooster or Fitch play a Tuesday night game ? Can any of the coaches say they have watched all 13 teams live at least 3 times this season ?
The devil is in the details, is the most ignorant quote you use. The fact remains the fed league coaches vote together and would never go against each other. Lake is by far the worst team in this district and Hoover is certainly not a 5 seed. That will be proven in the tournament.
 

Mackinbiner

Well-known member
Except the talk that the fed league coaches vote together has been absolutely going on for at least 30 years, to deny that means you haven’t paid attention at all previous to 2020.
Kinda like the talk about the Loch Ness Monster that's been going on for many, many years. 😊
 

Mackinbiner

Well-known member
Aren’t the coaches spending more time at practice and games and scouting future opponents then going to watch Wooster or Fitch play a Tuesday night game ? Can any of the coaches say they have watched all 13 teams live at least 3 times this season ?
Do your own research!
 

afwpatfire

Well-known member
Time to move on, seeding is done and not gonna change. Let’s let the season wrap up and then get ready for what should be a very challenging bracket.
 

Elpapil

New member
I normally don’t chime in but here is my two cents. Fed coaches vote for fed teams because for the most part they all play a brutal schedule. Dover and Wooster won’t play a fed team until after the draw. Wooster plays nobody. Their best win is Dover. Yes they beat a strongsville team...., Dover plays nobody of D1 significance. If you arent willing to play top d1 talent then you will get no respect. Hoover beating glenoak and playing McKinley tough 2 times earns them some respect, yes they also have some bad losses, I know. Should they be the no. 5 maybe not but those fed coaches know how good they are and how dangerous they can be. Look at glenoaks record and who they have played and ask yourself are they worse than Wooster or Dover? No way. They handle each of them. wooster and Massillon have never been good in the tourney even with Wooster having great records like now. Beating a terrible orrville team by 16 doesn’t help the fed coaches think your good. Jackson might only have 5 wins but have been competitive every game for the most part Plus tradition gets them a higher seed whether it’s right or not. Jackson simply beats alliance 10/10 times. Dover, mass, and Wooster have a gripe but cmon play someone. Dover could very well beat Hoover next week, but play them earlier in the year so it matters. I’m not saying how the fed coaches vote is right or wrong but that is what they do I believe. Boardmen got respect this year, They played green and GlenOak, fed coaches saw them. Just my two cents.
 

Maxie

Well-known member
I normally don’t chime in but here is my two cents. Fed coaches vote for fed teams because for the most part they all play a brutal schedule. Dover and Wooster won’t play a fed team until after the draw. Wooster plays nobody. Their best win is Dover. Yes they beat a strongsville team...., Dover plays nobody of D1 significance. If you arent willing to play top d1 talent then you will get no respect. Hoover beating glenoak and playing McKinley tough 2 times earns them some respect, yes they also have some bad losses, I know. Should they be the no. 5 maybe not but those fed coaches know how good they are and how dangerous they can be. Look at glenoaks record and who they have played and ask yourself are they worse than Wooster or Dover? No way. They handle each of them. wooster and Massillon have never been good in the tourney even with Wooster having great records like now. Beating a terrible orrville team by 16 doesn’t help the fed coaches think your good. Jackson might only have 5 wins but have been competitive every game for the most part Plus tradition gets them a higher seed whether it’s right or not. Jackson simply beats alliance 10/10 times. Dover, mass, and Wooster have a gripe but cmon play someone. Dover could very well beat Hoover next week, but play them earlier in the year so it matters. I’m not saying how the fed coaches vote is right or wrong but that is what they do I believe. Boardmen got respect this year, They played green and GlenOak, fed coaches saw them. Just my two cents.
LOL! Keep making excuses.
 

Gbulldog

Member
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I normally don’t chime in but here is my two cents. Fed coaches vote for fed teams because for the most part they all play a brutal schedule. Dover and Wooster won’t play a fed team until after the draw. Wooster plays nobody. Their best win is Dover. Yes they beat a strongsville team...., Dover plays nobody of D1 significance. If you arent willing to play top d1 talent then you will get no respect. Hoover beating glenoak and playing McKinley tough 2 times earns them some respect, yes they also have some bad losses, I know. Should they be the no. 5 maybe not but those fed coaches know how good they are and how dangerous they can be. Look at glenoaks record and who they have played and ask yourself are they worse than Wooster or Dover? No way. They handle each of them. wooster and Massillon have never been good in the tourney even with Wooster having great records like now. Beating a terrible orrville team by 16 doesn’t help the fed coaches think your good. Jackson might only have 5 wins but have been competitive every game for the most part Plus tradition gets them a higher seed whether it’s right or not. Jackson simply beats alliance 10/10 times. Dover, mass, and Wooster have a gripe but cmon play someone. Dover could very well beat Hoover next week, but play them earlier in the year so it matters. I’m not saying how the fed coaches vote is right or wrong but that is what they do I believe. Boardmen got respect this year, They played green and GlenOak, fed coaches saw them. Just my two cents.
Well said...we will see as the tournament progresses.
 

Massillon#82

Well-known member
Should they be the no. 5 maybe not but those fed coaches know how good they are and how dangerous they can be.
Jackson might only have 5 wins but have been competitive every game for the most part Plus tradition gets them a higher seed whether it’s right or not. I’m not saying how the fed coaches vote is right or wrong but that is what they do I believe.
So now fed coaches seed teams on how “dangerous they can be” and “tradition gets them a higher seed”. Thanks for proving my point. 😂
 
Very good “analysis” Elpapil but get your facts straight. 1) Perry wouldnt re-up with Wooster after gettting beat 2 years in row 2) only date McKinley could make work was 2-15. 3) jackson didnt want to play cause they are “down” 4) hoover only wants to have Wooster play in their tourny against someone else...but not play Hoover. It take 2 to tango. Dont dodge them and then blame them for not playing Fed teams.
 

Elpapil

New member
Very good “analysis” Elpapil but get your facts straight. 1) Perry wouldnt re-up with Wooster after gettting beat 2 years in row 2) only date McKinley could make work was 2-15. 3) jackson didnt want to play cause they are “down” 4) hoover only wants to have Wooster play in their tourny against someone else...but not play Hoover. It take 2 to tango. Dont dodge them and then blame them for not playing Fed teams.
Listen I’m not saying your wrong, sometimes scheduling doesn’t work out or whatever but for the most part those teams schedules are weak. Wooster did a fair job this year trying to beef it up. Their conference does them no favors either. None of this matters, the cream always rises to the top for whoever the cream is on any particular year. The bottom line is a whole league should not be together in one district when there is other districts that half of them could be in.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Let's be real, the seeding is a joke. The non-Fed teams got the short end of the stick once again, and it's really obvious. How can a Wooster team with only one be behind seven loss teams Hoover and GlenOak?There's no way Hoover should be seeded that high, who have they beaten? And Massillon at #7 when they have 14 wins and beat GlenOak and Wooster.. seriously? And how is a 5-13 Jackson team ahead of an Alliance team that's 13-6, that is insane! How can anyone argue with a straight face that Jackson should be ahead of a team who has 8 more wins than them? Even as a supporter of a Federal League team, I'm not going to try to defend this. The Dover and Massillon supporters on here are correct and have a right to be upset about how this went down.
Have you looked at Alliance's schedule? It's nothing to brag about for a DI team in a difficult draw.

Those 13 wins have come against (records of NE District foes at time of seeding):
Fitch (8-8)
Marlington 2x (9-8)
Salem 2x (3-14)
Minerva 2x (East District does not post overall records, somewhere around 5-13 according to MaxPreps)
Canton South (5-12)
Carrollton (East District, somewhere around 11-7 according to MaxPreps)
Field (2-17)
Rootstown (2-16)
St. Thomas (6-9)
Garaway (East District, IVC website has them 8-10 overall)

Alliance has only played 2 games against teams in the DI Canton draw: a 2 pt. win over Fitch and a 23 pt. loss to Hoover. Their other 5 losses have been: West Branch 2x by 15 and 13, Canton CC by 18, Northwest by 16, and Canton South by 6.

Jackson is obviously having a dreadful season, but I wouldn't say that Alliance is clearly better this year.
 

Mackinbiner

Well-known member
Have you looked at Alliance's schedule? It's nothing to brag about for a DI team in a difficult draw.

Those 13 wins have come against (records of NE District foes at time of seeding):
Fitch (8-8)
Marlington 2x (9-8)
Salem 2x (3-14)
Minerva 2x (East District does not post overall records, somewhere around 5-13 according to MaxPreps)
Canton South (5-12)
Carrollton (East District, somewhere around 11-7 according to MaxPreps)
Field (2-17)
Rootstown (2-16)
St. Thomas (6-9)
Garaway (East District, IVC website has them 8-10 overall)

Alliance has only played 2 games against teams in the DI Canton draw: a 2 pt. win over Fitch and a 23 pt. loss to Hoover. Their other 5 losses have been: West Branch 2x by 15 and 13, Canton CC by 18, Northwest by 16, and Canton South by 6.

Jackson is obviously having a dreadful season, but I wouldn't say that Alliance is clearly better this year.
Excellent information. Thanks for taking the time. This is what I mean by the devil being in the details.
So, it looks like the Aviators have only played two games against DI competition. Yikes!
 

Massillon#82

Well-known member
Excellent information. Thanks for taking the time. This is what I mean by the devil being in the details.
So, it looks like the Aviators have only played two games against DI competition. Yikes!
What are the details that Hoover is the 5 seed.
Only 4 of their 11 wins against teams with a winning record.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
What are the details that Hoover is the 5 seed.
Only 4 of their 11 wins against teams with a winning record.
1) For starters, Massillon's own head coach voted Hoover the 5th seed, so he must see something in them. Incidentally, Massillon's head coach also voted Jackson 9th and Dover 10th.

2) I don't see much difference from the 4th to 9th teams in this draw. Those teams could play each other as much they want, and I'm not sold any team in that grouping would dominate any of the others in that same grouping.

3) As a collection, the coaches didn't see much difference between Hoover, Wooster, and Massillon. Only 8 voting pts. separated the 5th and 7th seeds before dropping everyone's highest and lowest point value. Even the non-Fed coaches were split on which team they felt was the best of Hoover, Wooster, and Massillon. The pecking order by non-Fed coaches was:
Alliance - Massillon, Hoover, Wooster
Fitch - Wooster, Hoover, Massillon
Boardman - Wooster, Hoover, Massillon
Dover - Wooster, Massillon, Hoover
Massillon - Hoover, Massillon, Wooster
Wooster - Wooster, Massillon, Hoover
Among Fed coaches, all but GlenOak voted Hoover ahead of Massillon and Wooster. GlenOak voted Massillon, Wooster, Hoover. Of those 6 Feds that had Hoover ahead of Massillon, McKinley was the only one that voted Wooster ahead of Massillon.

4) Hoover's only losses in the last 10 games have come against McKinley 2x and Green, the top 2 seeds in this draw. The losses to McKinley were by 5 pts. and 2 pts. Green is the only team to defeat Hoover by double digits this season. Hoover has a bad loss to Louisville on the card, but it was by 2 pts. instead of by 22 pts. Hoover's loss to Perry was by 1pt. and not 12 pts. Hoover has a pair of losses to McKinley but neither was by 15 pts. Hoover has shown they can play with anybody in this draw but Green. That's worth something when so many teams look to be on the same level. Their 20+ point win over Alliance and 30+ point win over Perry within the last week before the votes were submitted likely resonated with the coaches.

5) There's not much basis for a comparison between Wooster and Hoover. The closest thing we have at the time of the voting is Hoover's 16 pt. win over Mansfield vs. Wooster's 3 pt. win and 2 win over the Tygers. Also, Wooster is dogged by the same scheduling situation that is dogging Dover and Alliance. Big surprise, people generally vote for what they've heard of, as long as what they don't have an unfavorable opinion of what they've heard of.

I don't know if the coaches got it right or not, but I can see what they might have been looking at when trying to decide who should be the 5th seed.
 
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