Competitive balance

Gatorguy22

Gatorguy22

New member
When will they finally remove competitive balance for sports. With open enrollment, charter schools, loopholes in language it’s not competitive balance for PRIVATE SCHOOLS at all. Every public school athlete receives a “Scholarship” do they not? Word it any way you want. It’s Free. Some school districts give parents jobs housing etc. (You know who you are) So it’s time to eliminate this biased system. Any thoughts
 
 
Gatorguy22 said:
When will they finally remove competitive balance for sports. With open enrollment, charter schools, loopholes in language it’s not competitive balance for PRIVATE SCHOOLS at all. Every public school athlete receives a “Scholarship” do they not? Word it any way you want. It’s Free. Some school districts give parents jobs housing etc. (You know who you are) So it’s time to eliminate this biased system. Any thoughts
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You are so right, Akron Hoban gets no special advantage over Cuyahoga Falls at all. You are both equal. Lets move Hoban down to d5 and let them beat every team by 60. Great competition for all.
 
Gatorguy22 said:
It’s time to eliminate this biased system. Any thoughts
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If #CB was removed (2023).

D1 Elder - D2 | #200
(State Champ St. Eds | #270)

D2 Benedictine - D4 | #225
D2 Hoban - D3 | #185 (State Runner Up)
D2 SVSM - D3 | #108
D2 Desales - D3 | #50
(State Champ Massillon #35)

D3 TCC - D4 | #145 (State Champ)
D3 Gilmour Academy - D5 | #126
D3 Lutheran West - D4 | #120
D3 Villa Angela-St Joseph - D5 | #100
D3 Ursuline - D5 | #95
D3 Badin - D4 | #87
D3 Chaminade Julienne- D4 | #70
D3 Hawken - D4 | #55
D3 CVCA - D4 | #55
D3 Rossford - D4 | #45

D4 Lutheran East - D7 | #120
D4 Mooney - D7 | #105
D4 Bishop Fenwick D5 | #90
D4 Alter - D5 | #63 (State Runner up)
D4 Bishop Ready - D5 | #55
D4 Cleveland Central Catholic - D5 | #51
D4 Elyria Catholic - D5 | #50
D4 Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy - D5 | #42
D4 Lake Catholic - D5 | #42
D4 KIPP Columbus -D5 | #40
(State Champ - Glenville/GA #0)

D5 Harvest Prep - D6 | #65
D5 Summit Country Day - D6 | #45
D5 Northwood - D6 | #43
D5 Liberty Center - D6 | #40 (State Runner up)
D5 Purcell Marian - D6 | #40
D5 Worthington Christian - D6 | #38
D5 Pleasant - D6 | #22
(State Champ - Perry #2)

D6 Valley Christian School - D7 | #50
D6 Troy Christian - D7 | #36
D6 Newark Catholic - D7 | #33
(State Champ - Kirtland #2)

D7 (State Champ - Marion Local #1)

IMO, they do not need to eliminate it; rather, they should improve its enforcement.

If it were to be eliminated, would you support public schools being able to openly recruit athletes?
 
Gatorguy22 said:
When will they finally remove competitive balance for sports. With open enrollment, charter schools, loopholes in language it’s not competitive balance for PRIVATE SCHOOLS at all. Every public school athlete receives a “Scholarship” do they not? Word it any way you want. It’s Free. Some school districts give parents jobs housing etc. (You know who you are) So it’s time to eliminate this biased system. Any thoughts
Click to expand...

Never liked the idea of "competitive balance." It's a terrible excuse for programs that aren't successful.

All the more reason why I love seeing Marion Local dominate from a distance. Their community "figured it out."
 
Rack162 said:
If #CB was removed (2023).

D1 Elder - D2 | #200
(State Champ St. Eds | #270)

D2 Benedictine - D4 | #225
D2 Hoban - D3 | #185 (State Runner Up)
D2 SVSM - D3 | #108
D2 Desales - D3 | #50
(State Champ Massillon #35)

D3 TCC - D4 | #145 (State Champ)
D3 Gilmour Academy - D5 | #126
D3 Lutheran West - D4 | #120
D3 Villa Angela-St Joseph - D5 | #100
D3 Ursuline - D5 | #95
D3 Badin - D4 | #87
D3 Chaminade Julienne- D4 | #70
D3 Hawken - D4 | #55
D3 CVCA - D4 | #55
D3 Rossford - D4 | #45

D4 Lutheran East - D7 | #120
D4 Mooney - D7 | #105
D4 Bishop Fenwick D5 | #90
D4 Alter - D5 | #63 (State Runner up)
D4 Bishop Ready - D5 | #55
D4 Cleveland Central Catholic - D5 | #51
D4 Elyria Catholic - D5 | #50
D4 Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy - D5 | #42
D4 Lake Catholic - D5 | #42
D4 KIPP Columbus -D5 | #40
(State Champ - Glenville/GA #0)

D5 Harvest Prep - D6 | #65
D5 Summit Country Day - D6 | #45
D5 Northwood - D6 | #43
D5 Liberty Center - D6 | #40 (State Runner up)
D5 Purcell Marian - D6 | #40
D5 Worthington Christian - D6 | #38
D5 Pleasant - D6 | #22
(State Champ - Perry #2)

D6 Valley Christian School - D7 | #50
D6 Troy Christian - D7 | #36
D6 Newark Catholic - D7 | #33
(State Champ - Kirtland #2)

D7 (State Champ - Marion Local #1)

IMO, they do not need to eliminate it; rather, they should improve its enforcement.

If it were to be eliminated, would you support public schools being able to openly recruit athletes?
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There are public schools that openly recruit now.
 
Worm02 said:
Never liked the idea of "competitive balance." It's a terrible excuse for programs that aren't successful.

All the more reason why I love seeing Marion Local dominate from a distance. Their community "figured it out."
Click to expand...
What and how did they figure it out
 
Gatorguy22 said:
When will they finally remove competitive balance for sports. With open enrollment, charter schools, loopholes in language it’s not competitive balance for PRIVATE SCHOOLS at all. Every public school athlete receives a “Scholarship” do they not? Word it any way you want. It’s Free. Some school districts give parents jobs housing etc. (You know who you are) So it’s time to eliminate this biased system. Any thoughts
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My thoughts...
CB is not a great theory, but it works as a way to solve the real problem. The real problem is that public schools have MANDATORY EDUCATION and privates do not. The kid who does nothing, often misses school, and has no hope of ever being eligible counts against the public school enrollment number. Those kids do not exist at the private school.

If there was a way to compare eligible kids for divisional purposes, I would be great with that. Right now if Public school A has 200 boys, they might have 150 eligible, while Private school B with 200 boys has 200 eligible. (Yes, many public districts are that bad off, not b/c of the school but b/c of the parents)

Inflating the private school number, while I'm not sure the CB reason is the best one, does help bring those numbers closer to in balance.
 
The top 15% of teams over a 4 year time period should be promoted and bottom 15% should be demoted and thats the way to put similar teams in proper division
 
BigK72 said:
What and how did they figure it out
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Ohio's strong reputation in football was originally built on the backs of former industrial powerhouses. Massillon, Canton, Steubenville, Warren, Fostoria (railroads), Niles, etc. Those blue collar atmospheres bred tough kids. The first three Class AAA championships were won by Warren Western Reserve, Youngstown Cardinal Mooney (another former industrial powerhouse), and Warren G. Harding, who also won the last AP title before the playoff system was implemented (1971). That's why I often credit Massillon for "reinventing itself" while some areas have fallen off completely off.

In Ohio's larger cities (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Toledo, Akron, Youngstown, etc.), the better structures are often found in the private schools. When I was at Harding (1998-2002), we relished the opportunity to play St. Ignatius, Elder, Moeller, etc. because my generation was raised like that. We didn't think anything of "public vs. private" debate because the kids that I grew up with was ready for whoever.

Living in Warren, I understand why people in Youngstown traditionally chose to send their kids to Mooney, Ursuline, Harding, Austintown Fitch, etc. instead of Wilson, Rayen, East, Chaney, etc., so it doesn't shock me that parents in Akron would rather send their kids to Hoban/SVSM than Garfield or East. As a fan of Harding, I'm not going to pout about not being as strong as we were 20 years ago to face some of those challenges like we used to. Instead, I try to motivate those around me to "figure it out" just like Massillon has and no, that doesn't just happen overnight. We've recently taken some steps in the right direction, so we'll see how things progress.

It's my understanding that "MAC Country" is a group of farming communities that, for the most part, don't offer little league football. Whatever they're doing in those communities aligns perfectly with how their kids are raised/coached and clearly, Marion Local has the perfect formula in that regard. 14 state titles since 2000 doesn't just happen. Heck, one of those came against a loaded Ursuline squad (2007) and four years later, they started really dominating as they've won 10 state titles since 2011. At this point, winning it all is literally in their DNA. So much so, it's going to be much harder for another school their size to build themselves up enough to beat them than it will be for a large public to emerge and knock St. Eds off.
 
irish_buffalo said:
Competitive balance works. The OHSAA needs to take it a step further and figure out a way to get TCC and Hoban to DI.
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Privates (or many) have the leeway to adjust cost and criteria for guys they want. Selective enrollment overall, by definition, is superior to random and no getting around that. So trying to make oranges comparable to apples will always be a next to impossible endeavor. Academically or athletically. Most of the powers have at least been bumped up, to some effect albeit minimal, but it's certainly preferable to TCC competing in D4, or D3 Hoban etc.
 
TigerPaw said:
Privates (or many) have the leeway to adjust cost and criteria for guys they want. Selective enrollment overall, by definition, is superior to random and no getting around that. So trying to make oranges comparable to apples will always be a next to impossible endeavor. Academically or athletically. Most of the powers have at least been bumped up, to some effect albeit minimal, but it's certainly preferable to TCC competing in D4, or D3 Hoban etc.
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And this is not like when I attended a private Catholic HS 30 years ago. Today, schools like Hoban and CC have taxpayer funded scholarships at their disposal.
 
Rack162 said:
If #CB was removed (2023).

D1 Elder - D2 | #200
(State Champ St. Eds | #270)

D2 Benedictine - D4 | #225
D2 Hoban - D3 | #185 (State Runner Up)
D2 SVSM - D3 | #108
D2 Desales - D3 | #50
(State Champ Massillon #35)

D3 TCC - D4 | #145 (State Champ)
D3 Gilmour Academy - D5 | #126
D3 Lutheran West - D4 | #120
D3 Villa Angela-St Joseph - D5 | #100
D3 Ursuline - D5 | #95
D3 Badin - D4 | #87
D3 Chaminade Julienne- D4 | #70
D3 Hawken - D4 | #55
D3 CVCA - D4 | #55
D3 Rossford - D4 | #45

D4 Lutheran East - D7 | #120
D4 Mooney - D7 | #105
D4 Bishop Fenwick D5 | #90
D4 Alter - D5 | #63 (State Runner up)
D4 Bishop Ready - D5 | #55
D4 Cleveland Central Catholic - D5 | #51
D4 Elyria Catholic - D5 | #50
D4 Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy - D5 | #42
D4 Lake Catholic - D5 | #42
D4 KIPP Columbus -D5 | #40
(State Champ - Glenville/GA #0)

D5 Harvest Prep - D6 | #65
D5 Summit Country Day - D6 | #45
D5 Northwood - D6 | #43
D5 Liberty Center - D6 | #40 (State Runner up)
D5 Purcell Marian - D6 | #40
D5 Worthington Christian - D6 | #38
D5 Pleasant - D6 | #22
(State Champ - Perry #2)

D6 Valley Christian School - D7 | #50
D6 Troy Christian - D7 | #36
D6 Newark Catholic - D7 | #33
(State Champ - Kirtland #2)

D7 (State Champ - Marion Local #1)

IMO, they do not need to eliminate it; rather, they should improve its enforcement.

If it were to be eliminated, would you support public schools being able to openly recruit athletes?
Click to expand...
not sure of your point but all i see his the privates winning one additional championship. And thats if TCC beats Open Enrollment Glenville .
and to your point Public's been recruiting athletes for decades. Especially in big city BB the privates just got better at it. Probably because they can offer safer buildings for attending school.
 
Worm02 said:
Ohio's strong reputation in football was originally built on the backs of former industrial powerhouses. Massillon, Canton, Steubenville, Warren, Fostoria (railroads), Niles, etc. Those blue collar atmospheres bred tough kids. The first three Class AAA championships were won by Warren Western Reserve, Youngstown Cardinal Mooney (another former industrial powerhouse), and Warren G. Harding, who also won the last AP title before the playoff system was implemented (1971). That's why I often credit Massillon for "reinventing itself" while some areas have fallen off completely off.

In Ohio's larger cities (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Toledo, Akron, Youngstown, etc.), the better structures are often found in the private schools. When I was at Harding (1998-2002), we relished the opportunity to play St. Ignatius, Elder, Moeller, etc. because my generation was raised like that. We didn't think anything of "public vs. private" debate because the kids that I grew up with was ready for whoever.

Living in Warren, I understand why people in Youngstown traditionally chose to send their kids to Mooney, Ursuline, Harding, Austintown Fitch, etc. instead of Wilson, Rayen, East, Chaney, etc., so it doesn't shock me that parents in Akron would rather send their kids to Hoban/SVSM than Garfield or East. As a fan of Harding, I'm not going to pout about not being as strong as we were 20 years ago to face some of those challenges like we used to. Instead, I try to motivate those around me to "figure it out" just like Massillon has and no, that doesn't just happen overnight. We've recently taken some steps in the right direction, so we'll see how things progress.

It's my understanding that "MAC Country" is a group of farming communities that, for the most part, don't offer little league football. Whatever they're doing in those communities aligns perfectly with how their kids are raised/coached and clearly, Marion Local has the perfect formula in that regard. 14 state titles since 2000 doesn't just happen. Heck, one of those came against a loaded Ursuline squad (2007) and four years later, they started really dominating as they've won 10 state titles since 2011. At this point, winning it all is literally in their DNA. So much so, it's going to be much harder for another school their size to build themselves up enough to beat them than it will be for a large public to emerge and knock St. Eds off.
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You figure everyone who doesn't live in a city is a farmer?

They are not.
 
TCSoup said:
not sure of your point
and to your point Public's been recruiting athletes for decades.
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It isn't a point; I simply posted what it would be without it.

Publics cannot recruit in the same way that privates can. Sure, there's some BS that goes on, but public-school coaches are not in living rooms or restaurants with players from other schools.
 
Bidenomics said:
Moronic.
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Well if you cannot break the privates off from the publics and the teams that win all the time recruit and cheat, how are you supposed to solve the issue of the same 10 teams who win by breaking the rules. Bump up the top 5% and get all the cheaters in the same top 2 divisions.
 
Less divisions would work but still put the non-cheating teams in a huge disadvantage.
Everyone wonders why attendance is dropping like a rock for state games. Same teams every single year. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
 
queencitybuckeye said:
Translated, "My team isn't remotely good enough to win titles".
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Seems like the your definition of " My Team" includes about 98% of the teams in Ohio. You know, the ones that dont game the open enrolment system or the ones that blatently cheat and recruit like the Catholic superpowers. TCC lineup the past few years looks like a college team in high school.
 
invader03 said:
Well if you cannot break the privates off from the publics and the teams that win all the time recruit and cheat, how are you supposed to solve the issue of the same 10 teams who win by breaking the rules.
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Which teams are those? What are specific examples of cheating?

invader03 said:
Bump up the top 5% and get all the cheaters in the same top 2 divisions.
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Two divisions? That's over 200 "cheaters". Or are you sticking with your earlier of assessment "10 teams" -- which would be 5 teams per division.
 
Oil Filter said:
Which teams are those? What are specific examples of cheating?


Two divisions? That's over 200 "cheaters". Or are you sticking with your earlier of assessment "10 teams" -- which would be 5 teams per division.
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Here we go again. Lets see who recruits like Crazy. Could it be St. Eds and their entire conference. Toledo CC, Glenville, Ursuline, Hoban, Walsh, St V.
Anyone who makes it to finals yearly except for Marion local area. All those teams should be in same division and lower divisions to 3 and put all cheaters together.
 
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