Ask The Ump?

Runners on 1st and 3rd with 2 outs.

Batter hits a HR. Runner from 3rd misses home plate. Runner from 1st touches home plate. Batter touches home plate. After both score, the original runner from 3rd is told to go back and touch home.

Is the runner automatically out? Does the defense have to appeal? How many runs score? No harm, no foul?
A couple of things here. First, even though the runner from third misses the plate, other runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running duties. A home run is a dead ball so the appeal is verbal. And can be done by any member of the defense so long as all runners have an opportunity to complete baserunning duties and before they leave the field.

Because the runner who missed the base was the first one in the series, and constitutes the third out, no following runners can legally score. They can also not return to retouch after proceeding runners have touched. Therefore, no runs score.

see rule 3 section 2 penalty and article 6.
 
I was watching the World Baseball Classic and this happened. Play at first, the throw pulled the first baseman off the base. The first baseman reached back to tag the runner and his elbow hit the runners head but he clearly missed him with the tag. The runner was called out and the announcer said it was because the elbow was an extension of the glove?? I have never heard that and if correct, where does that “extension” end? Or did the umps just miss it and the announcer was wrong on his explanation?
Thanks
 
I was watching the World Baseball Classic and this happened. Play at first, the throw pulled the first baseman off the base. The first baseman reached back to tag the runner and his elbow hit the runners head but he clearly missed him with the tag. The runner was called out and the announcer said it was because the elbow was an extension of the glove?? I have never heard that and if correct, where does that “extension” end? Or did the umps just miss it and the announcer was wrong on his explanation?
Thanks
Announcers are clueless.

Haven't seen the play, but what you describe is not an out. Unfortunately for Puerto Rico, they could not challenge the call
 
Announcers are clueless.

Haven't seen the play, but what you describe is not an out. Unfortunately for Puerto Rico, they could not challenge the play
Lol, thank you! I thought I was losing my mind. I have never heard that before. I have a video of the play but I don’t know how to post it. It was interesting for sure.
Appreciate your insight as always.
 
Is there a rule that makes bat flips illegal in High School and/or College? What is the rule number?
There is not an NFHS rule specifically prohibiting this by the term 'bat flip.'

I place this under 3-3-f1, 2, and 4 and 3-3-l governing participant conduct and throwing of bats.

How it is handled (i.e. warn, restrict, eject or go right to eject) is in the judgement of the calling official. Since this action is unsporting, taking care of it via the rules and penalties prescribed will also be considered preventative officiating because - in certain views of baseball culture - it is likely the next pitch is going to be right at a batter which would be an immediate ejection of the pitcher and potential further conflict ensuing.

I don't have the NCAA rules book in front of me but surmise it's a similar rationale. In my early NCAA officiating days we did not preventatively officiate this situation, the next pitch came at the batter's head, and 9 ejections later we finally moved on. There were a combined 32 games missed due to penalties, and the conference coordinator made sure to let us know we did not handle it properly.

What I tell those who ask is that such actions are unnecessary. And that is why in rules of different you see unnecessary as part of describing a penalty (i.e. unnecessary roughness in football). If it were necessary, it would be permitted.

I am all in favor of showing emotion and passion. However, at times it crosses the line and must be addressed.
 
This seems like a simple question but but I saw something and I can't quite get a hold of which way it would go.

Runner on 1st, one out. Popup to SS and the offense thinks that there are two outs. Runner gets to second and after the catch by the SS is tagged for the double play. Runner was on 2nd base. SS rolls the ball to the mound and everyone leaves the field.

Was this correct? Can they tag him even though he is on a base or do they have to throw to first to get the out? I know, early season fog but never saw a play like this.
 
This seems like a simple question but but I saw something and I can't quite get a hold of which way it would go.

Runner on 1st, one out. Popup to SS and the offense thinks that there are two outs. Runner gets to second and after the catch by the SS is tagged for the double play. Runner was on 2nd base. SS rolls the ball to the mound and everyone leaves the field.

Was this correct? Can they tag him even though he is on a base or do they have to throw to first to get the out? I know, early season fog but never saw a play like this.
Yes he can be tagged in lieu of throwing back to the base to which he should have returned. Think of the famous unassisted triple plays that occur - this is usually one of the outs.
 
Thanks for the reply. I figure that the home plate ump is entirely focused on the ball and can't really see the feet of the batter. We've ended up playing several games on turf fields (due to the wet conditions) and that's where I saw a few hitters out of the box.
Following up on this, opening day game yesterday I counted 6 instances of the batter being out of the batter's box when he hit the ball.
 
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Batter hits a single to right field, the right fielder comes up throwing to first and the ball hits the runner after he touches base. The runner then picks up the ball and throws it to the pitcher. Should the runner should have been called out for picking up the ball. Nobody was on base at the time. Just curious, happened in a scrimmage so not a big deal. Thanks as always for the insight
 
By rule, handling a live ball offensively (by any member of the offense including say the on-deck batter) is interference with runners on. With no runners on, a good umpire would preventatively officiate and call time, get the ball back to the right player, and explain why this would be a bad thing with runners on. There is no penalty. A scrimmage would be a great place for this teachable moment.
 
Following up on this, opening day game yesterday I counted 6 instances of the batter being out of the batter's box when he hit the ball.
The answer pertaining to this rule was given last May. The rule has not changed.

I deleted the picture you posted because we do not see where the foot is when the ball contacts the bat.

Time to move on .......
 
The answer pertaining to this rule was given last May. The rule has not changed.

I deleted the picture you posted because we do not see where the foot is when the ball contacts the bat.

Time to move on .......
Copy. Another rule pertaining to hitters that I have never seen enforced is 7-3-1.
 
Game tonight: twice the first baseman tried the hidden ball trick. Both times the pitcher was in the dirt of the mound but NOT on the pitcher's plate (rubber). Balk called both times. I suggested after the game that they check the rule book and that I believed they were following the Major League Rule, and not the HS rule. Am I correct as I remember it, or has it been changed?
 
Game tonight: twice the first baseman tried the hidden ball trick. Both times the pitcher was in the dirt of the mound but NOT on the pitcher's plate (rubber). Balk called both times. I suggested after the game that they check the rule book and that I believed they were following the Major League Rule, and not the HS rule. Am I correct as I remember it, or has it been changed?
When runner(s) are on base and the pitcher places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball, he has committed a balk.
 
When runner(s) are on base and the pitcher places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball, he has committed a balk.
Thank you... so it is FIVE FEET. I've heard "on the dirt" and so many other interpretations. This makes it much clearer. Thank you!
 
Thank you... so it is FIVE FEET. I've heard "on the dirt" and so many other interpretations. This makes it much clearer. Thank you!
This is one of those "depends on the rule code" plays......

- Official Baseball Rules prohibit the pitcher from taking a position on or astride the pitcher's plate without the ball
- NCAA Rules prohibit the pitcher from standing with either foot or both feet on any part of the dirt area (circle) of the mound during a hidden-ball play attempt
 
This play happened tonight in a varsity game.

Baserunner steals 2nd base. Catcher overthrows into CF. Baserunner runs to 3B as CF throws ball into the infield. Meanwhile, the 3B fake tags on the baserunner as he jogs into 3B. Obstruction, or no? (The baserunner was never attempting nor going to attempt to go home)

In the game, the umpire said the baserunner was (somehow) already at 3B when the third basemen did the fake tag, and the bsaerunner was awarded home, tying the game.
 
This play happened tonight in a varsity game.

Baserunner steals 2nd base. Catcher overthrows into CF. Baserunner runs to 3B as CF throws ball into the infield. Meanwhile, the 3B fake tags on the baserunner as he jogs into 3B. Obstruction, or no? (The baserunner was never attempting nor going to attempt to go home)

In the game, the umpire said the baserunner was (somehow) already at 3B when the third basemen did the fake tag, and the bsaerunner was awarded home, tying the game.
In HS, a fake tag is obstruction and also a warning to the team, in which the next offender would be ejected.

Also, obstruction is a minimum one base award, though as you noted, generally the fake tag happens before they reach the base so usually doesn’t lead to an advance. (Though I once had a play where batter hit a ball into RF corner and with ball still in deep RF he slid into second bc of fake tag, and I awarded him third)

It is possible if the umpire(s) judged he may have gone home and had a chance to score, and the fake tag prevented him from doing so, he would be awarded home, but obv that’s a “had to be there”
 
Had a fun one last night and I share this as a learning opp for those on this forum.

Remember that on an Infield Fly the Batter Runner is automatically out no matter what. All other runners can advance at their own risk.

That said, if the IFF is dropped, the force out on any other runners is automatically removed, the Batter Runner is still out and any other runner can advance as if it were an uncaught fly ball. So the runner from second last night who scored while the defense stood there freaking out still counts as a run, as does the runner from first who made it to third.
 
Had a fun one last night and I share this as a learning opp for those on this forum.

Remember that on an Infield Fly the Batter Runner is automatically out no matter what. All other runners can advance at their own risk.

That said, if the IFF is dropped, the force out on any other runners is automatically removed, the Batter Runner is still out and any other runner can advance as if it were an uncaught fly ball. So the runner from second last night who scored while the defense stood there freaking out still counts as a run, as does the runner from first who made it to third.
I bolded the sentence in red as a clarification for others not in tune with the rule.......

"no matter what" includes the infrequent situations where the umpire does not verbally or visually (by signal) declare the IFF Rule is in effect.

Lack of that announcement or signal is irrelevant to the rule.
 
Batter hits a pop fly in foul territory. Catcher and first baseman are tracking towards the opponents dugout. The players in the dugout yell “it’s out, it’s out” so both players back off thinking ball is over dugout and they don’t want to crash into fence and the ball lands in play (foul territory but not out of play). Could interference be called or is it just gamesmanship? Thanks as always.
 
Batter hits a pop fly in foul territory. Catcher and first baseman are tracking towards the opponents dugout. The players in the dugout yell “it’s out, it’s out” so both players back off thinking ball is over dugout and they don’t want to crash into fence and the ball lands in play (foul territory but not out of play). Could interference be called or is it just gamesmanship? Thanks as always.
Yes, INT can be callled. Any action, physical or verbal, that confuses, hinders, or impedes the defense can be INT. It’s not much different than a runner saying “I got it I got it” to a fielder
 
Runner on 2nd with 2 outs. Batter hits a pop up on the infield. Pitcher catches the ball and immediately drops the ball and runs off the field (showboating). Homeplate ump clearly signals out. Batter doesn't make it to first and runs to the dugout. Runner from second touches third but then runs to the dugout. Coach tells the batter to go back to first and tells the runner to stand on home plate while he argues with the umpire. After a long delay, ump reverses the call and says the pitcher did not catch the ball, but then calls the runner out because he ran off the field. Inning over. Is there any relief for the runners since they ran off the field because the umpire signaled that it was the 3rd out?
 
Runner on 2nd with 2 outs. Batter hits a pop up on the infield. Pitcher catches the ball and immediately drops the ball and runs off the field (showboating). Homeplate ump clearly signals out. Batter doesn't make it to first and runs to the dugout. Runner from second touches third but then runs to the dugout. Coach tells the batter to go back to first and tells the runner to stand on home plate while he argues with the umpire. After a long delay, ump reverses the call and says the pitcher did not catch the ball, but then calls the runner out because he ran off the field. Inning over. Is there any relief for the runners since they ran off the field because the umpire signaled that it was the 3rd out?
This is a cluster, and the umpire should have not reversed their call here.

but to your question, an umpire is allowed to, and should, nullify any disadvantage created by their improper (and now overturned) ruling.

ie, what would have happened if he had ruled correctly here? Think we can agree r2 woukdnt have left the field, so I’d put him on third. Where it gets hairy is with the batter, if umpire immediately called no catch, would P still have had a chance to throw out batter? They are at disadvantage here too.

easy answer here, “coach; in my judgment he (pitcher) had voluntary release of the baseball to drop the ball on mound and run to his dugout”. Solves all problems.

If his PARTNER (not coach) was sought and said “definitely no catch”, then you’ve got to figure out where people would end up, but I’m hairier on HS rule for this, ncaa and OBR do not allow an overturn call of catch within the infield for this very reason, bc how do you know they wouldn’t have still thrown out batter?
 
This is a cluster, and the umpire should have not reversed their call here.

but to your question, an umpire is allowed to, and should, nullify any disadvantage created by their improper (and now overturned) ruling.

ie, what would have happened if he had ruled correctly here? Think we can agree r2 woukdnt have left the field, so I’d put him on third. Where it gets hairy is with the batter, if umpire immediately called no catch, would P still have had a chance to throw out batter? They are at disadvantage here too.

easy answer here, “coach; in my judgment he (pitcher) had voluntary release of the baseball to drop the ball on mound and run to his dugout”. Solves all problems.

If his PARTNER (not coach) was sought and said “definitely no catch”, then you’ve got to figure out where people would end up, but I’m hairier on HS rule for this, ncaa and OBR do not allow an overturn call of catch within the infield for this very reason, bc how do you know they wouldn’t have still thrown out batter?
True, if he ruled correctly than R2 definitely would not have moved.

NFHS does not have the formal language NCAA and OBR do for getting the call right, however the good Coach is correct to remove the disadvantage. Best case is to get the call right and place runners. You should ideally be making a call to nullify an error when working to get it right.

I would personally need/want to see the play in question to determine if the action of a catch was completed.
 
At a game last week, saw a balk called on the pitcher on a pick play at 2nd. I was a ways away and didn’t see it closely or hear the explanation l. I talked to the pitcher after the game and asked why he got called for a ball. Short story is the umpire told him he had too many steps in his move to 2nd. It looked to me like a classic reverse spin pick off. I then was able to watch the video of the move and still couldn’t see a balk. I have not heard of a balk being called for “too many steps”. Is this a thing?
 
At a game last week, saw a balk called on the pitcher on a pick play at 2nd. I was a ways away and didn’t see it closely or hear the explanation l. I talked to the pitcher after the game and asked why he got called for a ball. Short story is the umpire told him he had too many steps in his move to 2nd. It looked to me like a classic reverse spin pick off. I then was able to watch the video of the move and still couldn’t see a balk. I have not heard of a balk being called for “too many steps”. Is this a thing?
Post the video? Tough to give much of an explanation without one, I’ve seen some wonky stuff out on the mound.

But working with your information, There is no rule book language “too many steps” but there is clear language about what a pitcher must do or can not do. A pitcher must step towards second or disengage, but you said spin move, so I’m picturing the classic jump turn. If they disengaged, the number of steps is irrelevant. If they didn’t, they must step to second base. If the pitcher “pitter pattered their feet” in order to gain that distance to second, that would be a balk.

if they flinched their knees/feet in a movement first, then spun, that’s a balk, but I’m pulling at invisible strings without seeing the actual play.

But the moral of the story is, IF that’s what the umpire said (second hand info there), they would be better served to use rule book language. I can’t recall what it was, but I saw a funky move once I’d never seen and replayed it in my mind so many times trying to figure out if it was a balk, I didn’t end up calling it bc it was too long a pause, my partner did same. When we discussed it, I said “it looked weird but if questioned, I could not use rule book language to explain anything they did to constitute a balk”.
 
Post the video? Tough to give much of an explanation without one, I’ve seen some wonky stuff out on the mound.

But working with your information, There is no rule book language “too many steps” but there is clear language about what a pitcher must do or can not do. A pitcher must step towards second or disengage, but you said spin move, so I’m picturing the classic jump turn. If they disengaged, the number of steps is irrelevant. If they didn’t, they must step to second base. If the pitcher “pitter pattered their feet” in order to gain that distance to second, that would be a balk.

if they flinched their knees/feet in a movement first, then spun, that’s a balk, but I’m pulling at invisible strings without seeing the actual play.

But the moral of the story is, IF that’s what the umpire said (second hand info there), they would be better served to use rule book language. I can’t recall what it was, but I saw a funky move once I’d never seen and replayed it in my mind so many times trying to figure out if it was a balk, I didn’t end up calling it bc it was too long a pause, my partner did same. When we discussed it, I said “it looked weird but if questioned, I could not use rule book language to explain anything they did to constitute a balk”.
My guess is this was a feint to second (spin without throwing) followed by a step(s) to second before the throw....

I can envision "you needed to throw on the first step" being understood as "you took too many steps" by the pitcher.
 
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