Ask The Ump?

CoachHoversten

Active member
Another question (told you I had more):

I learned that a fake tag and verbal obstruction (i use this term loosely since if what I read is correct, it isn't actually obstruction) are legal in OBR and NCAA rules, but illegal in NFHS.

First, is this true? So a runner is coming for second and fielder acts as if they are catching and applying a tag in an NCAA game, that is legal? If a defenseman uses some verbal "trick" to deceive a runner, that is legal? Does this then apply to interference too? Can a runner say "I got it, I got it" to confuse a fielder? I know all of this is illegal in HS, but I was watching a case play about a Javy Baez fake tag on "closecallsports" and it talked about the difference between NCAA and OBR and NFHS on these kind of plays.

Last question...if it is legal in NCAA, is that noted by its absence in the rulebook? Meaning, I feel a big hurdle for a new college umpire is not making a call based on HS rules that is legal in NCAA because you've been calling that for years and years.

So if a fake tag is legal in NCAA, is there somewhere that would note this in the rule book? Or is it legal because it simply is not written as illegal?

Hope this makes sense...
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Another question (told you I had more):

I learned that a fake tag and verbal obstruction (i use this term loosely since if what I read is correct, it isn't actually obstruction) are legal in OBR and NCAA rules, but illegal in NFHS.

First, is this true?
Yes
So a runner is coming for second and fielder acts as if they are catching and applying a tag in an NCAA game, that is legal?
Legal in NCAA and OBR
Illegal in NFHS

If a defenseman uses some verbal "trick" to deceive a runner, that is legal?
Yes

Does this then apply to interference too? Can a runner say "I got it, I got it" to confuse a fielder?
No. (Interference vs Obstruction)
NCAA Rule 5-3
No offensive team members, either in or out of the lineup, shall physically or verbally hinder, confuse or impede any defensive player who is attempting to make a play

I know all of this is illegal in HS, but I was watching a case play about a Javy Baez fake tag on "closecallsports" and it talked about the difference between NCAA and OBR and NFHS on these kind of plays.
Ah yes, the Baez/Gamel play....

Classic example of nothing under NCAA/OBR rules and Obstruction under NFHS Rules.

Last question...if it is legal in NCAA, is that noted by its absence in the rulebook? Meaning, I feel a big hurdle for a new college umpire is not making a call based on HS rules that is legal in NCAA because you've been calling that for years and years.

So if a fake tag is legal in NCAA, is there somewhere that would note this in the rule book? Or is it legal because it simply is not written as illegal?

Hope this all makes sense.....
Makes perfect sense.

Simply stated, if it's not specified as illegal, it's legal.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Another one from my dinner scenarios...

Runner on 1st, batter swings and is interfered with by the catcher (hits his glove), but still gets a base hit to right field. R1 rounds second, but missed second base, and tries to stop and get back to 2nd base.

Two questions...

1) If the right fielder throws to the shortstop covering 2nd base, does R1 have to be tagged because of last-time-by, or because he missed second, is the force still applicable? I said no tag bc whether it’s a force or missed base, either way the runner can be put out by fielder touching base with ball, but want to verify I’m correct.

2) Is the runner protected back into 2nd base because of the catchers interference (meaning offensive coach can elect the penalty, putting batter on 1st and R1 on 2nd), or is he liable to be put out even though he missed the bag because he passed the bag on his way to 3rd. Guess the question is does missing the base constitute “the batter and all runners advanced one base, thus catchers interference is nullified”
 
Last edited:

AllSports12

Moderator
Another one from my dinner scenarios...

Runner on 1st, batter swings and is interfered with by the catcher (hits his glove), but still gets a base hit to right field. R1 rounds second, but missed second base, and tries to stop and get back to 2nd base.

Two questions...

1) If the right fielder throws to the shortstop covering 2nd base, does R1 have to be tagged because of last-time-by, or because he missed second, is the force still applicable? I said no tag bc whether it’s a force or missed base, either way the runner can be put out by fielder touching base with ball, but want to verify I’m correct.

2) Is the runner protected back into 2nd base because of the catchers interference (meaning offensive coach can elect the penalty, putting batter on 1st and R1 on 2nd), or is he liable to be put out even though he missed the bag because he passed the bag on his way to 3rd. Guess the question is does missing the base constitute “the batter and all runners advanced one base, thus catchers interference is nullified”
1) Correct

2) If the batter runner and all other runners advance at least one base, the action by the catcher is ignored. (NCAA)
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Umpire Mechanics Questions (all related to NCAA):

1) Three-Umpire System. R3 only. Less than 2 outs.

--- I know HPU always stays home for plays at the plate, can help U1 with pulled-foot/swipe-tag, and will get R3 tag up if U1 goes out on a fly ball.

My question is what do U1 and U3 do on balls into the infield. The CCA manual only covers balls to the outfield. Specifically:
  • On a routine grounder, U1 obviously is "staying home" for plays at 1st, but U3 can't very well abandon R3 in case of a backthrow, or if he ends up in a rundown between 3rd and home. So who has plays at `2nd base on the B-R? I am assuming U1 would enter on an overthrow similar to how they would in a 2-umpire mechanic?
  • On a pop-up (let's assume it is in fair territory), should U1 come inside and pivot similar to a 2-umpire system? In case of a drop and the B-R attempting to go to 2nd? Again, on a pop up, R3 is staying at 3rd, or even if crazy and tagging, they are still there, so U3 can't rotate to 2nd.
** Is there ever a situation with less than 2 outs that U3 will head to 2nd when the ball stays in the infield?**

--- Same situation, but now with 2 outs. U3 will now rotate to 2nd similar to when nobody is on base if and when it is obvious the play is not going to be directed at R3?


2) Three-Umpire System: Nobody on Base

--- Normally on a hit, HPU rotates down to 3rd base and U1 would be at home should the B-R try for an in-the-park-HR

Situation:
A ball is tapped between the plate and mound. HPU moves out to watch for runner's lane interference, pulled foot, swipe tag, and also has the boundary lines on an out-of-play situation. Pitcher fields the ball and heaves it over F3's head, and the ball is threatening the boundary line in right field.

  • Does HPU still have the out-of-play responsibilities or does it shift to U1 since he/she is closer? If HPU has that still, I am assuming he can not rotate to 3rd and should communicate that to his partners? If U1 takes over the responsibility, does HPU then head to 3rd?

As always, thanks for your time.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Another few:

1) NCAA Rulebook 6-2-G: "If the umpire declares the batter, batter-runner, or a runner, out for offensive interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was legally attained AT THE TIME OF THE INTERFERENCE"

Question: While this is unlikely, what if the bases are loaded with nobody out, ground ball to F6 to tries to turn a double play (second and first). R1 commits interference. He is out, the batter-runner is out (most likely). I always thought runners returned? In the event that R3 crossed the plate prior to the interference, his run counts?


2) NCAA Rulebook 6-2-D2: "If the catcher is in the act of making a throw to retire a runner and the batter is in the batter's box and his normal follow-through UNINTENTIONALLY strikes the catchers or the ball while the catcher is in the act of throwing, "Time" shall be called and the runners return (UNLESS the catcher's initial throw directly retires a runner)

Question: What do you yell and when? If I yell time as the catcher is throwing, the runner may ease up or stop, and now he is put out on the initial throw because I made him hesitate or slow down? I thought to myself maybe it's a delayed dead ball, but 6-2 is for IMMEDIATE dead balls. I don't want to use the word "interference" because that would lead the coach to believe an out should be awarded. I guess I am just confused how it can be an immediate dead ball "UNLESS the throw retires the runner". Wouldn't that be a delayed dead ball then?
 
Last edited:

CoachHoversten

Active member
One more...

I am linking the video to the CBUA training video from 2018, but I am not sure it will work for just anyone or if you have to be a CBUA member. Anyways, the play is the first one of the video if you can watch it. If one can't, essentially with runners on base, the catcher blocks a pitch, whips his mask off, and reaches for the ball with the hand that the mask is in, and stops the balls movement with his mask.

Video Player (arbitersports.com)

That is a one-base award to the runners according to the narrator.

Which rule covers this? I don't recall seeing anything about the catcher stopping a pitched ball with equipment being a base award (and it is still a pitched ball correct? Since it has not been hit into play, nor been secured by the catcher?)
 

AllSports12

Moderator
My answers are noted in bold red.........


Umpire Mechanics Questions (all related to NCAA):

1) Three-Umpire System. R3 only. Less than 2 outs.

--- I know HPU always stays home for plays at the plate, can help U1 with pulled-foot/swipe-tag, and will get R3 tag up if U1 goes out on a fly ball.

My question is what do U1 and U3 do on balls into the infield. The CCA manual only covers balls to the outfield. Specifically:
  • On a routine grounder, U1 obviously is "staying home" for plays at 1st, but U3 can't very well abandon R3 in case of a backthrow, or if he ends up in a rundown between 3rd and home. So who has plays at `2nd base on the B-R? I am assuming U1 would enter on an overthrow similar to how they would in a 2-umpire mechanic?
  • On a pop-up (let's assume it is in fair territory), should U1 come inside and pivot similar to a 2-umpire system? In case of a drop and the B-R attempting to go to 2nd? Again, on a pop up, R3 is staying at 3rd, or even if crazy and tagging, they are still there, so U3 can't rotate to 2nd.
** Is there ever a situation with less than 2 outs that U3 will head to 2nd when the ball stays in the infield?**

U1 will come and to take care of the B-R? (he reverts to 2man mechanics, so to speak...)
U3 should not come in.


--- Same situation, but now with 2 outs. U3 will now rotate to 2nd similar to when nobody is on base if and when it is obvious the play is not going to be directed at R3?

Yes


2) Three-Umpire System: Nobody on Base

--- Normally on a hit, HPU rotates down to 3rd base and U1 would be at home should the B-R try for an in-the-park-HR

Situation:
A ball is tapped between the plate and mound. HPU moves out to watch for runner's lane interference, pulled foot, swipe tag, and also has the boundary lines on an out-of-play situation. Pitcher fields the ball and heaves it over F3's head, and the ball is threatening the boundary line in right field.

  • Does HPU still have the out-of-play responsibilities or does it shift to U1 since he/she is closer? If HPU has that still, I am assuming he can not rotate to 3rd and should communicate that to his partners? If U1 takes over the responsibility, does HPU then head to 3rd?
Depends on where the ball threatens the boundary. PU have this..... however, if there is a rotation, U1 would be responsible. If U1 should happen to "go out" to see the ball, then you revert to 2 man.


As always, thanks for your time.
 
Last edited:

AllSports12

Moderator
Another few:

1) NCAA Rulebook 6-2-G: "If the umpire declares the batter, batter-runner, or a runner, out for offensive interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was legally attained AT THE TIME OF THE INTERFERENCE"

Question: While this is unlikely, what if the bases are loaded with nobody out, ground ball to F6 to tries to turn a double play (second and first). R1 commits interference. He is out, the batter-runner is out (most likely). I always thought runners returned? In the event that R3 crossed the plate prior to the interference, his run counts?

In the very likely event R3 crosses the plate, his run will count.
If the interference is Force Play Slide Rule related, then all runners return and no run will score



2) NCAA Rulebook 6-2-D2: "If the catcher is in the act of making a throw to retire a runner and the batter is in the batter's box and his normal follow-through UNINTENTIONALLY strikes the catchers or the ball while the catcher is in the act of throwing, "Time" shall be called and the runners return (UNLESS the catcher's initial throw directly retires a runner)

Question: What do you yell and when? If I yell time as the catcher is throwing, the runner may ease up or stop, and now he is put out on the initial throw because I made him hesitate or slow down? I thought to myself maybe it's a delayed dead ball, but 6-2 is for IMMEDIATE dead balls. I don't want to use the word "interference" because that would lead the coach to believe an out should be awarded. I guess I am just confused how it can be an immediate dead ball "UNLESS the throw retires the runner". Wouldn't that be a delayed dead ball then?

Yes, and this is addressed specifically under 6-3b "Delayed Dead Ball - Runners Return or Advance" (look at "Penalties - 3"
 

AllSports12

Moderator
One more...

I am linking the video to the CBUA training video from 2018, but I am not sure it will work for just anyone or if you have to be a CBUA member. Anyways, the play is the first one of the video if you can watch it. If one can't, essentially with runners on base, the catcher blocks a pitch, whips his mask off, and reaches for the ball with the hand that the mask is in, and stops the balls movement with his mask.

Video Player (arbitersports.com)

That is a one-base award to the runners according to the narrator.

Which rule covers this? I don't recall seeing anything about the catcher stopping a pitched ball with equipment being a base award (and it is still a pitched ball correct? Since it has not been hit into play, nor been secured by the catcher?)
8-3g(3)
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Couple more (again, NCAA rules):

1) Rule 1 - Section 16 - Part D says that a batted or thrown ball that hits loose equipment on the field is in play and to be kept live. My question is if there are any exceptions to this? For example:

--- Coach or player is sitting on a bucket of balls right at the entrance to the dugout, a thrown ball gets past F5 or F2 and hits the bucket and stays in play. On deck batter's equipment is outside the on-deck circle and a live ball strikes his equipment, either preventing the ball from going out of play or making the play on the ball more difficult for a fielder.

Does loose equipment just refer to things like a gate that swung open, or the tarp cover sticking out? Or does it mean actual playing equipment that is laying out, so long as the equipment was not intentionally placed there to gain an advantage?


2) Friend of mine worked a D1 inter-squad last night and said he got asked two questions by a pitcher...pitcher asked if he had to come set with nobody on base and umpire said no (which is true) but on the same page of the rule book, it says from the set starting position, a pitcher can not quick pitch. I referenced the definition of a quick pitch and it said an illegal pitch that is designed to catch the batter off balance.

So I guess I am wondering what distinguishes the two rulings? They must still come up to a set position but can "roll through it" when no one is on base? If you never do that and all of a sudden when its 3-2 you do, is that not a quick pitch designed to catch them off guard?

I have the same team intersquad tomorrow so I am guessing I will be asked the same questions, so want to make sure I fully understand it.

If I had to answer right now, I would say that a pitcher must still come to a set position but is not required to pause long enough to be "discernible". You can not just start standing up (picturing a pitcher bending over to take the sign) and before you get up, just drive forward and pitch.

Thanks as always for your time.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Couple more (again, NCAA rules):

1) Rule 1 - Section 16 - Part D says that a batted or thrown ball that hits loose equipment on the field is in play and to be kept live. My question is if there are any exceptions to this? For example:

--- Coach or player is sitting on a bucket of balls right at the entrance to the dugout, a thrown ball gets past F5 or F2 and hits the bucket and stays in play. On deck batter's equipment is outside the on-deck circle and a live ball strikes his equipment, either preventing the ball from going out of play or making the play on the ball more difficult for a fielder.

Does loose equipment just refer to things like a gate that swung open, or the tarp cover sticking out? Or does it mean actual playing equipment that is laying out, so long as the equipment was not intentionally placed there to gain an advantage?


2) Friend of mine worked a D1 inter-squad last night and said he got asked two questions by a pitcher...pitcher asked if he had to come set with nobody on base and umpire said no (which is true) but on the same page of the rule book, it says from the set starting position, a pitcher can not quick pitch. I referenced the definition of a quick pitch and it said an illegal pitch that is designed to catch the batter off balance.

So I guess I am wondering what distinguishes the two rulings? They must still come up to a set position but can "roll through it" when no one is on base? If you never do that and all of a sudden when its 3-2 you do, is that not a quick pitch designed to catch them off guard?

I have the same team intersquad tomorrow so I am guessing I will be asked the same questions, so want to make sure I fully understand it.

If I had to answer right now, I would say that a pitcher must still come to a set position but is not required to pause long enough to be "discernible". You can not just start standing up (picturing a pitcher bending over to take the sign) and before you get up, just drive forward and pitch.

Thanks as always for your time.
-- With regards to #1

The gate or tarp issue would be covered under ground rules. Loose equipment is balls, bats, pine tar rags, donuts, helmets.... etc.

A coach sitting on a bucket in play (which should never happen) can be covered under

Dead Ball - Play Suspended

6-5 -- Time shall be called by the umpire and play is suspended when:

c) An unusual circumstance interferes with the normal progress of the game, such as any crowd action, animal, ball, or other object on the field (see 6-4-a PENALTY);

PENALTY—The ball is dead at the moment of interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as to nullify the act of interference;




-- Addressing #2

A quick pitch is an illegal pitch..... The penalty is a balk with runners on base, or a ball with no runners on.

The failure to stop from the set position is not an example of a quick pitch. (the rule specifically notes that it is permissible to not come to a discernable stop with no runners on). A quick pitch is the pitcher receiving the ball, and throwing it again quickly in a way not intended by rule....

You'll know a quick pitch when you see it. ;)
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Bases loaded, 0 or 1 outs.

batter hits a routine pop up in foul territory near third base.

R3 is off the bag and contacts F5 who is moving to make the catch.

ball drops foul just before F5 can get there (ie contact prevented the catch)

You getting R3 and batter or just R3?
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
And the other issue is that when interference occurs, if a double play is possible, you can get two outs. The catch was likely and R3 is off the base, so is liable to be put out after the catch (not saying he wouldn't get back, but it is a possibility)...heck, even if R1 strayed way off first and possible to double him off, then you've got batter and runner closest to home (R3 anyways in this instance).
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Bases loaded, 0 or 1 outs.

batter hits a routine pop up in foul territory near third base.

R3 is off the bag and contacts F5 who is moving to make the catch.

ball drops foul just before F5 can get there (ie contact prevented the catch)

You getting R3 and batter or just R3?
R3 only, if less than 2 strikes add a strike to the count.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
And the other issue is that when interference occurs, if a double play is possible, you can get two outs. The catch was likely and R3 is off the base, so is liable to be put out after the catch (not saying he wouldn't get back, but it is a possibility)...heck, even if R1 strayed way off first and possible to double him off, then you've got batter and runner closest to home (R3 anyways in this instance).
That double play possibility needs to be obvious to everyone, even those not in attendance. ;)
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
That double play possibility needs to be obvious to everyone, even those not in attendance. ;)
Haha, I get it. I was just saying it isn't always as cut and dry.

That said, I have one more, and I went back and forth with two NCAA umpires because it appears there is a loophole that all of us are stuck in.

Situation: R1 and R3, 0 outs, no count on the batter. On the first pitch, R1 attempts to steal second base, R3 is not running on the pitch, but runs once the catch pops up and throws to 2nd. In the meantime, the batter has swung through the pitch and steps over the plate, interfering with the catcher. HOWEVER, the catcher's throw gets R1 out and R3 crosses the plate on the throwdown. What is the ruling?

The problem we went around and around about:
  • Normally the batter is out, and all runners return, so you might think, B-R is out, R1 and R3 return
  • But there is an exception (7-11-f-exception 2) that says the batter is not out if ANY runner attempting to advance is put out, which happened here. Okay, so batter stays up to bat, R1 is out, but what happens to R3? Just safe at home?
  • But hold on, 7-11-f-exception 1 says, "if THE runner is advancing to home and there are fewer than two outs, the runner, instead of the batter is out". So this sounds like R3 is out, batter stays, R1 returns.

One guy said play stands, R1 is out, R3 scores, batter has 0-1 count.

The other (more experienced) said R3 is out, R1 returns, batter has 0 - 1 count but his reasoning was that R3 was stealing home, and when I said, "no, I am asking when R3 comes AFTER the pitch, when catcher is throwing", and he said, "oh, well then the batter is out, and runners return"

But that would nullify the exception where batter isn't out because R1 was thrown out.

So what the heck is the ruling? Haha
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Haha, I get it. I was just saying it isn't always as cut and dry.

That said, I have one more, and I went back and forth with two NCAA umpires because it appears there is a loophole that all of us are stuck in.

Situation: R1 and R3, 0 outs, no count on the batter. On the first pitch, R1 attempts to steal second base, R3 is not running on the pitch, but runs once the catch pops up and throws to 2nd. In the meantime, the batter has swung through the pitch and steps over the plate, interfering with the catcher. HOWEVER, the catcher's throw gets R1 out and R3 crosses the plate on the throwdown. What is the ruling?

The problem we went around and around about:
  • Normally the batter is out, and all runners return, so you might think, B-R is out, R1 and R3 return
  • But there is an exception (7-11-f-exception 2) that says the batter is not out if ANY runner attempting to advance is put out, which happened here. Okay, so batter stays up to bat, R1 is out, but what happens to R3? Just safe at home?
  • But hold on, 7-11-f-exception 1 says, "if THE runner is advancing to home and there are fewer than two outs, the runner, instead of the batter is out". So this sounds like R3 is out, batter stays, R1 returns.

One guy said play stands, R1 is out, R3 scores, batter has 0-1 count.

The other (more experienced) said R3 is out, R1 returns, batter has 0 - 1 count but his reasoning was that R3 was stealing home, and when I said, "no, I am asking when R3 comes AFTER the pitch, when catcher is throwing", and he said, "oh, well then the batter is out, and runners return"

But that would nullify the exception where batter isn't out because R1 was thrown out.

So what the heck is the ruling? Haha
The runner is out and the run scores.

The exception you refer to is when the play is being made on the runner trying to score, not on a runner trying to advance from 1st to 2nd.
 

umpire16

New member
Hey CoachHoversten and AllSports12 -

If any if you know of umpires (especially new) who are interested, I have an OHSAA XXL short sleeve shirt ($15) and a size 40 patent leather belt ($10) for sale. PM if interested, I am willing to pay shipping within reason.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Hey CoachHoversten and AllSports12 -

If any if you know of umpires (especially new) who are interested, I have an OHSAA XXL short sleeve shirt ($15) and a size 40 patent leather belt ($10) for sale. PM if interested, I am willing to pay shipping within reason.
I'll poke around

New umpire classes are a good spot to sell items to.
 
.
Top