Ask The Ump?

[CoachHoversten]

@AllSports...

When you have time, can you comment on the 2 things I brought up?

1) Would the runner have been out if the exact same thing happened but the P was not in possession of the ball? Ie, if P is waiting for ball to be thrown and is obstructing the path back to the bag, and said runner takes full steps and explodes through his chest (as described). Ie, if deemed malicious, he automatically is thrown out of the game, but does a substitute runner take his place at ____ base due to obstruction, or is he out b/c malicious supercedes obstruction?

2) 1B covering bag situation described

 

[AllSports12]

At the HS level, I have seen 1B do that same thing in blocking much of the base. I brought it up to one umpire once, whom supposedly knows the rules as he teaches the umpiring classes in the area. He asked me "is the WHOLE bag blocked? If not, then it is OK"

I don't accept that answer.

The umpire is correct.

The rule in question (2-22-3) was changed in 2008. Below is the Official Interpretation published that year to support the umpire's claim and judgment... (the bolded, colored, and/or italicized words are my emphasis)

SITUATION 13: Without the ball in possession, the catcher sets up in the base path, but does allow access to part of home plate. As the ball and the runner converge at home simultaneously, the runner contacts the catcher.

RULING: As long as the umpire judges that the catcher provided access to the plate for the runner, this is not obstruction. With the play in motion and the timing such that it is about to occur, a fielder may be in the base path without the ball, provided he allows the runner access to the base or home plate. (2-22-3)

The rule requires the defense to give the runner access to the base. Not 100% access and not necessarily the preferred access.

Like most of our other duties out there..... it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[AllSports12]

@AllSports...

When you have time, can you comment on the 2 things I brought up?

1) Would the runner have been out if the exact same thing happened but the P was not in possession of the ball? Ie, if P is waiting for ball to be thrown and is obstructing the path back to the bag, and said runner takes full steps and explodes through his chest (as described). Ie, if deemed malicious, he automatically is thrown out of the game, but does a substitute runner take his place at ____ base due to obstruction, or is he out b/c malicious supercedes obstruction?

2) 1B covering bag situation described

In (1), the ball is dead immediately and the runner is declared out and ejected from the game. Malicious contact always supersedes obstruction..

As far as (2). Is concerned ... it’s on the umpire to decide if there is any access to the base. I’ve seen plenty of situations that you describe..... some are obstruction and some aren’t

Remember, the preferred access isn’t guaranteed to the runner.

 

[CedarBuck92]

2 outs. Runner on second. Base umpire is behind pitchers mound. Ball is hit to left field. Batter/runner misses first on his way to second. Runner from second scores. Defensive team appeals and both umpires say they were watching the ball and did not see anything.

I have 2 questions. 1. On a play like this which umpire should have been watching the runner(s)? 2. If the appeal was successful and the Batter/runner ruled out does the run come off the board?

 

[AllSports12]

2 outs. Runner on second. Base umpire is behind pitchers mound. Ball is hit to left field. Batter/runner misses first on his way to second. Runner from second scores. Defensive team appeals and both umpires say they were watching the ball and did not see anything.

I have 2 questions. 1. On a play like this which umpire should have been watching the runner(s)? 2. If the appeal was successful and the Batter/runner ruled out does the run come off the board?

Assuming the batted ball was a clean hit, the Plate Umpire has the touch at 3rd Base and the Base Umpire has the touch at 1st Base. If there was going to be a ruling required for a catch or no catch, the responsibility for the touch at 1st Base could fall on the Plate Umpire as well....

If the appeal was proper an successful on the Batter-Runner missing 1st Base, then by rule no run would be scored as the third out was recorded on the Batter-Runner before he legally touched 1st Base.

 

[Thavoice]

Assuming the batted ball was a clean hit, the Plate Umpire has the touch at 3rd Base and the Base Umpire has the touch at 1st Base. If there was going to be a ruling required for a catch or no catch, the responsibility for the touch at 1st Base could fall on the Plate Umpire as well....

If the appeal was proper an successful on the Batter-Runner missing 1st Base, then by rule no run would be scored as the third out was recorded on the Batter-Runner before he legally touched 1st Base.

Somewhat similar question because I know we have gotten away with it a couple of times, inadvertently.

Runners at 1st and 2nd.

Fly ball to CF, right center or even RF deep enough for the runner on second to tag.

Who has the responsibility to make sure the runner on first also tags up?


A few times in my coaching career when this happened the guy on first, who went part way, ended up going to second on the throw to third to get the tagging runner without tagging up himself and it was never caught. The first time I blurted out, briefly, for the runner to get back but shut up quickly knowing it would alert an umpire/opposing coach.


Just curious who is to be looking at the catch, tagging runner from second and then also making sure the guy on first tagged as well in a two man umpiring squad.

 

[AllSports12]

Somewhat similar question because I know we have gotten away with it a couple of times, inadvertently.

Runners at 1st and 2nd.

Fly ball to CF, right center or even RF deep enough for the runner on second to tag.

Who has the responsibility to make sure the runner on first also tags up?


A few times in my coaching career when this happened the guy on first, who went part way, ended up going to second on the throw to third to get the tagging runner without tagging up himself and it was never caught. The first time I blurted out, briefly, for the runner to get back but shut up quickly knowing it would alert an umpire/opposing coach.


Just curious who is to be looking at the catch, tagging runner from second and then also making sure the guy on first tagged as well in a two man umpiring squad.

These are some of the holes of 2-man games.... There simply aren't enough eves to cover all the action, so we prioritize and fill in where we can...

In this situation, the Plate Umpire has the tag at 2nd Base (as he does for all fly balls to the outfield). The Base Umpire will have catch/no-catch followed by a quick look towards 1st Base. The Plate Umpire can help on this as well and if a subsequent appeal is made on that runner at 1st, the umpires will communicate prior to the ruling as to who has this covered.

It's imperfect, but it's the best two umpires can muster.

 

[Thavoice]

Thanks.

The thing that happens though, it was 3-4 times in a 10 year coaching span, is that the runner on first would be heading back to first base to tag, but when the throw was coming in to third he would break to second base without getting all the way back.

By this time, the play is being actioned and the last view of the umpire of the runner on first was him going back to the bag before he starts to pay attention to the tagging runner from second and going to third.

 

[thePITman]

I've been looking but cannot find these... Where are the rules in the NFHS Baseball Rules Book for the following:

1. What position(s) a player can wear a first baseman's mitt

Rule 1, Section3 , Article 6 seems to suggest a first baseman's mitt may be worn at any position.

2. The coach must replace the pitcher if visiting the mound X number of times in the same inning

Rule 3, Section 4, Article 1 seems to suggest a team gets 3 conferences in a 7-inning game without having to remove the pitcher (regardless of whether or not they were in the same inning). A fourth visit (and all subsequent visits in the 7 innings) would require changing of pitcher. However, in extra innings, only one conference is allowed per inning, and each subsequent conference in that inning must result in a pitching change.

Am I reading those correctly?

If both are correct (which is how I understood them), I was penalized inappropriately last weekend at a tournament in Alliance/Akron. They had college umpires but we were playing by high school rules.

 

[Thavoice]

I've been looking but cannot find these... Where are the rules in the NFHS Baseball Rules Book for the following:

1. What position(s) a player can wear a first baseman's mitt
2. The coach must replace the pitcher if visiting the mound X number of times in the same inning

Assuming you haven't gone out there already, you can go out twice in the same inning, but the third time you would have to take him out.

Most think it is the second trip, but it is not, unless things changed in the last few years.
3 charged visits....


http://stevetheump.com/rules/2015_NFHS_rules.pdf

Article 6 I think gives glove dimensions.

 

[AllSports12]

I've been looking but cannot find these... Where are the rules in the NFHS Baseball Rules Book for the following:

1. What position(s) a player can wear a first baseman's mitt

Rule 1, Section3 , Article 6 seems to suggest a first baseman's mitt may be worn at any position.

2. The coach must replace the pitcher if visiting the mound X number of times in the same inning

Rule 3, Section 4, Article 1 seems to suggest a team gets 3 conferences in a 7-inning game without having to remove the pitcher (regardless of whether or not they were in the same inning). A fourth visit (and all subsequent visits in the 7 innings) would require changing of pitcher. However, in extra innings, only one conference is allowed per inning, and each subsequent conference in that inning must result in a pitching change.

Am I reading those correctly?

If both are correct (which is how I understood them), I was penalized inappropriately last weekend at a tournament in Alliance/Akron. They had college umpires but we were playing by high school rules.

Glove restrictions are noted under Rule 1-3-6. Please note that any player in any position may wear any glove so long as it is legal. If you want to have all 9 players use a "first baseman's mitt", you are permitted by rule.

The defensive team has 3 charged conferences allotted to them in a 7 inning contest. Those charged conferences can be taken during the same at-bat if desired without replacing the pitcher. Once we get to extra innings, the pitcher must be removed (and he's done pitching for the remainder of the game...but can still participate while in another defensive position) on the second charged conference of the inning. (Rule 3-4-1) ..... Please note, if the offense initiates a charged conference (they get one per inning), then the defense may use that time to confer as well without penalty.

 

[Thavoice]

Glove restrictions are noted under Rule 1-3-6. Please note that any player in any position may wear any glove so long as it is legal. If you want to have all 9 players use a "first baseman's mitt", you are permitted by rule.

The defensive team has 3 charged conferences allotted to them in a 7 inning contest. Those charged conferences can be taken during the same at-bat if desired without replacing the pitcher. Once we get to extra innings, the pitcher must be removed (and he's done pitching for the remainder of the game...but can still participate while in another defensive position) on the second charged conference of the inning. (Rule 3-4-1) ..... Please note, if the offense initiates a charged conference (they get one per inning), then the defense may use that time to confer as well without penalty.

Also, I realize you know this but it confuses others, to add if you don't mind Mr. Allsports12, when you take out the pitcher that isn't considered a chargeable conference.

So if you go out once, then go to take him out the next time you take him out you still only have one chargeable conference.

 

[AllSports12]

Also, I realize you know this but it confuses others, to add if you don't mind Mr. Allsports12, when you take out the pitcher that isn't considered a chargeable conference.

So if you go out once, then go to take him out the next time you take him out you still only have one chargeable conference.

Correct

The last line of the definition of a charged conference is..... "a conference is not charged if the pitcher is removed as pitcher."

This is why we use the term "charged conference" instead of "mound visit".

 

[Thavoice]

Correct

The last line of the definition of a charged conference is..... "a conference is not charged if the pitcher is removed as pitcher."

This is why we use the term "charged conference" instead of "mound visit".

I understand you know the term, but many people look at this thread (overheard someone a few weeks ago at a game referencing it) and to some they may not know the difference.

Great resources you provide.

 

[CoachHoversten]

So glad I take the time to respond and get my posts deleted.

 

[AllSports12]

So glad I take the time to respond and get my posts deleted. This is ask the ump, it doesn't say "ask AllSports".

I sent you a PM about the posts. Take the discussion there

 

[AllSports12]

I understand you know the term, but many people look at this thread (overheard someone a few weeks ago at a game referencing it) and to some they may not know the difference.

Great resources you provide.

I try not to get too involved in some explanations because it opens the door to further questions that tend to stray from the original topic. It's tougher to answer some of these questions via social media instead of face to face. .(just like any communication is better when it is face to face.)

Sometimes that approach leaves holes in the answer. Keep pointing those holes out when we miss them and we'll try to plug them.

Thanks !

 

[firewatch]

If a runner coming down 3rd baseline removes his helmet before crossing home plate to celebrate should he be called out?

 

[AllSports12]

If a runner coming down 3rd baseline removes his helmet before crossing home plate to celebrate should he be called out?

The penalty for intentionally removing your helmet is never an out.

If the player intentionally removes his helmet during a dead ball there is no penalty as this is perfectly legal.

If the player intentionally removes his helmet during a live ball a team warning is issued after the play ends and any subsequent player that removes his helmet during a live ball is ejected.

 

[firewatch]

The penalty for intentionally removing your helmet is never an out.

If the player intentionally removes his helmet during a dead ball there is no penalty as this is perfectly legal.

If the player intentionally removes his helmet during a live ball a team warning is issued after the play ends and any subsequent player that removes his helmet during a live ball is ejected.

Thank you

 

[Thavoice]

The penalty for intentionally removing your helmet is never an out.

If the player intentionally removes his helmet during a dead ball there is no penalty as this is perfectly legal.

If the player intentionally removes his helmet during a live ball a team warning is issued after the play ends and any subsequent player that removes his helmet during a live ball is ejected.

Question.
PLAYER A takes helmet off, umpire issues a team warning.
PLAYER B takes his helmet of, gets ejected. Does someone replace him on the basepath if he was on base? OR, do you just lose him, where he is at on the bases, but not an OUT?

 

[AllSports12]

Player B is ejected and his replacement will assume his position on the base paths and batting order.

 

[Thavoice]

Are players required to 'stay' in the dugout for the most part?

Reason I ask is this, a player this weekend when his team was at bat would go behind the backstop to right behind the umpire/batter.

He was the team's pitcher.

Not that I think anything improper was happening, but he did so and would block the view of everyone sitting right there. One guy ended up saying something to him and he moved over a few feet (only to block the view of other fans who also said something).

Curious of the rule, and as a fan what would you as an umpire recommend them to do? I thought notifying the coaches about it.

 

[AllSports12]

Are players required to 'stay' in the dugout for the most part?

Reason I ask is this, a player this weekend when his team was at bat would go behind the backstop to right behind the umpire/batter.

He was the team's pitcher.

Not that I think anything improper was happening, but he did so and would block the view of everyone sitting right there. One guy ended up saying something to him and he moved over a few feet (only to block the view of other fans who also said something).

Curious of the rule, and as a fan what would you as an umpire recommend them to do? I thought notifying the coaches about it.

Rule 3-1-1a

A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:
a. leave the dugout during a live ball for an unauthorized purpose;

PENALTY: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected.

Examples of leaving the dugout for an authorized reason are....

Heading to the bullpen to warm up
Heading into dead ball territory to loosen up
Heading to the rest room facilities

What you describe is not an authorized reason. If the umpires don't see what's happening, then I would suggest your coach advise the crew of what is going on so they can intervene......... If the field umpire detects the player he needs to get the head coach to get the player back. (we don't know why so some latitude should be given) If it happens again, the warning should be issued and whatever happens after that is elementary......

 

[CoachHoversten]

Rule 3-1-1a

A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:
a. leave the dugout during a live ball for an unauthorized purpose;

PENALTY: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected.

Examples of leaving the dugout for an authorized reason are....

Heading to the bullpen to warm up
Heading into dead ball territory to loosen up
Heading to the rest room facilities

What you describe is not an authorized reason. If the umpires don't see what's happening, then I would suggest your coach advise the crew of what is going on so they can intervene......... If the field umpire detects the player he needs to get the head coach to get the player back. (we don't know why so some latitude should be given) If it happens again, the warning should be issued and whatever happens after that is elementary......

Not to play monkey in the middle, but the rule you quoted says "LEAVE the dugout DURING live ball". It doesn't say be out of the dugout...so while not in a live ball situation, say between innings, can the kid go sit/stand behind the backstop and stay there until a subsequent dead ball?

I don't want to speculate, but from previous experience, there are only 2 reasons to stand behind the backstop, try and get a closer to "batters view" of the opposing pitcher (judging their curveball, speed, etc), or try to find a "tell" that indicates whether they are throwing fastball/curveball/changeup, etc.

I myself have never encountered the situation ThaVoice described, but I am imagining a coach who knows the rule book (haha, that is a funny one), who quotes "but he didnt LEAVE during a live ball". Does that make a difference?

 

[Thavoice]

Not to play monkey in the middle, but the rule you quoted says "LEAVE the dugout DURING live ball". It doesn't say be out of the dugout...so while not in a live ball situation, say between innings, can the kid go sit/stand behind the backstop and stay there until a subsequent dead ball?

I don't want to speculate, but from previous experience, there are only 2 reasons to stand behind the backstop, try and get a closer to "batters view" of the opposing pitcher (judging their curveball, speed, etc), or try to find a "tell" that indicates whether they are throwing fastball/curveball/changeup, etc.

I myself have never encountered the situation ThaVoice described, but I am imagining a coach who knows the rule book (haha, that is a funny one), who quotes "but he didnt LEAVE during a live ball". Does that make a difference?

You MUST be a lawyer with those hairs you are splitting!!!




Allsports, an umpiring mechanics question I have always wondered about and it came up this weekend:
*2 man crew (not to be confused with the group 2 Live Crew)
*Nobody on so the base umpire is down the line behind 1B.
*Line drive to right field. Sinking line drive. Base umpire takes off for the infield to the B position I believe
*Umpire behind the plate makes the call.


Why?

 

[CoachHoversten]

You MUST be a lawyer with those hairs you are splitting!!!




Allsports, an umpiring mechanics question I have always wondered about and it came up this weekend:
*2 man crew (not to be confused with the group 2 Live Crew)
*Nobody on so the base umpire is down the line behind 1B.
*Line drive to right field. Sinking line drive. Base umpire takes off for the infield to the B position I believe
*Umpire behind the plate makes the call.


Why?

This one I can answer...in a 2 man crew, with no one on base, it is the base umpire's judgment as to whether or not they "go out" on a fly ball/line drive.

The base umpire is to pause, read, react, and the home plate umpire responds accordingly. If the base umpire goes out, the home plate umpire takes all touches and calls on the bases, while the base umpire has fair/foul and catch/no-catch.

Without video of the play in question, there is no way to know whether or not the base umpire "should have" gone out or not.

But regardless, as soon as he decided to come in, the home plate umpire now has catch/no-catch and fair/foul.

As for "why", that is purely speculation now. By coming in, the base umpire likely deemed that it was not a "trouble ball".

To put it another way, that same ball hit to the left side of the field is the home plate umpire's call no matter what. So if they can handle that call, why is it an issue that they have to handle the same call on the right side?

Again, without video, we can't deem what should or should not have been done. What is important is, did the two umpires work together? (IE, the home plate umpire did his job BASED ON what the base umpire did). You mentioned a situation before where both umpires said they watched the ball....here, if HPU made the call, then the umpires did their job.

 

[Thavoice]

This one I can answer...in a 2 man crew, with no one on base, it is the base umpire's judgment as to whether or not they "go out" on a fly ball/line drive.

The base umpire is to pause, read, react, and the home plate umpire responds accordingly. If the base umpire goes out, the home plate umpire takes all touches and calls on the bases, while the base umpire has fair/foul and catch/no-catch.

Without video of the play in question, there is no way to know whether or not the base umpire "should have" gone out or not.

But regardless, as soon as he decided to come in, the home plate umpire now has catch/no-catch and fair/foul.

As for "why", that is purely speculation now. By coming in, the base umpire likely deemed that it was not a "trouble ball".

To put it another way, that same ball hit to the left side of the field is the home plate umpire's call no matter what. So if they can handle that call, why is it an issue that they have to handle the same call on the right side?

Again, without video, we can't deem what should or should not have been done. What is important is, did the two umpires work together? (IE, the home plate umpire did his job BASED ON what the base umpire did). You mentioned a situation before where both umpires said they watched the ball....here, if HPU made the call, then the umpires did their job.

Thanks. I just know from the years of coaching it happened often enough we always wondered, even at times it seemed questionable.


The play in question I am referencing then the base umpire made the wrong decision. It was a low, sinking line drive to very shallow RF and I THINK the HP made the right call but he was doing so from 120 ft or so and the base umpire would have been 30 -40 ft away on the diving catch.

 

[CoachHoversten]

Thanks. I just know from the years of coaching it happened often enough we always wondered, even at times it seemed questionable.


The play in question I am referencing then the base umpire made the wrong decision. It was a low, sinking line drive to very shallow RF and I THINK the HP made the right call but he was doing so from 120 ft or so and the base umpire would have been 30 -40 ft away on the diving catch.

In general, it is better that the base umpire err on the side of going out too often, rather than not enough. A common phrase among umpires is "can of corn" for lazy routine fly balls. If a ball is not a can of corn, in general, the base umpire should go out.

And I know AllSports doesn't like additional info being thrown in, but it really does depend on the umpire and crew.

I umpire high level tournaments with a guy in the Summer who is a college umpire, he told me before that he prefers I not go out unless it is really a trouble ball...as mentioned, he makes those same calls on left half of the field, so making it on the right is no different.

He also said a study showed that when HPU has the catch/no-catch, there is only 3 things that he must consider. Was it caught or not, was it fair or not, and possible catch-and-carry.

If the BU goes out, there are 67 different things that can potentially happen within the bases (obviously assuming the ball is not caught for an out).

He said it is a lot easier for him to consider 3 things than it is 67, so always come in unless it is really a difficult ball.

Just depends on the crew, maybe the HPU at your game in question has a similar philosophy and in pre-game told the BU something similar.

I don't know, but again, if they worked together and had all the calls covered, they did their job (rather than both watching batter or both watching the ball)

 

[AllSports12]

Not to play monkey in the middle, but the rule you quoted says "LEAVE the dugout DURING live ball". It doesn't say be out of the dugout...so while not in a live ball situation, say between innings, can the kid go sit/stand behind the backstop and stay there until a subsequent dead ball?

I don't want to speculate, but from previous experience, there are only 2 reasons to stand behind the backstop, try and get a closer to "batters view" of the opposing pitcher (judging their curveball, speed, etc), or try to find a "tell" that indicates whether they are throwing fastball/curveball/changeup, etc.

I myself have never encountered the situation ThaVoice described, but I am imagining a coach who knows the rule book (haha, that is a funny one), who quotes "but he didnt LEAVE during a live ball". Does that make a difference?

First off, I have encountered many, many coaches who know the rules. We don't mock coaches on here. Besides it being unprofessional based on you being an active umpire, I don't let posters mock umpires on here, so we aren't mocking posters, coaches, players or umpires. If you want to do that, create your own thread and do it there.

Next, there is a reason why we don't play "monkey in the middle" here. It strays from the original question (one that has already been properly answered) and usually ends up with someone trying to make something stick to the wall, that simply won't stick.... as is the case here.

Below are two official interpretations from the NFHS that are related to players or other team personnel being out of the dugout during a live ball. Please note that one situation the reason is justified and one is not. Nowhere does it mention when the personnel left the dugout.

SITUATION 1: The home team has an enclosed batting cage behind its dugout. During the game, batters will take batting practice before batting in the game. The visiting coach complains to the plate umpire and wants the plate umpire to either allow his team to hit before its at-bats, or not allow anyone to use the batting cage during the game.

RULING: The umpire has no jurisdiction over the use of equipment or facilities outside the confines of the field. This is a matter that must be settled between the coaches or their league. However, if batting practice is taken during the game and the sound of the metal bats becomes distracting, the umpire can prohibit further use of the batting cage. (10-2-3; Approved Ruling 1990)



SITUATION 7: An assistant coach in the uniform of his team, is sitting in the stands recording the game and using a radar gun on his pitcher.

RULING: While it is legal for a camera or radar gun to be placed in the stands, it may not be used by a coach, player, attendant or other bench personnel. The assistant coach must be in the dugout or a dead-ball area inside the confines of the field. (3-3-1i)


In the original scenario presented, the player had no business being where he was. Whether or not he left the dugout when the ball was live in this situation is irrelevant.

Nobody can argue that the player had a valid reason to be where he was. Leaving the dugout to get to where he was when the ball was dead does not make his actions legal.