Ask the Ref?
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AllSports12
Moderator
An off-ball defender is face-guarding an offensive player and resting his hand on his chest to keep track of where he is. 1) Is this ever called a foul? 2) Can the offensive player swat the defender’s hand away without being called for a foul? 3) Are players generally warned for either of these actions?
AllSports12
Moderator
When this happens, the officials should be on heightened awareness of what is going on. When they see one or both actions occurring, a stern "knock it off" should follow.
If either continue, then a foul should be called on the offender.
I only ask because I’ve never seen the slapping the hand off before, and it went on for four or five straight times. Is this different than contact in the post? Because you see guys making constant contact down there all the time.
AllSports12
Moderator
It's probably because it's off ball and not getting the attention it deserves.4
If players are slapping each other in the post....... that's a problem and should be handled
AllSports12
Moderator
GoEaglesCvc
Well-known member
I am sure that this has been asked. But, I was reviewing correctable errors and it leads me to a question. On occasion you see an official rule a ball out of bounds on a team by mistake. His partner comes over and then after talking, he changes the call. My confusion is that by rule this isn’t a correctable call. So, shouldn’t they have to stick with the call once it has been made.
AllSports12
Moderator
A correctable error starts with a rule inadvertently being set aside resulting in one of the five errors described in the rule book.
In your example, another official providing information to their partner that may convince that partner that their judgment was incorrect is an acceptable (albeit extremely rare) action in the game of basketball.
oxat622
Well-known member
A1 begins a drive from the trail official's primary coverage area to the lead's. B1 makes illegal contact on A1 followed by a collision between A1 and B2, who had established legal guarding position in paint. The trail and lead officials both blow their whistles and signal foul. Presuming they pregamed that in the event of a double whistle, defer to the primary coverage area official, the lead signals a player control foul. Can the trail overrule/correct the lead that B1 fouled A1 first, leading to the collision with B2? Or because the lead signalled his call, are they stuck with at best a double foul?
AllSports12
Moderator
This is not a double foul as the illegal contact by B1 against A1 causes the ball to become dead immediately.
Therefore, the contact between A1 and B2 should be ignored unless deemed intentional or flagrant. (if so, then A1's foul would be either an intentional technical foul or flagrant technical foul. Shoot FT's (if applicable) in the order of occurrence and B would have the ball at the division line for a designated spot throw-in)
The Trail should inform the Lead that the foul he/she called occurred prior to the one called by them.
oxat622
Well-known member
Imagine it's B1 with a hand check knocks A1 off his path and into B2 and it's a bang-bang play. I'm saying that because the lead signaled player control foul, is there backing to have the trail correct this so that the foul is applied only to B1.
Kind of like when one officials charge and the other signals block. By rule, this must be a double foul when in reality only one official got it right.
When A1 is shooting a free throw, where should all 3 officials be positioned? Game tonight had multiple players from each team at half court during the free throws with no officials watching them. All night there was no one on the free throw line to see if the shooter was stepping on or over the line. Just curious what the protocol is there. My biggest thing was leaving opponents alone during the free throws.
AllSports12
Moderator
You can't charge A1 with a foul here.
It's noted above..... B1's foul causes the ball to become dead immediately. There cannot be another common foul after this.
Actually it's not.
A double foul involves only two opponents committing fouls against each other at approximately the same time.
AllSports12
Moderator
The trail official should be aware of players that are at the division line or deeper..... however, they should not be back with them unless there are extenuating circumstances such as prior conflict between some or all of the players in that area.
oxat622
Well-known member
You are not answering/understanding the question. I am not saying this incident should be a double foul. The whistles occur simultaneously. One official has signaled a foul on A1 because the contact occurred in the lead's primary. The other official knows that B1's foul occurred first and is the reason there was even contact between A1 and B2. Because the lead has made the signal, by rule, can this be changed?
This is not a question of what should have happened. This is a question of what is allowed to happen.
AllSports12
Moderator
I answered this in post #1452.
Once B1 contacts A1 everything else that happens in your description is moot. This includes whistles and signals associated with the action that occurs after the original contact (foul). You cannot charge A1 with a foul against B2.
If I'm the T and you are the L on this, I, as the T am telling you "B1's foul created the foul you observed. The only foul we have have by rule is the one I have on B1”
CasualFan24
Well-known member
Would love for these officials to post and hold their calls, and get together on the call rather than just defer to one another to make a call. If the trail feels strongly enough that the original contact from B1 was enough to call and cause the contact on B2, then he/she should be assertive in communicating to the lead that they need to talk before any preliminary signals.
Takes a strong pregame and emphasis on posting and holding calls. They should have a very brief conference about this play on the court and if both officials posted and held their calls, the T should take the call. Unfortunately based on what you described, it sounds like the T went ahead and deferred to the L, and the L gave a preliminary player-control signal.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
winbypin
Well-known member
Can a player get a technical for dunking or attempting a dunk during the half-time shooting? I know pre-game is a no-no but what about at half-time?
This happened in a tournament game last week. Refs were just making their way to the court and the sound on the rim caused one ref to turn his head and see the kid still hanging on the rim. But no call was made.
This happened in a tournament game last week. Refs were just making their way to the court and the sound on the rim caused one ref to turn his head and see the kid still hanging on the rim. But no call was made.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
@winbypin - I stand corrected. Dunking during warm-ups, halftime, or deadball situations should all result in a techincal foul. That said, the official has to SEE it happen in order to call it.
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Thavoice
Well-known member
Legit question.
Recently cheerleading squad was warned by the officials to not say anything to them or they will receive a T, official warned the coach about it, who in turn then had an asst tell the cheer advisor to tell the cheerleaders to not say anything to the officials.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
Book says that teams are responsible for their players, coaches and fans. I'll let @AllSports12 speak to this more, but I guess by rule a technical could be assessed. TBH though, an official needs to use other resources to handle situations like this - talk to the cheer coach, talk to the administrator....a coach isn't giving 2 seconds of thought about cheerleaders when he's trying to win a game. Threatening the coach over something a cheerleader said is probably only going to lose you (as an official) respect with that coach, and really, everyone else.
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AllSports12
Moderator
Good grief......
While in extreme circumstances, say for example, a cheerleader interferes with a play by the opposing team, a technical foul can be assessed to a team. However, something like what you describe should result in nothing other than going to game management and saying "the cheerleaders are directing personal comments towards the officiating crew. Please see to it that their administrator is notifed that if it continues, we will ask you to remove them."
I've done it twice in my career and in both situations the problem was resolved immediately
The fact that a crew even pondered assessing a technical foul for this is mind boggling.
Rule 2-8-1 - Officials' Additional Duties
"The officials shall:
Penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute,team attendant or follower.
NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible forspectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control thespectators. The officials may rule fouls on either team if its supporters actin such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.Discretion must be used in ruling such fouls, however, lest a team beunjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere withthe orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until thehost management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in anorderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, thehome coach shall serve as the host management"
For the record and to answer your question, cheerleaders a considered team followers, not bench personnel. No coach shall be penalized directly or indirectly for their behavior.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Thank you.
As you may tell, I am very obersvent at games. I saw the officials talk to the cheerleaders, go to the coaches, an asst then go to the cheer coach and I inquired with someone in the know and that indeed was the case.
Personally, I think it was a case of the official getting rabbit ears but that is a diff discussion for another day!
AllSports12
Moderator
If a cheerleader is complaining about officiating, it isn't rabbit ears...... They have a special exemption to be outside of the bleachers to do their thing and 99.999999999% of them do a great job at it. They put in long hours practicing and performing at game.....
However, along with that exemption comes responsibility. They don't get to take free shots from 3 feet away.
oxat622
Well-known member
Okay, so you're saying that even though I've signaled the foul on A1, the rules do not disallow walking back that foul because you saw something different that occurred first, and by rule we go with what happened first. And the difference between that and a "blarge" is because two officials have different calls/judgments on the same action.
AllSports12
Moderator
I'll explain this one last time.....
Once B1 fouls A1 the ball becomes dead. By rule nothing else that happens after that matters. That includes whistles and signals.
A1 cannot be charged with a foul against B2 because....
- the ball became dead once B1 fouled him
- the contact between A1 and B2 was caused by B1
- the contact was not intentional or flagrant
The "blarge" reference you make does not apply here because even if the fouls occurred at the same time, this is not a double foul, instead it is a simultaneous foul (Rule 4-19-8 vs 4-19-10).