2020-21 OHSAA State Duals

SCC

Member
Clubs are already having practice and camps, some states are having national events! Fort Wayne, IN has a 750 plus kid tournament next week. Venues are hurting for money, it can be done. Take your mask off and take a breath! OAC can take over and leave ohsaa in the dust! RIP ohsaa wrestling. Time to move on from the political pandemic. 6% of the covid 19 death toll was actually from covid 19. That is way less than the common flu. My sone has been practicing since April. Good luck to the Under Ground Wrestling Club next weekend!
Good size one in State College yesterday. They claimed 17 states represented.

People could have done a better job with masks, if that matters.

But the weather was good, plenty of fresh air and sunshine.
 

olivia jo

Active member
2020 finances have not come out yet for team/individual wrestling, or at least aren't on the OHSAA site.

2019 (First year of super regionals) - team wrestling had an across the board net loss of 60K, the overall individual tournament had a net gain of 155K
2018 - team lost 10K, individual gained 148K
2017 - team lost 38K, individual gained 182K
2016 - team lost 29K, individual gained 182K
2015 - team lost 53K, individual gained 170K
Wow
 

Crossface86

New member
Bucksman - do you know what the biggest cost is for the Team Tournament? Or, do you have an educated guess as to what the biggest cost is?
 

brianwr112

Well-known member
I would guess that renting out St. John's isn't cheap and I'm guessing they also have to pay to staff it. I don't know what the attendance numbers have been but have yet to run into anyone scalping tickets.
 

Basement Bias

Active member
A good place to discuss would be indianamat as the IHSWCA had to create a team dual event after the IHSAA pulled the plug 10 or so years ago on the state duals for Indiana. However, it was a single class (division in Ohio meaning 1-3 all together) when the IHSAA ran it. When the IHSWCA took over it became classed (divisions separated). I believe the first year or two the tournament was run in Muncie and then moved to Ft Wayne at the Coliseum in the expo hall. Many don't like the location, but it's nice for those of us only 30 to 45 minutes from Ft Wayne compared to the long trip from Evansville, Crown Point, Jeffersonville, and etc. Just some thoughts though. Too bad seasons weren't long enough to have 2 team dual and 2 individual state tournaments both separate class/divisions and single class/division. Hopefully you guys can get a dual tournament up and running again.
 

bucksman

Moderator
Bucksman - do you know what the biggest cost is for the Team Tournament? Or, do you have an educated guess as to what the biggest cost is?
There has been much more fluctuation with the year-to-year loss for team wrestling at the regional level than at the state level. Some of that might be accounting methodology, but I think that intuitively makes sense.

One of the things I saw from being involved in running a super regional in comparison to attending the regional semi/final a few times is that the super regionals had absolutely dreadful attendance, while some of the regional semi/final sites actually had passable attendance (i.e. you would actually have people who weren't immediate family of the wrestlers attend).

That covers the revenue side. As far as for the cost side of things, I honestly do not have an informed answer. I would be interested in seeing some of the site financial reports in order to look through costs.
 

Crossface86

New member
If the costs could be limited to paying the officials, then it could work. I mean, we hosted our Regional last year and showed that it can be run effectively in a smallish gym (squeezed in 4 full mats). Our friends-of-the-program ran tables (they would have done it for free), and our coach's hospitality room was run by volunteers. We had tons of food and beverages donated by parents and friends, and the costs were almost nothing. I don't know anyone at the high school level who is in it for the money when running tournaments (though I'm sure there are some); we know how to run outstanding events on pennies. Speaking a bit out of ignorance on this because I don't know what all the costs are for running the Finals, but whatever they are, I'm thinking most can be eliminated.

I've said it before:

1. Allow teams to bid for the Finals, just like we do for the Regionals.
2. I'd rotate separate host sites for the Finals through the Regions each year, say Region 1 hosts D1 this year, Region 2 hosts D2, and Region 3 hosts D3. I wouldn't host all 3 Divisions in the same Regional for fear of running out of hotel and restaurant accommodations in some of the sparcely-populated school districts.
3. The top 2 teams from each Regional qualify for the Finals. This way, the Finals are the same size as the Regionals (16 bracket), and there would be a little more equity in the Finals bracket. Far too often there are some high quality teams left home; this can alleviate that at least a little.
4. No one except the officials get paid, and the gyms are also rent-free since the host volunteered.
5. Seeding would be done by the coaches, just like the Regionals. I wouldn't say it would be any more or less accurate than the way it's done now, but at least the coaches would have direct input, and the process wouldn't be done behind a curtain. From what I've seen the seeding at the Regionals and Finals have been very accurate at the top half and a little less so in the bottom half.

I know in the age of COVID this still wouldn't happen, but as a way to limit the financial carnage in the future, perhaps a model similar to this might gain traction. As you can probably tell, I have a real passion for the Team tournament, and I want to help find a way for it to work. I loved taking our Team to St. Johns for the experience, but if we have to choose to not wrestle at St. Johns or to wrestle in someone's gym, who is going to say no to more wrestling?
 
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chidy

Well-known member
2020 finances have not come out yet for team/individual wrestling, or at least aren't on the OHSAA site.

2019 (First year of super regionals) - team wrestling had an across the board net loss of 60K, the overall individual tournament had a net gain of 155K
2018 - team lost 10K, individual gained 148K
2017 - team lost 38K, individual gained 182K
2016 - team lost 29K, individual gained 182K
2015 - team lost 53K, individual gained 170K

What does "across the board" mean? Is that a different loss than the other losses in 15-18?. I have a hard time believing that the Super regional lost more than any other year but maybe I'm wrong. I believe in the first couple of years that they ran it was losing close to 100k
 
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mailman112

Well-known member
The old way was the best way. Top 8 RETURNING state point getters (from a team aspect) wrestle one day for each division. The event was held at Wadsworth and well done. Done by 7pm on a Sunday.
 

bucksman

Moderator
What does "across the board" mean? Is that a different loss than the other losses in 15-18?. I have a hard time believing that the Super regional lost more than any other year but maybe I'm wrong. I believe in the first couple of years that they ran it was losing close to 100k
Across the board is to say the whole series of the event - state, regional, admin expenses. Same accounting as those from 15-18.

mailman112, the "old" way was NOT OHSAA sponsored. It was not an all-in tournament, but an INVITATIONAL. The criteria was established by the coaches association based on prior year underclassmen district and state tournament points/metrics. Top two per district tournament the prior year.
 

Crossface86

New member
I don't understand why people think that having a few returning State qualifiers makes for a strong team. Sure its nice to have, but individual prowess at the Individual Tournament does NOT project team strength the following year. Again, for the big-name programs that send a half dozen or more kids to C-Bus each year, there is probably a relatively strong correlation. But, a team that returns 4 qualifiers and the rest of the team stinks or there are holes, this is not necessarily the strongest team. I'm not speaking in hypotheticals ... the team I help coach routinely dispatches of teams that have several State-caliber kids, and we do it because we have a full line-up, the team is balanced, and the kids do exactly what is asked of them. Why in the world are people hellbent on further rewarding individual efforts? I thought the Team Tournament was supposed to help save our sport by making the Team aspects a priority!

Go ahead, I'll take my medicine now.
 

Crimsonblooded

Active member
It’s true and if there is gonna be a lot more duals this year to base it off why not factor in head to head and a dual ranking. What’s a couple more duals in respected regionals before the state duals.
 

WGTJ

Active member
I don't understand why people think that having a few returning State qualifiers makes for a strong team. Sure its nice to have, but individual prowess at the Individual Tournament does NOT project team strength the following year. Again, for the big-name programs that send a half dozen or more kids to C-Bus each year, there is probably a relatively strong correlation. But, a team that returns 4 qualifiers and the rest of the team stinks or there are holes, this is not necessarily the strongest team. I'm not speaking in hypotheticals ... the team I help coach routinely dispatches of teams that have several State-caliber kids, and we do it because we have a full line-up, the team is balanced, and the kids do exactly what is asked of them. Why in the world are people hellbent on further rewarding individual efforts? I thought the Team Tournament was supposed to help save our sport by making the Team aspects a priority!

Go ahead, I'll take my medicine now.
This would have been my team my senior year. Only regular season tournament that we didn't win was Alliance and that was when Ed's and Walsh went there. We were the best dual team in central Ohio because we had a senior laden team. Just so happens the best two on the team were a freshman and a junior who were both state Champs the next year, but the team overall wasn't nearly as good (we sent 5 to state my senior year and should have sent 7).
 

cruiser_96

Well-known member
Am I correct in stating the the previous system used underclassmen district scores to determine the State Duals competitors for each region???

Ex.: if a team had 8 DQs, but 2 were seniors, the calculations would only factor in those remaining six kids. And if 2 of those six went 0-2, they didn’t earn any points (at that district tournament OR in terms of State Duals points)???

Anyone else remember when Baumspage had a link for that within each district site. Those were the days!!!!
 

mailman112

Well-known member
Am I correct in stating the the previous system used underclassmen district scores to determine the State Duals competitors for each region???

Ex.: if a team had 8 DQs, but 2 were seniors, the calculations would only factor in those remaining six kids. And if 2 of those six went 0-2, they didn’t earn any points (at that district tournament OR in terms of State Duals points)???

Anyone else remember when Baumspage had a link for that within each district site. Those were the days!!!!
You are correct. Just returning underclassman. I know Bucksman said "was NOT OHSAA sponsored." but frankly the old way everyone agreed that was the dual team champion for each division. Again most years the returning point teams would make the final 8 teams. Now with Ed's hosting Elyria, Wadsworth and DC ( I understand Brecksville was invited but declined) a D1 champ will be crowned.
 
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