2016/2017 NCAA discussion thread......

14Red said:
I'm not concerned about NCAA violations, he just does not have the vision for ALL the kids, he's only concerned with one thing, getting them ready for the NBA. Even as good as he recruits, MOST of his players will not play pro basketball, or at least for any significant amount of time.
In my world, I want college coaches to get these kids ready for real life. The NBA is and should remain a pipe dream for most of these kids. They have the opportunity to get a legitimate degree...for FREE!!! We spend way too much time talking about draft stock and playing pro ball. Only the select few get there.
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Again, do you not think that Cal wants all his one and dones to stay? He would win a title every year if all of his players stayed 3 or 4 years.

Um....what?
2009: 4/6 recruits drafted by the NBA. 3/4 drafted playing significant minutes. 2/4 are NBA team's cornerstone building block. 6/6 are still playing professional basketball. Orton, Dodson and Hood are playing overseas.

2010: 4/6 Drafted in the NBA. 3/6 Still getting significant minutes in the NBA. 5/6 are still playing professional basketball. Vargas and Lamb are playing overseas.

2011: 3/4 Drafted in the NBA. 1 is an franchise player, one of the next big things. 4/4 still playing professionally. Wiltjer is in the D League. Teague is playing overseas.

2012: 3/4 drafted in the NBA. 4/4 still playing professionally. Goodwin and Poythress are in the D League.

2013: 4/7 drafted in the NBA. 5/7 still playing professionally. One Harrison Twin, Dakari Johnson and James Young are all in the D League.

2014: 4/4 drafted the NBA. One is another franchise cornerstone, one of the next big things to come. 4/4 are playing professionally. Ulis is in the D-League.

2015: So far 2/6 have been drafted. The other 4 are in their sophomore years this year.

So not counting his 2015 class, 27 of his 31 recruits have made it professionally.
 
Jim Lahey said:
Again, do you not think that Cal wants all his one and dones to stay? He would win a title every year if all of his players stayed 3 or 4 years.

Um....what?
2009: 4/6 recruits drafted by the NBA. 3/4 drafted playing significant minutes. 2/4 are NBA team's cornerstone building block. 6/6 are still playing professional basketball. Orton, Dodson and Hood are playing overseas.

2010: 4/6 Drafted in the NBA. 3/6 Still getting significant minutes in the NBA. 5/6 are still playing professional basketball. Vargas and Lamb are playing overseas.

2011: 3/4 Drafted in the NBA. 1 is an franchise player, one of the next big things. 4/4 still playing professionally. Wiltjer is in the D League. Teague is playing overseas.

2012: 3/4 drafted in the NBA. 4/4 still playing professionally. Goodwin and Poythress are in the D League.

2013: 4/7 drafted in the NBA. 5/7 still playing professionally. One Harrison Twin, Dakari Johnson and James Young are all in the D League.

2014: 4/4 drafted the NBA. One is another franchise cornerstone, one of the next big things to come. 4/4 are playing professionally. Ulis is in the D-League.

2015: So far 2/6 have been drafted. The other 4 are in their sophomore years this year.

So not counting his 2015 class, 27 of his 31 recruits have made it professionally.
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I think Kentucky's roster is typically 14-15 players per season, your only focusing on a 1/3 of the team?? Are you equating D-league and overseas as "making it"? Here in lies the falacy of pro sports. Being on an D-league roster or playing in Turkey for one year shouldn't be the goal. Sadly it's where alot of these guys end up. And to answer your original question, No, acutually Cal would rather churn these guys out in one or two years because he's promised the next group of blue chippers scholarships. And the really sad story is the kids who he takes scholarships away from if they are still there as juniors because he's got the next one and done ready to come.
 
14Red said:
I think Kentucky's roster is typically 14-15 players per season, your only focusing on a 1/3 of the team?? Are you equating D-league and overseas as "making it"? Here in lies the falacy of pro sports. Being on an D-league roster or playing in Turkey for one year shouldn't be the goal. Sadly it's where alot of these guys end up. And to answer your original question, No, acutually Cal would rather churn these guys out in one or two years because he's promised the next group of blue chippers scholarships. And the really sad story is the kids who he takes scholarships away from if they are still there as juniors because he's got the next one and done ready to come.
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I'm not only focusing on 1/3 of the team. I'm focusing on the scholarship players Cal recruits every single year. You do realize every recruiting class doesn't bring in 12-15 players, right? Most recruiting classes have somewhere between 2-5 players.

No, that's not the fallacy. You are the one who stated, and I quote, "MOST of his players will not play pro basketball" I hate to break it to you but being paid a paycheck for playing basketball is playing pro basketball. And yes that includes the D-League. Unless you're saying we don't count players who were drafted and given multi-million dollar contracts (James Young, for example). He's making about $1.8 million this year even though he is in the D League. Are you saying playing basketball for $1.8 million in one year means he isn't a pro ball player?

And why wouldn't Turkey count? The lowest salary I could find in a respectable Euroleague was $65k/year. $65k/year puts them above the average income in America. Given, on average, athletes are less intelligent than the average student, that's a fantastic amount of money a year out of college. And that doesn't include additional benefits. Many Euroleague teams provide housing and food for Americans who come play. So including benefits we're talking, at minimum, $80,000.
 
You really don't think Cal wanted a potential AD, MKG, Wall,Bledsoe lineup?

Call is probably the most outspoken coax against the NBA rule on eligibility. Could you imagine how much better his teams would be if he had them for multiple years considering they growth they typically show each year from start to finish.

Better hope they don't make it a two year
 
Jim Lahey said:
I'm not only focusing on 1/3 of the team. I'm focusing on the scholarship players Cal recruits every single year. You do realize every recruiting class doesn't bring in 12-15 players, right? Most recruiting classes have somewhere between 2-5 players.

No, that's not the fallacy. You are the one who stated, and I quote, "MOST of his players will not play pro basketball" I hate to break it to you but being paid a paycheck for playing basketball is playing pro basketball. And yes that includes the D-League. Unless you're saying we don't count players who were drafted and given multi-million dollar contracts (James Young, for example). He's making about $1.8 million this year even though he is in the D League. Are you saying playing basketball for $1.8 million in one year means he isn't a pro ball player?

And why wouldn't Turkey count? The lowest salary I could find in a respectable Euroleague was $65k/year. $65k/year puts them above the average income in America. Given, on average, athletes are less intelligent than the average student, that's a fantastic amount of money a year out of college. And that doesn't include additional benefits. Many Euroleague teams provide housing and food for Americans who come play. So including benefits we're talking, at minimum, $80,000.
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So these guys go to Kentucky, are promised the moon and stars, doesn't get a degree, goes over sees and makes $80,000 for 4-5 years, then their career is over and they are 27 years old... NOW WHAT????

My original point was that the NBA create a legitimate minor leagues, colleges actually attempt to have these who enroll in their schools stick around for 3 years and at least have most of a legitimate degree accomplished. THAT'S the goal.
Cal's one and dones enroll in August, go to baskeweaving 101 in the fall, don't go to classes in the spring and go onto pro basketball. That's ok with you for college athletics???
 
Cal doesn't promise theme anything. In fact he has stated hi recruiting tactic is promise one thing, make you better. In fact he tells them why they shouldn't come, can't stand the pressure of BBN, you wont want to work hard enough, other superstatars who will take minutes and praise away from you.
 
14Red said:
So these guys go to Kentucky, are promised the moon and stars, doesn't get a degree, goes over sees and makes $80,000 for 4-5 years, then their career is over and they are 27 years old... NOW WHAT????

My original point was that the NBA create a legitimate minor leagues, colleges actually attempt to have these who enroll in their schools stick around for 3 years and at least have most of a legitimate degree accomplished. THAT'S the goal.
Cal's one and dones enroll in August, go to baskeweaving 101 in the fall, don't go to classes in the spring and go onto pro basketball. That's ok with you for college athletics???
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Now they have a solid base of income, can return to the states and finish their degree if they so choose. If they don't, they likely would have never gone to college without basketball in the first place. :shrug:

There's a legitimate minor league.
 
Plenty have come back to take classes including some in the NBA currently.

Also just like OSU and other big time programs these guys are taken care of after their careers, even the lesser players. Just ask Jarrod Polson and the litany of other players who have decent jobs because of their status as a former UK player no matter the role played on the team.

The fact of the matter is these boys are given to attend college for free if they so choose. They are given the opportunity to showcase their skills to the world and NBA and make a career off of basketball if they so choose. It is their decision to leave or stay. It is an NBA rule. How can you blame any coach for not going after the best player no matter how long they will be in school? Could you imagine the backlash Cal would face if he decided he didn't want blue chip recruits at a program like Kentucky? Just like in the business world you take the best person available 10 out of 10 times.
 
Why is there no disdain for Coach K or Bill Self from you? Two coaches who have adapted to the new norm of college basketball. Both have sent many players after one or two years to the NBA. Cal seems to get the most criticism for it and before 2012 the mantra was he couldn't win with young players.

I have no problem with any coach working within the system and going after the best talent no matter how long they will be in school.
 
Jim Lahey said:
Now they have a solid base of income, can return to the states and finish their degree if they so choose. If they don't, they likely would have never gone to college without basketball in the first place. :shrug:

There's a legitimate minor league.
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Aren't you tired of this 40 year old "dumb jock" problem? I'm 51 years old and it was the same thing in the 80's. How about the adults make the rules and actually "raise" these kids instead of their agents and people in their lives looking for a payday??

And they don't go to college anyway, at least more than one semester.
 
Arrogate said:
Plenty have come back to take classes including some in the NBA currently.

Also just like OSU and other big time programs these guys are taken care of after their careers, even the lesser players. Just ask Jarrod Polson and the litany of other players who have decent jobs because of their status as a former UK player no matter the role played on the team.

The fact of the matter is these boys are given to attend college for free if they so choose. They are given the opportunity to showcase their skills to the world and NBA and make a career off of basketball if they so choose. It is their decision to leave or stay. It is an NBA rule. How can you blame any coach for not going after the best player no matter how long they will be in school? Could you imagine the backlash Cal would face if he decided he didn't want blue chip recruits at a program like Kentucky? Just like in the business world you take the best person available 10 out of 10 times.
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My point, have a legitimate "minor" league for the NBA, like baseball. Each franchise would have two or three single A, double A and triple A programs. The kid that's 18 and has no interest in being a college student doesn't go! Basically any kid who wants to be a one and done, don't enroll in college! It's a sham to the kid and college basketball to "pretend" to be a college student for the fall semester and then get ready for the draft.
I would also give any kid, under the triple A level, the ability after two seasons, to be re-recruited and become a college basketball player. They would only have two years of eligibility and that's it. Many of these kids who think they are the next LeBron, after they flame out, could get a "redo" and actually become a college student.
I think the other thing you do is raise the bar on entrance into college.
 
14Red said:
Aren't you tired of this 40 year old "dumb jock" problem? I'm 51 years old and it was the same thing in the 80's. How about the adults make the rules and actually "raise" these kids instead of their agents and people in their lives looking for a payday??

And they don't go to college anyway, at least more than one semester.
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No. What part of "most of these kids wouldn't be in college without sports" do you not understand? The fact they are getting any education is good.
 
14Red said:
My point, have a legitimate "minor" league for the NBA, like baseball. Each franchise would have two or three single A, double A and triple A programs. The kid that's 18 and has no interest in being a college student doesn't go! Basically any kid who wants to be a one and done, don't enroll in college! It's a sham to the kid and college basketball to "pretend" to be a college student for the fall semester and then get ready for the draft.
I would also give any kid, under the triple A level, the ability after two seasons, to be re-recruited and become a college basketball player. They would only have two years of eligibility and that's it. Many of these kids who think they are the next LeBron, after they flame out, could get a "redo" and actually become a college student.
I think the other thing you do is raise the bar on entrance into college.
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Again, there is already a legitimate minor league.

As far as your "re-recruiting" process: no. It's against NCAA rules.
 
Would that open the floodgates for minor league baseball players as well to come back to scool or are you talking just basketball? Either way NCAA would never go for it. I'm sure they are hoping the NBA makes it a two year rule so they can make more money off of these highly talented players who would be in the NBA
 
Jim Lahey said:
No. What part of "most of these kids wouldn't be in college without sports" do you not understand? The fact they are getting any education is good.
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Ha ha, you think one semeser of going to half their remedial classes is "good"???

They've had english, math and history most of their other 12 years of schooling and was passed along, you think being in college classes for 3 months is "good"??

Let's just agree that you don't care about the student athlete's education, only if they can play a sport the time they are eligible at your favorite school. At least you won't be lying to me anymore.
 
So most kids in college attend for one semester or a select few NBA prospects?

On UK's team you had Jamal Murray and Skal Labisierre leave as freshman. That's two. How many on other teams left after one semester? Maybe 20 at most I don't know the answer but I am pointing out not everyone leaves after one year

So I would agree with Lahey'a statement that a lot of athletes wouldn't be in school including 4 year players who make up the largest proportion of athletes would not be in school or as good of schools had their skills as athletes been so great

Also it could be argued the NCAA doesn't care about their educational well being either. UNC academic scandal rings a bell. Pretty much nothing happened from that from the NCAA
 
14Red said:
Ha ha, you think one semeser of going to half their remedial classes is "good"???

They've had english, math and history most of their other 12 years of schooling and was passed along, you think being in college classes for 3 months is "good"??

Let's just agree that you don't care about the student athlete's education, only if they can play a sport the time they are eligible at your favorite school. At least you won't be lying to me anymore.
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So you're saying zero education is better than 3 months of education? That would explain many of your posts.

Where have I said I cared about their education? No I don't care about their education. I'm not dumb enough to pretend a large majority of them would be at their respective schools if it wasn't for the fact they could play a sport.
 
Arrogate said:
So most kids in college attend for one semester or a select few NBA prospects?

On UK's team you had Jamal Murray and Skal Labisierre leave as freshman. That's two. How many on other teams left after one semester? Maybe 20 at most I don't know the answer but I am pointing out not everyone leaves after one year

So I would agree with Lahey'a statement that a lot of athletes wouldn't be in school including 4 year players who make up the largest proportion of athletes would not be in school or as good of schools had their skills as athletes been so great

Also it could be argued the NCAA doesn't care about their educational well being either. UNC academic scandal rings a bell. Pretty much nothing happened from that from the NCAA
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Fact: 14 freshmen were drafted in the NBA last year. Even if we round up to 20 (for those who try to make it as UDFA, and that 6 additional is an incredibly high estimate):

Fact: In 2015-16 there were 18,510 NCAA men's basketball players.

Fact: 0.108% of NCAA men's basketball players left after 1 year in 2015-16.

Fact: 14Red is a damn moron.

http://scholarshipstats.com/basketball.htm
 
While Cal is definitely dirty, he's also a great coach, so I'd say those kids are getting a world class basketball education at UK. :shrug:
 
Jim Lahey said:
So you're saying zero education is better than 3 months of education? That would explain many of your posts.

Where have I said I cared about their education? No I don't care about their education. I'm not dumb enough to pretend a large majority of them would be at their respective schools if it wasn't for the fact they could play a sport.
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That, my friend, tells me everything I need to know about you and your views on sports and student-athletes. We have nothing else to discuss regarding this topic.
The sad days of Dexter Manley and Chris Washburn, nearly illiterate people after going through high school and some college still exist because of your mindset. Our high schools and colleges are failing these kids miserably. And to make my point (the original one way back when) is to have a minor league basketball system where these guys can leave high school after their sophomore year and go play pro ball, like baseball does. Give away any hopes of any formal education because you can run, jump, pass, tackle or shoot. Sad, just sad...
 
14Red said:
That, my friend, tells me everything I need to know about you and your views on sports and student-athletes. We have nothing else to discuss regarding this topic.
The sad days of Dexter Manley and Chris Washburn, nearly illiterate people after going through high school and some college still exist because of your mindset. Our high schools and colleges are failing these kids miserably. And to make my point (the original one way back when) is to have a minor league basketball system where these guys can leave high school after their sophomore year and go play pro ball, like baseball does. Give away any hopes of any formal education because you can run, jump, pass, tackle or shoot. Sad, just sad...
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And yet you go on to type out a paragraph of dumbazzery? How many times do I have to repeat myself? There is already a minor league. Can't believe it took you 5 days to say something this stupid.

FYI, in 2009 45 NBA players took summer classes at a university. Of those included: Westbrook and Durant, both one and dones. In 2015 Chris Paul went back to Wake Forest. After retiring, Troy Murphy got accepted into Columbia to finish his degree. During the lockout in 2011, John Wall was taking classes. But please, continue to be an idiot. It's highly amusing.
 
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Meanwhile UK has added another player, Diallo, a 5 star guard in next year's class who is enrolling this spring he could play this year but I doubt it. He will most likely practice this year, redshirt, and play next year. Unless he gets a first round grade,which I doubt, he could leave for the NBA. UK has a 5 star player at every position in next year's recruiting class. Calipari is doing them a disservice by letting them showcase their skills at UK.
 
14Red said:
That, my friend, tells me everything I need to know about you and your views on sports and student-athletes. We have nothing else to discuss regarding this topic.
The sad days of Dexter Manley and Chris Washburn, nearly illiterate people after going through high school and some college still exist because of your mindset. Our high schools and colleges are failing these kids miserably. And to make my point (the original one way back when) is to have a minor league basketball system where these guys can leave high school after their sophomore year and go play pro ball, like baseball does. Give away any hopes of any formal education because you can run, jump, pass, tackle or shoot. Sad, just sad...
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Cant they go play in the Dleague?


Also, we cannot ridicule those who leave early too much. They are a cross section of the educational process. Any given year there are thousands plus kids who leave college after their frosh/soph years for many a reasons.


If you or I were a frosh in college in any given field, and all of a sudden we could go work in that field and make that big money like those players do I am pretty sure we would do the same thing.
 
thavoice said:
Cant they go play in the Dleague?


Also, we cannot ridicule those who leave early too much. They are a cross section of the educational process. Any given year there are thousands plus kids who leave college after their frosh/soph years for many a reasons.


If you or I were a frosh in college in any given field, and all of a sudden we could go work in that field and make that big money like those players do I am pretty sure we would do the same thing.
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Apples and oranges my friend. The difference is that the typical college student enrolls at the beginning of the semester with the intention of graduating someday. Some of these student-athletes enroll simply to stay eligible the semester or three that they are going to be at that school. The school does not allow them to play without enrolling.

And yes...IF, IF you land a big job that does not require the college degree, sure, we'd all take it. But remember, about 90% of the jobs you are talking about REQUIRES you to have that degree in hand when you go to work.
 
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