Shorten the season

K

keithcarter

Active member
Listening to FRL today. They said 18 states are having their state championships this weekend!

Most ohio schools havent even had conference tournaments yet.

How and Why is our season so much longer than everyone else?

Most of you know i love freestyle and thats part of my gripe because athletes dont get a break between folk and free and other states get a 4 week jump on us on Freestyle training.
 
 
Next year it is a week shorter .
However the week lost is at the beginning of the season, because of contracts signed with OSU, so that won't help your cause.
We are stuck!
 
Jim Behrens said:
Next year it is a week shorter .
However the week lost is at the beginning of the season, because of contracts signed with OSU, so that won't help your cause.
We are stuck!
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i just dont understand how other states get a full season in, 3-4 weeks before us!
 
Jim Behrens said:
Next year it is a week shorter .
However the week lost is at the beginning of the season, because of contracts signed with OSU, so that won't help your cause.
We are stuck!
Click to expand...
Some of the states that have finished start their season earlier so they may not actually shorter.
 
keithcarter said:
i just dont understand how other states get a full season in, 3-4 weeks before us!
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Believe me, I am not disagreeing.
IMO, the OHSAA kind of dropped the ball in continuing to use the Schott but, to the best of my knowledge, it might be the only building in Ohio that can hold enough mats (and this year, that will be tested).
I know people do not like to hear it but I think a better solution is to hold two of the divisions at one location and the other two at another location. The D1, D2, and D3 boys could be rotated with the girls so all is evened out. The tournaments could be run in two days as only 8 mats would be needed at either location. This way the OHSAA is not tied down by OSU restrictions. This would also get rid of wrestling on Sundays.
Like I said, I don't expect this to be a popular idea but we have to work with what we have. Also, before any of the grumpy old men chime in, the girls are not going away so we have to deal with reality.
 
Jim Behrens said:
Believe me, I am not disagreeing.
IMO, the OHSAA kind of dropped the ball in continuing to use the Schott but, to the best of my knowledge, it might be the only building in Ohio that can hold enough mats (and this year, that will be tested).
I know people do not like to hear it but I think a better solution is to hold two of the divisions at one location and the other two at another location. The D1, D2, and D3 boys could be rotated with the girls so all is evened out. The tournaments could be run in two days as only 8 mats would be needed at either location. This way the OHSAA is not tied down by OSU restrictions. This would also get rid of wrestling on Sundays.
Like I said, I don't expect this to be a popular idea but we have to work with what we have. Also, before any of the grumpy old men chime in, the girls are not going away so we have to deal with reality.
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Jim

I wonder what the schedule would look like with tOSU if it was mid february?

Quick looks at mens basketball, womens basketball, and mens hockey tells me they are all 3 out of town this weekend.

Looking at the Schott Schedule, they have zero events Thursday to Sunday this week.

I dont want to move location but feels like the date can move pretty easily.
 
Jim Behrens said:
Believe me, I am not disagreeing.
IMO, the OHSAA kind of dropped the ball in continuing to use the Schott but, to the best of my knowledge, it might be the only building in Ohio that can hold enough mats (and this year, that will be tested).
I know people do not like to hear it but I think a better solution is to hold two of the divisions at one location and the other two at another location. The D1, D2, and D3 boys could be rotated with the girls so all is evened out. The tournaments could be run in two days as only 8 mats would be needed at either location. This way the OHSAA is not tied down by OSU restrictions. This would also get rid of wrestling on Sundays.
Like I said, I don't expect this to be a popular idea but we have to work with what we have. Also, before any of the grumpy old men chime in, the girls are not going away so we have to deal with reality.
Click to expand...
This would be even less popular, but if we're going to separate them, I could live with all four of them being in different locations. Sure, there are a lot of people who want to watch all three (plus the girls), but most people are probably focused primarily on one Division. If nothing else, it would sure simplify logistics. I'm NOT suggesting this only saying this could be option if logistics are considered too much of a cluster.
 
keithcarter said:
Jim

I wonder what the schedule would look like with tOSU if it was mid february?

Quick looks at mens basketball, womens basketball, and mens hockey tells me they are all 3 out of town this weekend.

Looking at the Schott Schedule, they have zero events Thursday to Sunday this week.

I dont want to move location but feels like the date can move pretty easily.
Click to expand...
You make a great point but it is FAR above my pay grade.
Heck, squeezing the three weeks before Christmas into two weeks is already presenting scheduling issues.
 
Jim Behrens said:
You make a great point but it is FAR above my pay grade.
Heck, squeezing the three weeks before Christmas into two weeks is already presenting scheduling issues.
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we are such creatures of habit. Same tournaments (during regular season) every year on the same weekends.

I know Franklins Junior High tournament had to move weekends this year and lost most the teams.

This would cause headaches but i think its doable.
 
keithcarter said:
we are such creatures of habit. Same tournaments (during regular season) every year on the same weekends.

I know Franklins Junior High tournament had to move weekends this year and lost most the teams.

This would cause headaches but i think its doable.
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From my standpoint, as an assigner for officials, I fear that there simply will not be enough guys to cover the events. Many guys work the first three weeks of the season doing, more or less, the same tournaments every year. Now when those three weekends are compressed into two, they can't possibly do all of them.
To that end, I wonder how many tournaments that would normally be held on the third weekend of the season (N Canton Hoover being an example) are going to move to the second weekend OR are they going to go on December 22 and 23?
This is going to be interesting.
Time will tell.
 
Jim Behrens said:
Next year it is a week shorter .
However the week lost is at the beginning of the season, because of contracts signed with OSU, so that won't help your cause.
We are stuck!
Click to expand...
I'd be fine with one week shorter, but that's it, no shorter.
 
I'm not liking that we're basically starting practices the week of Thanksgiving next year. Rural district, lots of hunters taking time off.

With that said, I deal/ manage whatever calendar I'm given from above to work around. I wouldn't complain if it did finish in February like in the past when I wrestled. Heck, I had a memory pop up on social media earlier this week from sectionals 2014, so we were ending earlier not that long ago.
 
keithcarter said:
Jim

I wonder what the schedule would look like with tOSU if it was mid february?

Quick looks at mens basketball, womens basketball, and mens hockey tells me they are all 3 out of town this weekend.

Looking at the Schott Schedule, they have zero events Thursday to Sunday this week.

I dont want to move location but feels like the date can move pretty easily.
Click to expand...
This is a good thought but tOSU will either not do it or jack up the price due to having to bring up the ice and then relaying it.

Currently, all options are being explored within the State Coaches Association in conjunction with the OHSAA. Feel free to reach out to your district's rep to give any additional thoughts or ideas.
 
I think most points have been laid in this thread already.

Michigan - their first weekend of competition is one week after ours currently (it will be the same weekend next year). They are holding team and individual regionals this week, dual team state is next weekend with individual state the weekend of our district tournament

Pennsylvania - they had a weird first weekend this season with it being moved up to correspond to ours after being one week later for so many years, though many teams still started the week after us this year. Some teams start their post-season this week, while others start next week. Their state finals are the same week as ours.

Indiana - their season start date is one-to-two weeks earlier than ours, though many teams choose not to start until after Thanksgiving anyway. Their state championship is this weekend, with three weeks of preliminary layers in the state series.

Iowa - their season starts the same week as ours does currently. They are ending their season this weekend, and had state qualification tournaments last weekend. They held a dual team event two weekends ago with preliminaries during the week.

Illinois - they start their season the week of Thanksgiving, and are holding their individual state finals this week. There were two weeks of preliminary state layers before hand. A dual team preliminary round is being held this coming Tuesday involving teams that won the first-layer individual state series tournament, with the dual team final eight being held next weekend.

New Jersey - they start their season two weeks after we do currently (so one week next year). They held dual team state playoffs all of last week. The first week of their post-season on the individual side is this week with regional and state the following two weeks.

Minnesota - same start date that we currently have. They are holding team section tournaments this week with individual section tournaments next week. Dual team and individual state are both in two weeks time.

Our season is absurdly long compared to peer states across the country. The winter sports season across sports is long compared to the fall season, while it is absurdly longer than spring. Unfortunately the situation with Ohio State has led to a forced shortening on the front end of the season, as the back end of the season could not be touched. As cited in the post above me, our coaches association is trying to work through all the options to make the season a more amenable length for all.
 
Just what we need more changes the OHSAA already made changes this year and now we have girls state along with boys, they don’t need any more changes they aren’t good changes
 
Unpopular, but effective ---

Find a new venue to hold 8 mats (not 10).
State event will go 4 days in entirety with each division completing their portion in 2 days.
Rotate which divisions go on which days and with what other division to ensure equality.

Thursday - Sunday time frame. Everyone sacrifices their Sundays every 2 years.

EXAMPLE
Day 1 & Day 2 --- Division I & Division II state tournament
Day 3 & Day 4 --- Division III & Girls state tournament

The following year .....
Day 1 & Day 2 --- Girls & Division I state tournament
Day 3 & Day 4 --- Division II & Division III state tournament


Keep that rotation; similar to soccer's rotation as to the order of championship games between the 3 divisions.


Less mats needed, less time spent in the gym, new venue (could be smaller size). Nutter Center comes to mind as just an example of one that could host.

Do it right and you could even (possibly) bring back the stage as a smaller one is needed for just 2 mats. More hands on deck to help set-up and tear down but it's an idea.
 
Campolongo said:
Unpopular, but effective ---

Find a new venue to hold 8 mats (not 10).
State event will go 4 days in entirety with each division completing their portion in 2 days.
Rotate which divisions go on which days and with what other division to ensure equality.

Thursday - Sunday time frame. Everyone sacrifices their Sundays every 2 years.

EXAMPLE
Day 1 & Day 2 --- Division I & Division II state tournament
Day 3 & Day 4 --- Division III & Girls state tournament

The following year .....
Day 1 & Day 2 --- Girls & Division I state tournament
Day 3 & Day 4 --- Division II & Division III state tournament


Keep that rotation; similar to soccer's rotation as to the order of championship games between the 3 divisions.


Less mats needed, less time spent in the gym, new venue (could be smaller size). Nutter Center comes to mind as just an example of one that could host.

Do it right and you could even (possibly) bring back the stage as a smaller one is needed for just 2 mats. More hands on deck to help set-up and tear down but it's an idea.
Click to expand...
Ironically this is exactly what I was suggesting as soon as the OHSAA sanctioned the girls tournament. I mentioned to the state DOD and to Tyler Brooks and now Tyler is gone.
 
bucksman said:
I think most points have been laid in this thread already.

Michigan - their first weekend of competition is one week after ours currently (it will be the same weekend next year). They are holding team and individual regionals this week, dual team state is next weekend with individual state the weekend of our district tournament .
Click to expand...

bucksman said:
Pennsylvania - they had a weird first weekend this season with it being moved up to correspond to ours after being one week later for so many years, though many teams still started the week after us this year. Some teams start their post-season this week, while others start next week. Their state finals are the same week as ours. THE ONLY STATE WITH MORE POPULATION THAN OHIO AND WITH THE SAME EMPHASIS ON FOOTBALL WHICH MAKE SENSE ON THEIR START AND FINISH DATES BEING LIKE OHIO"S

Indiana - their season start date is one-to-two weeks earlier than ours, though many teams choose not to start until after Thanksgiving anyway. Their state championship is this weekend, with three weeks of preliminary layers in the state series.

Iowa - their season starts the same week as ours does currently. They are ending their season this weekend, and had state qualification tournaments last weekend. They held a dual team event two weekends ago with preliminaries during the week.

Illinois - they start their season the week of Thanksgiving, and are holding their individual state finals this week. There were two weeks of preliminary state layers before hand. A dual team preliminary round is being held this coming Tuesday involving teams that won the first-layer individual state series tournament, with the dual team final eight being held next weekend.

New Jersey - they start their season two weeks after we do currently (so one week next year). They held dual team state playoffs all of last week. The first week of their post-season on the individual side is this week with regional and state the following two weeks.

Minnesota - same start date that we currently have. They are holding team section tournaments this week with individual section tournaments next week. Dual team and individual state are both in two weeks time.

Our season is absurdly long compared to peer states across the country. The winter sports season across sports is long compared to the fall season, while it is absurdly longer than spring. Unfortunately the situation with Ohio State has led to a forced shortening on the front end of the season, as the back end of the season could not be touched. As cited in the post above me, our coaches association is trying to work through all the options to make the season a more amenable length for all.
Click to expand...
By numbers and by State HS Boys who Wrestle : All numbers subject to the particular year

Illinois - Population 13m Boys HS wrestlers 14,170
Ohio - Population 12m Boys HS wrestlers 12,568
Michigan Population 10.5m Boys HS wrestlers 11,018
Pennsylvania Population 13m Boys HS wrestlers 10,859
New Jersey Population 9.2m Boys HS wrestlers 10,199
Iowa Population 3.1m Boys HS wrestlers 7,750
Minnesota Population 5.7m Boys HS wrestlers 7,400
Indiana Population 6.8M Boys HS wrestlers 6,400

The start and end times by State factors:
Start of School Year
HS Boys wrestling
Football Playoffs and importance by State of Football
Size of the State and Population ( very important in Iowa if their population was the size of Ohio you could expect close to 20,000 HS boys wrestlers).
Number of Officials available
Travel to Sectional. Regionals , State ( Indiana has near the same square miles as Ohio but less than half the Wrestlers to bring together. )
Is there different Tournaments for Private and Publics

All Ohio can do is continue to tweak the length of their season and see what works best. Hard to compare State to State to many factors involved .
 
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Each Coach already has the power to shorten their season. Simply push the competitive start date of your team to a date that works for you and your team. Just because you 'can' start the first or second week of December does not mean you 'have' to start then. With the post-season dates essentially written in stone right now, we all can control the front-end of the season. Not sure why this is such a tough concept.
 
why does length of schedule bother people so bad.it should be your coach who decides on how he runs his schedule.the state sets the guidelines of when scheduling starts and ends.coach can have as many events he likes,club, in each week or month by schedule points.you have teams who wrestle,club, 1 dual or tri a week the month of december,club.other school will go 1 dual 1 tournament a week the month of december,club,.fix the scheduling according to your team,club . people contradict all the time on scheduling.shorten schedule.but lets do club, freestyle as soon as season is over till may or june.then 3 camps, club twice a week a few opens,club, and rinse and start over.oh but the season is to long.quit people.
 
My reason for shortening the season, isnt for the best kids, or even the kids that will do it year round.

Its for those fringe kids where practice everyday is a grind. Its hard. Competing is the fun part. The part we enjoy. Grinding kids in routine practice for this long has kids losing interest and honest its beating down their bodies. I Know the seaon has been this long for a long time but anyone who says that kids arent bigger, faster or stronger is just lying to themselves which means shoulders get torked more, and athletes hit the mat harder etc.

I worry about the long term health of the sport.

Yes i am probably the biggest supporter of Freestyle and Greco on this forum. So i do wish wrestling season ended mid february. Athletes took a month to 6 weeks off to rest and then started training freestyle. The issue with the current schedules is that there isnt a break for those kids wanting to compete.

I know in my area kids love freestyle and greco because its less practice its more relaxed enviroment. the "qualifying" tournaments are just about getting mat time, not your ranking or your seed at the next tournament.

Every match matters during a kids high school season. Its seeding for next tournament, or ranking etc.
 
t2p6win said:
why does length of schedule bother people so bad.it should be your coach who decides on how he runs his schedule.the state sets the guidelines of when scheduling starts and ends.coach can have as many events he likes,club, in each week or month by schedule points.you have teams who wrestle,club, 1 dual or tri a week the month of december,club.other school will go 1 dual 1 tournament a week the month of december,club,.fix the scheduling according to your team,club . people contradict all the time on scheduling.shorten schedule.but lets do club, freestyle as soon as season is over till may or june.then 3 camps, club twice a week a few opens,club, and rinse and start over.oh but the season is to long.quit people.
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i dont think the answer is less competition, very few athletes hate competing or even get hurt at tournaments. Most injuries and burn out happen in practice. Everyones answer if you control your schedule, schedule less matches, Thats why we do the sport. To step on the mat with someone from a different school. Id argue shorten the season and keep the same competition points maybe more.
 
keithcarter said:
Yes i am probably the biggest supporter of Freestyle and Greco on this forum.
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Slow your roll, Keith... ;)😅

Yankeefan33 wants a word with you.

And while I see your point and agree to an extent, I would say that there is a longer break for those kids that aren't making the district or state tournament. In my area, we start practicing FS/GR at the end of March or beginning of April, so those guys could realistically take a 3 to 4 week break.
 
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I'd prefer to have sectionals starting this weekend. Then we go from there. That's not an option currently with the state venue so there's nothing to be done about it.

I dont care on the start date and would have preferred to keep it the same next year...

In my experience, the fringe kids do not want to be there once track and baseball start.
 
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