soccerdad72
Well-known member
So it's a mistake when it's a public school, but always recruiting when it's a private school. Gotcha.
So it's a mistake when it's a public school, but always recruiting when it's a private school. Gotcha.
Actually it IS very easy to say about ANY school. Have you ever read the "transfer bylaws" of the OHSAA?Easy to say this for any of the private schools then too. "Mistakes" happen all the time.
You guys really confuse me. The situation at Hamilton was a mistake. The AD screwed up and he quit. I am telling you that private schools recruit/sell/ market their school all the time and definitely work in the grey area. One school in the area, hangs its hat on athletic success. It is necessary for their financial health that they produce high level athletes and WIN. I guarantee you that parents send their boys to that school with that expectation. Now, I am not judging. I get it and personally I think it would be cool if we had a Mater Dei or Saint Thomas Aquinas type school in SWO.So it's a mistake when it's a public school, but always recruiting when it's a private school. Gotcha.
What money is at stake?As much money is at stake it would be crazy for schools not to try and attract kids, public or private.
Where I live in the Youngstown area there are probably 20 different high schools within 20 minutes of my front door.
They'd be crazy not to 'recruit'
Doesn't money only follow if the transfer is to a public school or the original district is an EdChoice school? That's why there were districts bummed at not having state testing last year. It meant another year of giving away money by default...^^^^
roughly 6 grand per student. that's what's at stake
In case you didn't know money follows students when they open enroll
Let's say I got a kid that's a really good soccer player and I live in youngstown.
Let's say that kid also has 3 younger siblings
Because Youngstown city has no soccer team I decide to open enroll my kid to Austintown.
To make my life easier I just go ahead and open enroll all 4 of them to austintown
How much money follows each student when they open enroll? 6 grand?
So austintown just made 24 grand
recruiting is happening all the time and sports is a tiny, tiny part of that. it's recruiting huge amounts of regular students to bring in big money
you ever see the complex that austintown high school has? multiple gyms. 2 turf fields. probably one of the best high school baseball stadiums in the state.
your example of the columbus city schools balance sheet is an example of what happens to a city school system surrounded by schools recruiting their kids left and right. Edchoice and open enrollment has stripped some of the larger city school districts to the bone
so in a way what you did was help my argument
cheers
I don't think that is correct. If the school is open enrollment, I think the money follows. But a ton of school districts were Edchoice districts even ones that you would not suspect. The criteria was almost silly.Doesn't money only follow if the transfer is to a public school or the original district is an EdChoice school? That's why there were districts bummed at not having state testing last year. It meant another year of giving away money by default...
no lolDoesn't money only follow if the transfer is to a public school or the original district is an EdChoice school? That's why there were districts bummed at not having state testing last year. It meant another year of giving away money by default...
I've had this discussion with many of my fellow coaches in a variety of sports and I think what we're going to see in the next 5 years is a situation where the elite athletes in all sports attend one particular school (doesn't matter if it's private, public or otherwise) and those schools become more or less charter schools for sports. Down here in South Carolina we're already seeing this. There is a charter school in Charleston, one in Columbia and one in Rock Hill (south of Charlotte) that cater to high performing athletes by giving them the ability to do their classwork either in the AM or PM and commit the other half of their day to athletics. All 3 of these schools are in the lower classifications of the SCHSL and the one in Charleston has already proven to be a dominant player in sports like tennis, golf, swimming, etc.... with team sports like football, baseball, basketball and soccer following not too far behind.
In the short and long term future what we use to know to be varsity sports will become JV in terms of quality as you elite athletes spend their time at these sports charter school factories prepping themselves for the college game. More or less the IMG model will be the norm in every state in some way shape or form in the next 5-10 years.
In some sports high school already is JV
The academy model in Europe makes the most sense. That's what these schools you are talking about essentially are.
Thats what these kids/parents want but here in the states we've decided you have to have huge money to do that.
^^^^
roughly 6 grand per student. that's what's at stake
In case you didn't know money follows students when they open enroll
Let's say I got a kid that's a really good soccer player and I live in youngstown.
Let's say that kid also has 3 younger siblings
Because Youngstown city has no soccer team I decide to open enroll my kid to Austintown.
To make my life easier I just go ahead and open enroll all 4 of them to austintown
How much money follows each student when they open enroll? 6 grand?
So austintown just made 24 grand
recruiting is happening all the time and sports is a tiny, tiny part of that. it's recruiting huge amounts of regular students to bring in big money
you ever see the complex that austintown high school has? multiple gyms. 2 turf fields. probably one of the best high school baseball stadiums in the state.
your example of the columbus city schools balance sheet is an example of what happens to a city school system surrounded by schools recruiting their kids left and right. Edchoice and open enrollment has stripped some of the larger city school districts to the bone
so in a way what you did was help my argument
cheers
I've had this discussion with many of my fellow coaches in a variety of sports and I think what we're going to see in the next 5 years is a situation where the elite athletes in all sports attend one particular school (doesn't matter if it's private, public or otherwise) and those schools become more or less charter schools for sports. Down here in South Carolina we're already seeing this. There is a charter school in Charleston, one in Columbia and one in Rock Hill (south of Charlotte) that cater to high performing athletes by giving them the ability to do their classwork either in the AM or PM and commit the other half of their day to athletics. All 3 of these schools are in the lower classifications of the SCHSL and the one in Charleston has already proven to be a dominant player in sports like tennis, golf, swimming, etc.... with team sports like football, baseball, basketball and soccer following not too far behind.
In the short and long term future what we use to know to be varsity sports will become JV in terms of quality as you elite athletes spend their time at these sports charter school factories prepping themselves for the college game. More or less the IMG model will be the norm in every state in some way shape or form in the next 5-10 years.
no lol
that money follows all the way through as well
and it tends to slowly rise
if a kid started kindergarten this year and stayed through senior year that kid is worth about 100 grand
^^^^
roughly 6 grand per student. that's what's at stake
In case you didn't know money follows students when they open enroll
Let's say I got a kid that's a really good soccer player and I live in youngstown.
Let's say that kid also has 3 younger siblings
Because Youngstown city has no soccer team I decide to open enroll my kid to Austintown.
To make my life easier I just go ahead and open enroll all 4 of them to austintown
How much money follows each student when they open enroll? 6 grand?
So austintown just made 24 grand
recruiting is happening all the time and sports is a tiny, tiny part of that. it's recruiting huge amounts of regular students to bring in big money
you ever see the complex that austintown high school has? multiple gyms. 2 turf fields. probably one of the best high school baseball stadiums in the state.
your example of the columbus city schools balance sheet is an example of what happens to a city school system surrounded by schools recruiting their kids left and right. Edchoice and open enrollment has stripped some of the larger city school districts to the bone
so in a way what you did was help my argument
cheers
Austintown already had fixed costs in place to educate the students and likely excess capacity. Unless adding a student caused Austintown to add teaching resources or other fixed expenses adding a student brings little variable expenses to the equation. That's why schools with declining enrollment and/or open seats in their schools love open enrollment. Going from 20 to 22 kids per classroom doesn't change the cost structure at the school (teachers paid the same, same cost to heat the school, same cost to light the school, etc) and it brings additional tax money. Their cost per student goes down and their "revenue" increases.Austintown didn't make 24 grand Austintown just took on 24 grand in additional expenses.
unless you are saying that it costs less than 6 grand per student, and so the allocation should be cut per student.
Austintown already had fixed costs in place to educate the students and likely excess capacity. Unless adding a student caused Austintown to add teaching resources or other fixed expenses adding a student brings little variable expenses to the equation. That's why schools with declining enrollment and/or open seats in their schools love open enrollment. Going from 20 to 22 kids per classroom doesn't change the cost structure at the school (teachers paid the same, same cost to heat the school, same cost to light the school, etc) and it brings additional tax money. Their cost per student goes down and their "revenue" increases.
That's also why schools that are losing students to open enrollment. They lose tax revenue but their fixed costs stay the same and it now costs more per student.
Put it this way...If that was the case, how could the State of Ohio reduce allocation for a student from one school, to increase the allocation to another, when a student transfers?
you are talking nonsense.
by your logic the State would provide a fixed amount of money per school, and not adjust the allocation when a student transfers.
So what you are saying is that the minor leagues for the professional leagues will contract into specialty schools.
But what will that do to interscholastic competition?
it will kill it. which may be a good thing. save a TON of money and medical expenses for all the injuries, which get transferred to the parents employer paid healthcare insurance, thus imposing them on the rest of us.
Put it this way...
I am a superintendent of a district and say it costs me a million dollars to run my district. I can accommodate 1000 students with current resources but my enrollment is only 900. I could increase my enrollment by 100 students in the district for essentially the same cost basis. If those additional students are open enrolled...I get the extra state tax (what is it...$6k per student?) but my costs have essentially stayed the same. So that extra tax funding benefits the district gaining students. It still only costs me about a million dollars to operate my district but the tax funding I receive has gone up like $600k (based on 100 students at $6000 per student).
And negatively impacts the districts losing the students and the tax funding.
Does that explain it better?
Yes to your first question. The market has already created this want / to some need for elite athletic prep schools. This will continue. I don't see a situation where we revert back.
Interscholastic competition will exist but at a "intramural" level. That is to say you will still have school based teams but their level of competition will severely watered down due to your upper elite athletes moving on to "greener" pastures. In some situations School XYZ will become the de facto "charter school for soccer" where anyone who is anyone in that particular area of schools ends up open enrolling or transferring into. This will leave the surrounding schools to choose from what's left in the now shallow talent pool and in some extreme cases elimination of programs at schools. In the end club based sports will win out and local school boards will see a window to cut athletics from school budgets. Not get rid of them but severely cut.
We are headed towards a European / Japanese model in regards to athletics. Which I have no issue with as a teacher / coach but let's just pull the band aid off right now instead of kicking the can down the road and pretending like school based sports still matter.
I said as much in the sentence before what you bolded in my post.The error in your logic is boldfaced. It assumes that your district is operating under capacity. It assumes that you represented to your taxpayers that you needed $1,000,000 to operate your district when you only needed 90% of that. What did you do, to have a capacity of 1000 when you only needed 900? Are all districts defrauding the local taxpayers and all districts have 110% of needed capacity? So the taxpayers at large over the entire State are being overtaxed and school districts are playing a game of trying to steal students from each other? Really?
And, school districts are trying to steal elite athletes from each other for what purpose? Does any school district generate real revenue from gate receipts or a cash award for winning a tournament? ROFLMAO
The answer is no. The only people to benefit are self interested coaches trying to promote themselves to higher paying jobs somewhere else.
This is capitalism, people are motivated by money and all the "I'm doing it for the kids" is so much BS. Oh, I get it, all these coaches are actually Mother Teresa with a whistle hanging around their necks. None of them secretly wants to be the next Nick Saban.
Note : I DO recognize and value highly that great majority of teacher/coaches who consider themselves to be teachers first and coaches second.
Chuck Kyle comes to mind. has been teaching Shakespearian English for his entire career and considers himself to be a teacher/coach, not a professional coach.
I said as much in the sentence before what you bolded in my post.
No, the schools aren't necessarily defrauding anyone. But if it costs me $1 million to educate 900 students BUT we can actually service 1000 for roughly the same costs but I receive extra state funding....I improve my financial situation with each additional student utilizing my EXISTING staffing and resources. Teachers, janitors, administration, etc. aren't paid per student. You understand this right?
Your tangent about elite athletes is noted but I am talking about the broader use of open enrollment around the state. Just like with private schools the majority of the students switch for academic or other reasons (better/safer environment). We only hear about the elite athletes though because they are obviously more visible.
I am sorry but you're mostly wrong.Your entire premise is flawed in my opinion.
What's the point of 'improving my financial position' as a public school with no profit motive? Is improving my financial position going to result in a reduction in taxation or is it going to be stolen?
the idea is to spend every dollar every year. If the school district is operating at an annual deficit, that's just a signal that someone's not doing their job or that a tax levy is needed. someone didn't calculate how much revenue was needed, or revenue is being stolen, misused, etc.
The underlying premise: that one school district loses something financially by a student transferring out, and that the other school district gains something by a student transferring in: cannot be right. It cannot be right that a school district is put into a worse position financially, but having to service fewer students given that its local revenue is fixed and capped at a certain number and does not decrease when a student transfers out..
if a district's total local revenue was 6,000,000 for 100 students and 6,000,000 from the state, (12,000,000 for 100 students), then if it gained 100 students, it would only gain 6,000,000 from the State (local revenue would not increase) and therefore have 18,000,000 for 200 students, or only 9,000 for each student. for the next 100 students it would gain another $6,000,000 for a total of $24,000,000 for 300 students or $8,000 total revenue for each student. It would gain students, but reduce the percentage of local, fixed and capped revenue available for each student, for each student that transfers in.
that would apply for each transfer in, from the very first one.
It cannot be, that 200 students can be serviced for exactly the same amount of money as 100 students. If it could be; the State should not increase the revenue to the school district because a student transferred in.
It cannot be, that 101 students can be educated and provided the same level of services, for the same amount of money as 100.
right?