RECRUITING!!!!

HippyDippy

Member
Most kids that participate in high school sports do it because they love the game, love to compete, and want to be part of the team. Very few do so with the expectation of getting a college scholarship.

Are there a few that are looking for sports to be their ticket? Sure. But it's not the norm.

Like I said....you don't know what you're talking about.
Just go here ; http://yappi.com/forum/index.php?threads/2021-Massillon-football.336885/page-10

this is how Massillon justifies it's "program"

This is the prototype of how to recruit all the scrubs : hang that college scholarship carrot out there.


it's also how they recruit from all of Stark County. draw them in to "combines" and "college days"

as to why they do it? gawd only knows. oh, they also perpetrate the lie that "the program" "generates revenue" which is complete nonsense, if the program had to generate revenue it would no longer even exist: the program barely covered the coach wife salary (let alone the new turf, upgrade to walkways and last year new bleacher seating in grandstands) in the last year of pre covid full attendance due to the horrible opponents and 4 away games.

but the dopes down there still go around telling each other that the program generates real revenue. LOL

yeah maybe for the contractor cronies getting the construction contracts it generates revenue but not for the school district it doesn't.

that and all the gambling schemes sponsored by not for profits, generates revenue but not for the school district.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Not many people would agree that you blew up anything.

what you did, was simply to reiterate your simplistic thinking making generalized statements reflecting the "conventional wisdom"

which is usually unwisdom.
Lots of words without saying anything.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
The reason I provided an audit of Austintown which was the example you presented and imagined that it had a "static" expense structure, was to show the variance between 2019 and 2020, but then realizing that 2020 is a bad year for comparison due to Covid19 chaos, thought it better to compare 2018 to 2019 and found huge difference in expenses.
View attachment 14831


Without completely analyzing the data, it's impossible offer an opinion as to what happened of course, and if one really wanted to deep dive it, it would take weeks to analyze the data over time which analysis has no benefit to me, just to prove you to be a simpleton.

The bottom line is that no simplistic statement about school district finances in Ohio can be accurate.View attachment 14832
View attachment 14833
Austintown was someone's example already being discussed. I just kept it going. I don't know anything about this district per se but based on the financials you posted they had about an $18m increase in expenses from 2018 to 2019. Half of that was in regular instruction. Not sure why so maybe someone more familiar with the district can chime in. But a $9m increase in instruction is more than a few open enrollment students.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Just go here ; http://yappi.com/forum/index.php?threads/2021-Massillon-football.336885/page-10

this is how Massillon justifies it's "program"

This is the prototype of how to recruit all the scrubs : hang that college scholarship carrot out there.


it's also how they recruit from all of Stark County. draw them in to "combines" and "college days"

as to why they do it? gawd only knows. oh, they also perpetrate the lie that "the program" "generates revenue" which is complete nonsense, if the program had to generate revenue it would no longer even exist: the program barely covered the coach wife salary (let alone the new turf, upgrade to walkways and last year new bleacher seating in grandstands) in the last year of pre covid full attendance due to the horrible opponents and 4 away games.

but the dopes down there still go around telling each other that the program generates real revenue. LOL

yeah maybe for the contractor cronies getting the construction contracts it generates revenue but not for the school district it doesn't.

that and all the gambling schemes sponsored by not for profits, generates revenue but not for the school district.
Solid rant about Massillon but everyone knows they are an outlier in many different ways and shouldn't be the example you use to paint all open enrollment schools the same.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
The reason I provided an audit of Austintown which was the example you presented and imagined that it had a "static" expense structure, was to show the variance between 2019 and 2020, but then realizing that 2020 is a bad year for comparison due to Covid19 chaos, thought it better to compare 2018 to 2019 and found huge difference in expenses.
View attachment 14831


Without completely analyzing the data, it's impossible offer an opinion as to what happened of course, and if one really wanted to deep dive it, it would take weeks to analyze the data over time which analysis has no benefit to me, just to prove you to be a simpleton.

The bottom line is that no simplistic statement about school district finances in Ohio can be accurate.View attachment 14832
View attachment 14833
Here is an article that might help you. It's a little old but not much has changed really.

 

HippyDippy

Member
Solid rant about Massillon but everyone knows they are an outlier in many different ways and shouldn't be the example you use to paint all open enrollment schools the same.
I'm not painting any open enrollment public school anything.

I am illustrating my point about recruiting students to bolster a public school's "athletic program" be it one program or the other --- because it's silly.

there is no benefit to any public school if it "wins" an OHSAA championship. there is no economic or financial benefit to the school district, and that's why it's STUPID. the ONLY "rationale" for recruiting a kid to an "elite" PUBLIC SCHOOL "athletic program" is that the parents of the kid are convinced that the kid will get "more looks from college recruiters" and DON'T try to tell me that is isn't true. DON'T make me laugh.

Private schools are different. Kid's parents send their kids to those schools for the better education they get there. Those kids are actually PREPARED for a college environment. They aren't going to spend a year in remedial courses..

The funding system in Ohio is a huge complex mess. I don't think anyone can make a simplistic statement about it that is valid.


That is ALL I am saying : the "conventional wisdom" that YOU proclaim as gospel truth: that a public high school benefits financially by open enrollment and that it justifies recruiting athletes.

IS SIMPLISTIC BULL SHITE.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
I'm not painting any open enrollment public school anything.

I am illustrating my point about recruiting students to bolster a public school's "athletic program" be it one program or the other --- because it's silly.

there is no benefit to any public school if it "wins" an OHSAA championship. there is no economic or financial benefit to the school district, and that's why it's STUPID. the ONLY "rationale" for recruiting a kid to an "elite" PUBLIC SCHOOL "athletic program" is that the parents of the kid are convinced that the kid will get "more looks from college recruiters" and DON'T try to tell me that is isn't true. DON'T make me laugh.

Private schools are different. Kid's parents send their kids to those schools for the better education they get there. Those kids are actually PREPARED for a college environment. They aren't going to spend a year in remedial courses..

The funding system in Ohio is a huge complex mess. I don't think anyone can make a simplistic statement about it that is valid.


That is ALL I am saying : the "conventional wisdom" that YOU proclaim as gospel truth: that a public high school benefits financially by open enrollment and that it justifies recruiting athletes.

IS SIMPLISTIC BULL SHITE.
You're all over the place.

Bottom line...schools receive a financial benefit due to open enrollment if they don't add headcount to support it.
 
Most kids that participate in high school sports do it because they love the game, love to compete, and want to be part of the team. Very few do so with the expectation of getting a college scholarship.

Are there a few that are looking for sports to be their ticket? Sure. But it's not the norm.

Like I said....you don't know what you're talking about.
Just came here to address this, sorry, this is incorrect.

As a former college coach, high school athletics are a driving force in the college scholarship mentality. Sure, it is different based on different sports, but for kids who do not have great club around, HS soccer is extremely important for them -- whether that is individually OR for a coach to be able to see that player (film, live, etc.).

Yes, there are other avenues (AAU, club, etc.) that may be bigger driving forces for the college scholarship "carrot" - no one is denying that. There are millions more kids in HS athletics than there are in club sports for college recruiting purposes.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Just came here to address this, sorry, this is incorrect.

As a former college coach, high school athletics are a driving force in the college scholarship mentality. Sure, it is different based on different sports, but for kids who do not have great club around, HS soccer is extremely important for them -- whether that is individually OR for a coach to be able to see that player (film, live, etc.).

Yes, there are other avenues (AAU, club, etc.) that may be bigger driving forces for the college scholarship "carrot" - no one is denying that. There are millions more kids in HS athletics than there are in club sports for college recruiting purposes.
Most kids aren't expecting full rides. Many aren't even interested in playing at the next level. Most are content on hanging up their cleats, bats, shoes, etc when they graduate HS.

Yes, there are some that really want to play at the next level and they will chase the dream. But it is far from the majority of kids that play HS sports.
 

HippyDippy

Member
Most kids aren't expecting full rides. Many aren't even interested in playing at the next level. Most are content on hanging up their cleats, bats, shoes, etc when they graduate HS.

Yes, there are some that really want to play at the next level and they will chase the dream. But it is far from the majority of kids that play HS sports.
Again, the recruitment into any sport occurs early: 8th, 9th grade, when it is easy to dangle to potential of a full ride or even some financial aid to a kid.

Once recruited into the sport, the kid, even though it is clear by his 11th grade year that he is a scrub, he is encouraged to stick with it.

But the carrot was hung out there for him when in 7th, 8th, or 9th grade because if the scrubs all quit and pursue more beneficial avenues, there is nobody for the 1st teamers to practice against.

You can't have a high school team if all you have on the practice field is D1 potential talent.

We all know how easy it is to mislead adolescent boys. I don't think you're in a position to opine on whether the quantity of misled boys is a few, some, many, or most, at any single point in time in the process. By the time they get to senior year, they are committed and locked in.
 

HippyDippy

Member
Just came here to address this, sorry, this is incorrect.

As a former college coach, high school athletics are a driving force in the college scholarship mentality. Sure, it is different based on different sports, but for kids who do not have great club around, HS soccer is extremely important for them -- whether that is individually OR for a coach to be able to see that player (film, live, etc.).

Yes, there are other avenues (AAU, club, etc.) that may be bigger driving forces for the college scholarship "carrot" - no one is denying that. There are millions more kids in HS athletics than there are in club sports for college recruiting purposes.
But I think you inverted your statement which should read:

"As a former college coach, the college scholarship mentality is a major driving force in recruiting kids PARENTS to "encourage" their kids, to participate in high school interscholastic athletics"

am I correct?
 
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winbypin

Well-known member
Again, the recruitment into any sport occurs early: 8th, 9th grade, when it is easy to dangle to potential of a full ride or even some financial aid to a kid.

Once recruited into the sport, the kid, even though it is clear by his 11th grade year that he is a scrub, he is encouraged to stick with it.

But the carrot was hung out there for him when in 7th, 8th, or 9th grade because if the scrubs all quit and pursue more beneficial avenues, there is nobody for the 1st teamers to practice against.

You can't have a high school team if all you have on the practice field is D1 potential talent.

We all know how easy it is to mislead adolescent boys. I don't think you're in a position to opine on whether the quantity of misled boys is a few, some, many, or most, at any single point in time in the process. By the time they get to senior year, they are committed and locked in.
All you have to do is look at the rosters of teams and see how many aren't playing on a regular basis to realize they aren't playing beyond high school....in any sport. But they are still putting in the time and energy to be practice partners for the starters. They aren't doing this because they think they will play in college....they are doing it because they want to.
 

HippyDippy

Member
All you have to do is look at the rosters of teams and see how many aren't playing on a regular basis to realize they aren't playing beyond high school....in any sport. But they are still putting in the time and energy to be practice partners for the starters. They aren't doing this because they think they will play in college....they are doing it because they want to.
Again, by the time they get to 11th or 12th they are committed and into the camaraderie and "team/school spirit" aspects.

The decision to go down that road is made by the parents very early on: they put them in midget football or whatever the sport is when they're 10, 11 years old.

here: https://twitter.com/OhioTigers

these guys are trying to pull them in as early as age 6. trying to keep them from playing FIFA maybe?


1614021762642.png
 
Most kids aren't expecting full rides. Many aren't even interested in playing at the next level. Most are content on hanging up their cleats, bats, shoes, etc when they graduate HS.

Yes, there are some that really want to play at the next level and they will chase the dream. But it is far from the majority of kids that play HS sports.
Look, I'm not going to be continuing this chasing a moving target.

High school athletics are a major component to college recruiting and college athletics. Simple as that.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Look, I'm not going to be continuing this chasing a moving target.

High school athletics are a major component to college recruiting and college athletics. Simple as that.
I am not moving a target. What you said is true. Also true that 90+% of HS athletes aren't being recruited or are deserving to be recruited. Both things can be correct at the same time, no? Not every HS athlete is using HS to be recruited to college.

So when you were involved with college recruiting assuming in soccer and you watched a HS game....you saw 1 or 2 kids on a side that might interest you. A handful of schools had more talent I know. The other 15 or so weren't of interest. Probably 11 of them knew that and didn't care that you were there. They just played.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Again, by the time they get to 11th or 12th they are committed and into the camaraderie and "team/school spirit" aspects.

The decision to go down that road is made by the parents very early on: they put them in midget football or whatever the sport is when they're 10, 11 years old.

here: https://twitter.com/OhioTigers

these guys are trying to pull them in as early as age 6. trying to keep them from playing FIFA maybe?


View attachment 14865
Not every parent that signs their kids up for youth sports or sports camps think their kid will play in college. I am sure many of them are hopeful but really just want them to get a leg up on their peers when they get to HS. Of course they are also burning their kids out too.

I like the camp flyers. Youth sports have become quite the money grab haven't they?
 

HippyDippy

Member
Look, I'm not going to be continuing this chasing a moving target.

High school athletics are a major component to college recruiting and college athletics. Simple as that.
yah that's what he's about. moving goalposts around and changing the subject. typical..

HS athletics are the taxpayer funded talent recruitment and development pool (minor leagues) for NCAA.

NCAA athletics are the taxpayer funded talent recruitment and development pool (minor leagues) for the professional leagues.

The Baseball minors are now dwindling and disappearing: the NCAA will be all there is left after a while. (big advantage in being taxpayer funded no need to turn a profit)

I had a guy say that the colleges and universities are the talent recruitment and development pool for all corporations.

while there's a kernel of truth in that: the energy development industry or any number of other industries are quite a bit different from the entertainment industry. maybe I'm wrong.

but even if he is 100% correct, then participating in interscholastic sports, especially full contact tackle football, at high school level (minors) is essentially uncompensated employment in a hazardous occupation and banned by Ohio Labor Law.

1614030619774.png
 

HippyDippy

Member
Not every parent that signs their kids up for youth sports or sports camps think their kid will play in college. I am sure many of them are hopeful but really just want them to get a leg up on their peers when they get to HS. Of course they are also burning their kids out too.

I like the camp flyers. Youth sports have become quite the money grab haven't they?
"Not Every"

Nothing is ever, EVERY.

The camp flyers are only the tip of the iceberg: here is the real game: the use of not for profit charitable law to operate gambling schemes.

1614030746396.png


here is the purported purpose of the 501(c)(3)

1614030891673.png

its all about the kids, they say.

LOL
 

winbypin

Well-known member
yah that's what he's about. moving goalposts around and changing the subject. typical..

HS athletics are the taxpayer funded talent recruitment and development pool (minor leagues) for NCAA.

NCAA athletics are the taxpayer funded talent recruitment and development pool (minor leagues) for the professional leagues.

The Baseball minors are now dwindling and disappearing: the NCAA will be all there is left after a while. (big advantage in being taxpayer funded no need to turn a profit)

I had a guy say that the colleges and universities are the talent recruitment and development pool for all corporations.

while there's a kernel of truth in that: the energy development industry or any number of other industries are quite a bit different from the entertainment industry. maybe I'm wrong.

but even if he is 100% correct, then participating in interscholastic sports, especially full contact tackle football, at high school level (minors) is essentially uncompensated employment in a hazardous occupation and banned by Ohio Labor Law.

View attachment 14875
HS football players are not uncompensated employees. Just stop.
 

HippyDippy

Member
HS football players are not uncompensated employees. Just stop.
I don't see why they aren't

they are the talent being sold and they're performing the exact same job tasks as an NFL performer.

the media and all who are broadcasting the entertainment product are like parasites feeding on the host.

the schools pay all the expenses for putting the product together, but get nothing of the media proceeds. nada.

but if playing in the NFL is labor and employment, so is performing the same tasks on the same sized field with the same ball wearing the same protective equipment and at the same risk of injury or death.

the ONLY difference is, in fact that they are uncompensated, enticed to perform without compensation for a vague indistinct non promise of possible future benefits,

And what's worse, if some bonehead coach makes a bonehead call and racks an elite athlete up and ruins his future potential with a catastrophic injury the poor kid just gets thrown in the trash , the medical costs thrown on his parents and he has no cause of action to sue.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
I don't see why they aren't

they are the talent being sold and they're performing the exact same job tasks as an NFL performer.

the media and all who are broadcasting the entertainment product are like parasites feeding on the host.

the schools pay all the expenses for putting the product together, but get nothing of the media proceeds. nada.

but if playing in the NFL is labor and employment, so is performing the same tasks on the same sized field with the same ball wearing the same protective equipment and at the same risk of injury or death.

the ONLY difference is, in fact that they are uncompensated, enticed to perform without compensation for a vague indistinct non promise of possible future benefits,

And what's worse, if some bonehead coach makes a bonehead call and racks an elite athlete up and ruins his future potential with a catastrophic injury the poor kid just gets thrown in the trash , the medical costs thrown on his parents and he has no cause of action to sue.
Not being compensated is the key distinction. End of story.
 

HippyDippy

Member
They aren't working...they are playing a game.
The NFL performers have a labor union and what they do is recognized as labor.

Their activities and occupation is governed by US labor law and under the NRLB

the only difference between what high school performers do and what NFL performers do is that the high school kids are duped into doing it for free.

going to football practice is not playing a game. it is hard work, and carries certain risk. working out over the off season is not playing a game, it is hard physical labor.

true or not true?
 

winbypin

Well-known member
The NFL performers have a labor union and what they do is recognized as labor.

Their activities and occupation is governed by US labor law and under the NRLB

the only difference between what high school performers do and what NFL performers do is that the high school kids are duped into doing it for free.

going to football practice is not playing a game. it is hard work, and carries certain risk. working out over the off season is not playing a game, it is hard physical labor.

true or not true?
You can't be serious with this?
 

HippyDippy

Member
You can't be serious with this?
What are you talking about?

Refute the facts. Tell everyone where my reasoning is wrong.

the entertainment value is being sold by media all over the state.

kids die. kids are seriously injured and have brain injuries.

you live in a fantasy land.

the medical treatments for injuries are transferred out to the public, and the injured kid is tossed into the trash heap.

sorry about your luck, kid.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
What are you talking about?

Refute the facts. Tell everyone where my reasoning is wrong.

the entertainment value is being sold by media all over the state.

kids die. kids are seriously injured and have brain injuries.

you live in a fantasy land.

the medical treatments for injuries are transferred out to the public, and the injured kid is tossed into the trash heap.

sorry about your luck, kid.
You're comparing the NFL to HS football. And then trying to say HS football is breaking minor labor laws.

NFL players get paid. HS players do not. Therefore the labor laws don't apply. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.

Very few football players die playing or practicing football. More kids die in car accidents each year by a very wide margin. Could it happen? Sure but it's very rare.

People get injured? Yep. It can happen. Life is not without risk. 🤷‍♂️
 

HippyDippy

Member
You're comparing the NFL to HS football. And then trying to say HS football is breaking minor labor laws.

NFL players get paid. HS players do not. Therefore the labor laws don't apply. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.

Very few football players die playing or practicing football. More kids die in car accidents each year by a very wide margin. Could it happen? Sure but it's very rare.

People get injured? Yep. It can happen. Life is not without risk. 🤷‍♂️

OMG just stop it. the media feasts on their blood, sweat and tears and there is no return to them, nor to the school districts who foot the entire bill.

the only thing perpetuating the entire scheme is politics:

the public is hooked on the cheap entertainment. I'll tell you what the Treasurer of the Switzerland of Ohio School district told me about why there are 5 tiny high schools spread around the district: it's because the residents wouldn't approve a construction levy unless they all got to keep their football teams, such as Beallsville. https://www.theintelligencer.net/news/community/2015/04/group-sues-over-beallsville-school-closing/

and I did *not* ever assert that hs football is violating labor laws. I said if labor laws were applied, hs football would be classified as a hazardous occupation, detrimental to the health and well being of the performers.

concussions abound, and so do injuries to all appendages.

However the data on injuries and medical costs is all hidden from the public, which is a total disgrace.
 
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winbypin

Well-known member
OMG just stop it. the media feasts on their blood, sweat and tears and there is no return to them, nor to the school districts who foot the entire bill.

the only thing perpetuating the entire scheme is politics:

the public is hooked on the cheap entertainment. I'll tell you what the Treasurer of the Switzerland of Ohio School district told me about why there are 5 tiny high schools spread around the district: it's because the residents wouldn't approve a construction levy unless they all got to keep their football teams, such as Beallsville. https://www.theintelligencer.net/news/community/2015/04/group-sues-over-beallsville-school-closing/

and I did *not* ever assert that hs football is violating labor laws. I said if labor laws were applied, hs football would be classified as a hazardous occupation, detrimental to the health and well being of the performers.

concussions abound, and so do injuries to all appendages.

However the data on injuries and medical costs is all hidden from the public, which is a total disgrace.
Just curious...where were you on January 6, 2021?
 

HippyDippy

Member
Just curious...where were you on January 6, 2021?
It is irrelevant where I was on January 6 2021.

the data on injuries suffered in high school football by minors is kept a big secret and it's a disgrace.

and I mean a total disgrace. agree or disagree ?
 
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