Undefeated Gibsonburg Could Miss OHSAA Football Playoffs...See Why

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the regional concept in football is designed with the intention of containing travel. My understanding is that OHSAA is providing some reimbursement to teams that have to travel for playoff games (whether it's one team per game in the first round or both teams in subsequent games) -- and that there is a mileage component involved.

in virtually every other sport than football, playoffs start at a district level with each district sending a certain number of teams to regional play. before each season, the district champions are allocated into pre-set regions with some semblance of travel containment intended, since OHSAA is reimbursing teams that qualify to regional play for travel.

I'm sure if they could find a way that was reasonably fair, which better contained travel, OHSAA would do it since it helps contain costs.
 
The state up north that designs it so any team with a minimun number of wins is guarenteed, just first rounded what could have reasonably been a state final, Saline against Belleville.

Michigan

smh
 
If the member schools were willing to give up travel expenses the board of directors would probably jump at the chance to just go top 32. If Gibsonburg feels so screwed over they can push for a referendum to be voted on. Trust me the teams that qualify every year love the travel stipend. Athletic Directors secretly are giddy to be on the road vs hosting because of the additional revenue in round one.
 
Take the top 32 teams in a division. Grab a map of Ohio. Pinpoint where each team is located on the the map. Draw 2 lines that split the division into 4 equal regions and boom. You have your playoff with the 32 most deserving teams and with not too much travel.
 
If that's the reasoning then just hand the trophies to the teams with the most harbins after ten weeks and be done with it.

Granting that "deserving" is highly open to personal definitions, there's not enough cross-regional scheduling to presume someone from one corner of the state is more deserving than one from another, based upon harbins. Besides that point, with the configuration of the state, it's not likely quadrants formed by two lines would be the most efficient regional divide.
 
eastisbest said:
If that's the reasoning then just hand the trophies to the teams with the most harbins after ten weeks and be done with it.

Granting that "deserving" is highly open to personal definitions, there's not enough cross-regional scheduling to presume someone from one corner of the state is more deserving than one from another, based upon harbins. Besides that point, with the configuration of the state, it's not likely quadrants formed by two lines would be the most efficient regional divide.
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the 32 most deserving teams are in most cases the 32 with the most harbins.. and the team with the most points doesn’t always win the title.. so no point in handing the trophy to the one with the most.

i agree with you about regions, can’t just draw up lines.
 
ghsknightsfan said:
the 32 most deserving teams are in most cases the 32 with the most harbins.. and the team with the most points doesn’t always win the title.. so no point in handing the trophy to the one with the most.
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Your second sentence contradicts the reasoning of your first no? If you can't use harbins to determine the first, how can you use them any more reliably to determine the 32nd and 33rd? You can't. Particularly when there are no common references. It's either all-in or live with the compromise. Generating revenue and keeping down costs is more important to the survival of high school sports than trying to do the impossible, predict which 32 would survive an all-in (most "deserving")
 
tom_hsfootball_fan said:
In 2001, when Newcomerstown got left out, their opponents totalled 30 wins. Currently, Gibsonburg's opponents have 29. They lie 10th and the last spots all have teams that control their own destiny... i.e. win and you're in... looking at them. Gibsonburg needs at least one of those teams to lose.

What does it matter anyway? Do you really think that they will go deep into the playoffs after a cupcake schedule? Very unlikely.
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Nobody has said anything about how far Gibsonburg will go in the playoffs. We are simply saying that they should be in the playoffs. Please tell us why Carey (4-5, 7.9778) and Norwayne (4-5, 8.9333) are more deserving of a playoff spot than Gibsonburg (9-0, 13.2166).
 
InTheDarke said:
To be clear, I've been a fan of Top 32 in well before this Gibsonburg scenario. I just think there's a logical way to go about it. I'm sure there's plusses and minuses, just as there is with it the way it is now.
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I started this thread back in 2015:

yappi.com

all-state playoff system

It has long been a pet causes of mine that OHSAA should simply get rid of the football regions and simply take the top 32 teams in each division. As the state finals approach next week, it's a discussion that again is worth considering. Ultimately, it partially comes down to the question: how...
yappi.com yappi.com
 
Mighty MAC said:
Coldwater and Anna just missed being D5. Marion Local is barely D7 and Minster is barely D6. Not sure what OHSAA was competitively balancing. Lots of missed opportunities to do so. They hurt everyone- including the MAC conference IMO. There are kids working their butts off in all these programs and it will be for not in some of these regions for post season. There is no balance putting the majority of the MAC conference in the same division and region.
Why should fear / or lack of competition mean the balance is placing all the teams together? MAC teams don't know how good or not good they are if all they get to play is their conference teams post season. Who else does this? Other teams in other areas find out how good or not good they are playing competitive games and not blow outs.
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If they got rid of the regions, MAC teams would be playing other teams from all over the state in the playoffs. It would likely force all parts of the state to take their football up.
 
Hammerdrill said:
No one did anything to the region. It is that way in every sport. They need to play better schools pre conference. One of my kids teams went 9-1 one year, and didn't make it. Their point total would have had them in at 8th in every year prior or since. It's just the way it goes. Our preconference that year was crap.
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Please tell us why Carey (4-5, 7.9778) and Norwayne (4-5, 8.9333) do not need to "play better schools" while Gibsonburg (9-0, 13.2166) does need to.
 
eastisbest said:
Your second sentence contradicts the reasoning of your first no? If you can't use harbins to determine the first, how can you use them any more reliably to determine the 32nd and 33rd? You can't. Particularly when there are no common references. It's either all-in or live with the compromise. Generating revenue and keeping down costs is more important to the survival of high school sports than trying to do the impossible, predict which 32 would survive an all-in (most "deserving")
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it’s impossible to select the best 32 but harbins give you the 32 most deserving.. and i agree. but that system is the best of both worlds
 
Is there another reason for regions that we are all missing here?
Seems to me that schools in less populated regions of the state have fewer scheduling opportunities than others (especially in some divisions). If many of the schools in that region face the same issue, they all can afford to play local. If they have to compete with schools across the state, would that force them into a much bigger footprint for their scheduling?
 
queencitybuckeye said:
None of them have a prayer of winning the state title, which is THE stated purpose of the Harbin system.
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The purpose of the points system should be to get the top 32 teams in the state into as competitive as possible statewide tournament. When multiple teams across each division are left out and many others are let in as a result of regional alignment that doesn’t produce the best matchups.
 
These are all good points but again, we all know the Harbin system won’t be changing anytime soon and that’s just the reality of it.
 
algernonsidney said:
Please tell us why Carey (4-5, 7.9778) and Norwayne (4-5, 8.9333) do not need to "play better schools" while Gibsonburg (9-0, 13.2166) does need to.
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You will find such issues in every region. If you want to make the playoffs in your region, it is a tougher road.
 
Regions are not going away; when D1 went to 2 with the top 16 making the playoffs, schools didn't like it and they went back to 4 regions.
Some regions are stronger than others, been that way since the beginning. The Harbins are not subjective; you know the rules going in, schedule wisely and win.
 
I have few complaints with the Harbin system. It is certainly better than the point system that West Virginia has.

If there is anything I would change with the Harbin system, I would have something which accounts for who has beaten you. Under the current system, a loss to a 10-0 team counts the same as a loss to a 1-9 team.

Of course, complexity just creates more potential for controversy.
 
^^^
By the same token, should there be something that would account for who you have beaten? Is beating a 0-9 team the same as beating a 4-5 team? Oh wait, that is covered by Harbins.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
The 8 teams in the playoff spots currently ALL have records of 8-1. Gibsonburg is in 10th place at 9-0. I am sure there have been MANY, MANY seasons where teams MISS the playoffs with records MORE than one game better than AT LEAST than just ONE team that made the playoffs, let alone ALL of them. People are focused on Gibsonburg because of that big "0" in the loss column. If they had a loss and the 8 current Regional leaders had 2 losses each, I bet this wouldn't even be a thread.

Here are the WL records of the teams Gibsonburg has defeated in chronological order. 6-3, 0-9, 5-4, 4-4, 0-9. 4-5, 0-9, 4-4, 2-7.
They have defeated 3 winless teams. 2 teams with winning records and 2 teams at .500. Other two victories are over a 4-5 and a 2-7 team. Not a very impressive or imposing lineup. Best team they defeated is 6-3. I understand this weak lineup is NOT necessarily their own fault, when they scheduled their lineup for this season, but regardless, they didn't exactly face Murderer's Row, just the same way Newcomerstown didn't when they missed the 2001 (I believe) playoffs at 10-0-0. Give either team a decent schedule and probably neither goes 10-0-0.

As I posted earlier, I hope Gibsonburg makes it in and wish them GL in their season finale with a 5-4 team. But I sure don't think it's some major tragedy or miscarriage of justice, if they don't make the field. I don't think the field is going to be missing a likely contender for the State Title and the Harbin System is to identify the teams most deserving of a spot in the playoff field. (It does an outstanding job of that too, IMHO.)

Re: Carey and Norwayne, The OHSAA wants a Regional System to make sure teams from all around the State get a shot at a State Title. Do I think Carey and Norwayne should be in? I do not. I think the problem is that too many teams are in the playoffs now and would restrict it to the top four in each Region. I think there are too many teams that can't make any kind of case for being the State's best team allowed in the playoffs. I am in favor of an elite field with only teams that can make such a case, even a weak one. (I am a minority of one person in this regard on Yappi, I do know that.)
 
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Cali_Eagle said:
People are focused on Gibsonburg because of that big "0" in the loss column. If they had a loss and the 8 current Regional leaders had 2 losses each, I bet this wouldn't even be a thread.
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We probably would not be. I am kind of hoping they lose this Friday.

: Carey and Norwayne, The OHSAA wants a Regional System to make sure teams from all around the State get a shot at a State Title. Do I think Carey and Norwayne should be in? I do not. I think the problem is that too many teams are in the playoffs now and would restrict it to the top four in each Region. I think there are too many teams that can't make any kind of case for being the State's best team allowed in the playoffs. I am in favor of an elite field with only teams that can make such a case, even a weak one. (I am a minority of one person in this regard on Yappi, I do know that.)
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Several teams have won state titles, even though they played their first game on the road. You would be disqualifying them as well as other undefeated teams. It was absolutely criminal the number of undefeated teams who missed the playoffs before the expansion to 32 in 1999.

I do think it was ridiculous to add the seventh division.
 
serpico said:
You actually believe the OHSAA put Gibsonburg into this region thinking they would go 10-0 and this would be the best way to screw them out of a playoff birth?

But since you’ve got your tinfoil hat on, consider the amount of game-playing that could take place if the OHSAA would use the top 32 teams and then break them into regions right before the playoffs. Can you imagine the gerrymandering that could occur?
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I have said that they should be seeded 1 to 32 and bracketed accordingly.
 
CCHS93 said:
Second, I think its kind of the way the NCAA bball tournament used to be many decades ago. There are 4 regions in the tournament. It used to be the top teams in a particular area of the country would be seeded there. So we could get a good idea of where the best basketball was played: the east, the west, the southeast, or the midwest. The NCAA tourney has shifted from that in the last 20-30 years. But for Ohio high schook football, perhaps the OHSAA wants teams from all over. They dont want the GCL
Not saying its my opinion or that its right or wrong. Im surmising that is one of the reasons we have the region system in place now.
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In some respects, OHSAA doesn't have much choice. Some parts of the state don't have a lot of schools.

It has generally been a rule with the region numbering:

1 Northeast
2 Northwest
3 Southeast
4 Southwest

In two cases, such divisions have been totally blown out of the water. It is 1 Northeast, 2 North Central, 3 Northwest, and 4 Southwest.


Why would it be a problem if Cincinnati Moeller and Cincinnati Saint Xavier play for a state title? Why would it be a problem it the final is Saint Ignatius playing Saint Edward?

I looked up all of West Virginia title games.There were five that featured teams from the same county.

Maybe the people who designed the playoffs just wanted to follow the lead of the phone company. For over 40 years, Ohio was divided into 216 Northeast, 419 Northwest, 614 Southeast, and 513 Southwest. I wonder if that is how it was done?
 
Scheduling better sometimes comes back to bite you square in the rear end. See Winton Woods. But when it's all said and done, I think there's going to be a small number of 9-1 teams not making it, as well. One fact that comes up personally, is that when Greenville qualified back in 1992, when only 4 teams per region got in, is that they made it at 7-3. This year, they look to match that record, and it doesn't appear they'll make top 8. Still, in general I don't have any real issue with the Harbins.
 
InTheDarke said:
Scheduling better sometimes comes back to bite you square in the rear end. See Winton Woods. But when it's all said and done, I think there's going to be a small number of 9-1 teams not making it, as well. One fact that comes up personally, is that when Greenville qualified back in 1992, when only 4 teams per region got in, is that they made it at 7-3. This year, they look to match that record, and it doesn't appear they'll make top 8. Still, in general I don't have any real issue with the Harbins.
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If top 32 made it in then why be in a conference? I could see teams electing to go it alone to schedule wins and Harbins knowing you might have to beat out a team on the other half of the State.
 
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