Undefeated Gibsonburg Could Miss OHSAA Football Playoffs...See Why

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Cali_Eagle

Active member
Here is the problem with the system you describe. It makes it more imperative to schedule games against teams you know you are going to beat. It would not foster more freedom to schedule games against tougher opponents, it would make it more important to not schedule games against teams that you will lose against. Of course this would only apply to those schools just trying to get into the Playoffs. For those who are trying to make a deep run, they are more concerned with preparing for the deep run, so they will schedule tougher opponents to make them better.

Just my 2 cents
Under my system, (see link above in an earlier post) what would hurt you BADLY is losing to a very poor team. The kind of team you should beat routinely, with Great ease, and should have no fear whatsoever of playing. If you can't beat the bad teams under my idea (reverse Harbin points deducted for losses) you sure can't beat the good ones anyway, and are NO THREAT at all to win the State or even the Regional title. Lose to an undefeated team like Mentor or even Gibsonburg and the loss would only hurt you on the first level. No second level points lost unless that team went on to lose a game.

If you schedule teams you KNOW you are going to beat, you will end up with a schedule like Gibsonburg's (I know they didn't schedule that way on purpose, but still.... it wound up being a steady diet of cupcakes for them [this season anyway] nonetheless...) and have a Harbin total that won't get you in the playoffs at all. You have to take your chances, play at least decent to good teams and defeat them. My system penalizes all losses but it penalizes losses to very good teams only slightly and losses to very bad teams heavily. It is the EXACT opposite of how WINNING is treated under the Harbin System. Which currently is: beat a good or excellent team get a big jackpot of points. Beat a winless team get next to nothing. But, right now, a loss to 9-0 Mentor is treated exactly like a loss to Lyndhurst Brush which is 0-9 at this writing. It should be a slight penalty for losing to Mentor and a large one for losing to Brush in this season.

Why aren't ALL GAMES considered under a rating formula? They sure are in college football, game announcers are always bleating about who a team lost to and can you sort of discount a college powers loss because it came against a good team. Look at OSU the last two years, people penalized them because the losses to Iowa and Purdue weren't considered to be against good enough teams. I think a good rating system should consider ALL games and it's one of two major flaws I think the Harbin System has. This one is easily corrected.

The other major flaw is the Harbin Cow phenomenon and that one needs addressed also but I'll stop here unless someone wants to hear what I have to say about it.
 
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I do not feel bad for GB if you wanna make it to week 11 you gotta challenge yourself it's simple a coach can easily tell who is a top program it's not hard to challenge your team to a game you got a 50/50 shot at winning now I'm not saying GB schedule Massillon, Hoban or Iggy but a team like Akron North or Tuslaw is something you should aim for you will get points for beating them an there not to over powered of a team.Whats crazy is they still got a shot at making the playoffs they sit at 10 an the team at 9 is eliminated they gotta win Friday an pray the 8th seeded team lose if all goes well then boom you playing week 11 but don't make the playoffs if you gone get blew tf out because your schedule was weak.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I do not feel bad for GB if you wanna make it to week 11 you gotta challenge yourself it's simple a coach can easily tell who is a top program it's not hard to challenge your team to a game you got a 50/50
I don't know that it's necessarily easy, particularly with smaller programs where gradating one or two brothers can change an entire team. Mohawk had very good record last year as did a couple conference members and down this.
GBurg can't really be faulted for that in MY opinion but Woodmore was a really bad OOC schedule, 0-10 last year, 2-8 the year before. Antwerp similarly. That goes on GBurg.

For me to hope GBurg gets in, means to hope someone else doesn't. Not a fair though in my mind. I think it's just life. In or not, GBurg should certainly celebrate a successful season.
 

queencitybuckeye

Well-known member
I have been saying that OHSAA should get rid of the regions since 1992 or earlier. My opinions have not changed. One reason is that I wanted to prevent something like this.

Again, please tell us why a team with less Harbin points should be in the playoff while a team with more is out?
1. Mr. Harbin himself recognized that with exceptions (the schools that basically play a statewide schedule), the system works better as a regional concept as the teams being ranked tend to play (and beat) each other, making the raw score from region to region not a valid basis for comparison.

2. IMO, the regional concept is better for the 600+ schools that will never, ever see week 15. The programs (most of them) who go year to year back and forth from bad to mediocre to decent are better rewarded on their good years by having the opportunity to win a region (be the big kid on the block) rather than the opportunity to play schools from around the state that they couldn't care less about. For a school I follow, the winning of a regional championship was a big deal to those kids. Then they got the bonus of getting to play one of the big dogs in week 14.
 

HighSchoolFB45

Well-known member
Good question. At this level you can't do that to kids... maybe cap it at 30. IDK what the answers are, and there is no perfect system, but it's fun to think about it!
I agree, if margin of victory should be accounted for, 30 should be the cap. Say you get a certain amount for a 1 point win, 2 point win, 7 point win, etc. Then when you reach 30 that is the most amount of harbin points you can receive from a score.
 
I don't know that it's necessarily easy, particularly with smaller programs where gradating one or two brothers can change an entire team. Mohawk had very good record last year as did a couple conference members and down this.
GBurg can't really be faulted for that in MY opinion but Woodmore was a really bad OOC schedule, 0-10 last year, 2-8 the year before. Antwerp similarly. That goes on GBurg.
One other aspect of the scheduling that has not been mentioned is that Gibsonburg changed conference affiliations before the 2018-'19 school year. In this area, the only two realistic D6/D7 refuges are the TAAC, the former conference, and the SBC-River, the new conference. The schools near the geographic dividing line between them often cross-schedule each other for their nonconference games. Gibsonburg was no exception, having most recently 1 NBC and 2 SBC OOC games. When a school moves into a league in which they already play nonconference games, these OOC spots need to be rescheduled immediately, with whomever is available that year.

Before the 2018-'19 year, 1 of those SBC OOCs was replaced by another NBC, and the other with a very strong N10 team. The next year, one of the NBCs with a soft record was replaced with an above-.500 TAAC. There is continuous improvement. Though, in small-school-non-recruit areas that are not the MAC, the teams are often cyclical, sometimes on a one-year turnaround, which makes Harbin-hunting teams wary of scheduling even a well-regarded school, because it could completely drop out the next year. End result is that schools that are not going out of their way to specifically design a schedule to maximize points, irrespective of fan following, tradition, and travel expenses, tend to end up playing each other ("devil-you-know-"). Not often, but once in a while, taking stability and realistic travel expenses takes a bite of the posterior end.
 

psavitt05

Member
Let's not forget as well that the Antwerp game was a late add before the season started because Antwerp and Gibsonburg lost a conference game due to Holgate and Sandusky St Mary's playing 8 man. It was either play Antwerp or play nine games for Gibsonburg. Antwerp was 6-4 last year so it probably looked like a good add so soon to the season beginning
 

northwest07

Well-known member
I think someone interested and has a lot of free time could figure out the top 32 and what a 1v32, 2v31, 3v30, etc.. would look like. Certainly would create some interesting and fun matchups!
Based on current points:
(32) Dayton Christian at (1) New Middletown Springfield
(31) Fairbanks at (2) Beverly Fort Frye
(30) Columbus Grove at (3) Liberty Center
(29) Berlin Center Western Reserve at (4) Mogodore
(28) Covington at (5) Glouster Trimble
(27) Worthington Christian at (6) Lima Central Catholic
(26) Grandview Heights at (7) Chillicothe Southeastern
(25) Brookfield at (8) Coldwater
(24) Mechanicsburg at (9) Anna
(23) Gibsonburg at (10) Western Reserve
(22) Columbiana at (11) Archbold
(21) Spencerville at (12) Seneca East
(20) Frankfort Adena (13) Allen East
(19) Galion Northmor at (14) Minster
(18) Salinesville Southern at (15) Dalton
(17) Fairview at (16) Paint Valley

Potential quarterfinals:
(8) Coldwater vs. (1) New Middletown Springfield
(5) Glouster Trimble vs. (4) Mogodore
(6) Lima Central Catholic vs. (3) Liberty Center
(7) Chillicothe Southeastern vs. (2) Beverly Fort Frye
 

FreeFromGreen

Active member
(32) Dayton Christian at (1) New Middletown Springfield - 265 miles - 4 hrs
(31) Fairbanks at (2) Beverly Fort Frye
(30) Columbus Grove at (3) Liberty Center
(29) Berlin Center Western Reserve at (4) Mogodore
(28) Covington at (5) Glouster Trimble - 162 miles - 3 hrs
(27) Worthington Christian at (6) Lima Central Catholic
(26) Grandview Heights at (7) Chillicothe Southeastern
(25) Brookfield at (8) Coldwater - 253 miles - 4 hrs
(24) Mechanicsburg at (9) Anna
(23) Gibsonburg at (10) Western Reserve
(22) Columbiana at (11) Archbold - 223 miles - 3.5 hrs
(21) Spencerville at (12) Seneca East
(20) Frankfort Adena (13) Allen East - 133 - 133 miles - 2.5 hrs
(19) Galion Northmor at (14) Minster - 104 miles - 2 hrs
(18) Salinesville Southern at (15) Dalton
(17) Fairview at (16) Paint Valley - 196 miles - 3.5 hrs
 

NDHater

Member
The truth is Gibsonburg would lose by 30+ to everyone in the playoffs. Missing the playoffs they can go out with grace and what ifs but they know the real truth. Had a good year but didn't beat anyone truly relevant. 10 years from now they can talk about how they could have won state but got screwed..... #notreally
 

LetTheDogEat

New member
The truth is Gibsonburg would lose by 30+ to everyone in the playoffs. Missing the playoffs they can go out with grace and what ifs but they know the real truth. Had a good year but didn't beat anyone truly relevant. 10 years from now they can talk about how they could have won state but got screwed..... #notreally
If the theory is no one should make the playoffs unless they can win, then taking 32 is too much. Only a handful of teams have a realistic shot at winning. It's cute to come on here and say things like this, but you don't know what would happen and past results do not always equal future results. That being said, no one is getting screwed here, no one is at fault, and most in GB are well aware of this.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
The truth is Gibsonburg would lose by 30+ to everyone in the playoffs. Missing the playoffs they can go out with grace and what ifs but they know the real truth. Had a good year but didn't beat anyone truly relevant.
Gibsonburg's score against region 22 Margaretta is a good indicator they would compete with the top of the harbins in that region. This is the point that has been made in this long thread. Do you have anything concrete to support your presumption/analysis?
 

Cali_Eagle

Active member
Final points/observations about Harbin points. Harbin does a great job at evaluating a teams schedule, of that there is no doubt. However I wonder how well it evaluates a team considering it doesn't take into account margin of victory. A team with a "C-" schedule that wins by an average of 35 points can easily be just as good as a team with an A/B schedule that wins each game by 3. A win counts in Harbin as a win equally if by 1 or 50. So a teams Harbin points certainly tells us how good the teams schedule was... I don't know we can always extrapolate that to tell us how good that TEAM is or use it as some predictive test.

Also, and this is getting very into the weeds, but Harbin doesn't tell us how good the schedule of the teams that team has beaten are. Perhaps a 3rd level of points (2nd level points of every team you beat) could be fun! :)

Food for thought.
The first 2 or 3 seasons (counting the 1971 "test season") of the Harbin System had 3rd Level points. There are flaws in using them. A reporter for the Warren Tribune-Chronicle (I believe, might have been the Youngstown Vindicator) was running the points for Warren Western Reserve in 1972 or 1973 and discovered if they LOST to fellow winless NEOL member Lorain Southview (now closed) that WWR would gain MORE points via the 3rd level than if they beat them because the other 4 members of the NEOL had all beaten Southview which was 0-9.

Fans wrote in suggesting forfeiting, throwing the game, rolling up a big score and sending in an eligible player etc. To their credit WWR played it straight, beat Southview 49-0, easily made the playoffs. In 1972 they were the State's 1st ever playoff champions, In1973 they lost the State Title Game to Youngstown Mooney.

FWIW, Jack Harbin was very opposed to using Margin of Victory as a criterium for the System. He felt it encouraged coaches to run up the score & therefore taught bad sportsmanship to the kids & that that was the wrong message to be teaching HS kids. I agree with him 100% on that but I think the running clock should be set at 40 not 30. I think at 30 teams still sometimes have a chance to comeback (UCLA down 32 to Wash State and rallying to win this season, in NCAA football.)
 

Cali_Eagle

Active member
Regions are desired by OHSAA because they want everyone from around the State to have a shot at winning State Titles. Regions were thought necessary by Jack Harbin because he felt it was almost impossible to compare teams from SWO (for example) that all mostly play each other to teams from NEO (again for example) because there was such little play between the two regions. In some seasons back then, (early 70's) there was probably no play at all between the Regions.

Regions are desired by the fans to try and minimize travel between teams. Doesn't always work, look at Pepper Pike Orange's road trip to St Mary Memorial last season, but mostly it does. Teams like the home games and facing local rivals for the Regional Titles also. The long road trips cited in Post # 219 would cause a quick outcry against taking the top 32 state wide IMHO. I also think neutral sites (if used to lessen distance for road team) would result in very low attendance. On some of those trips cited in post # 219 probably only family and students would show up from both schools. Again this is just my opinion, and that last statement is probably hyperbole, but the spirit of it (low attendance) is probably true.
 
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Whisker

Member
The truth is Gibsonburg would lose by 30+ to everyone in the playoffs. Missing the playoffs they can go out with grace and what ifs but they know the real truth. Had a good year but didn't beat anyone truly relevant. 10 years from now they can talk about how they could have won state but got screwed..... #notreally
You’ve outed yourself as a complete idiot. I think you’re the same troll that used to live under a rock on jjhuddle years ago.
 
The truth is Gibsonburg would lose by 30+ to everyone in the playoffs. Missing the playoffs they can go out with grace and what ifs but they know the real truth. Had a good year but didn't beat anyone truly relevant. 10 years from now they can talk about how they could have won state but got screwed..... #notreally
I haven't seen anyone make this assertion, here or IRL. It just looks like you have arrived to inject negativity.
 

NDHater

Member
Must be a bunch of millennials.... facts don’t care about feelings. They had a great year but they’re playing at a lower/different level than others in that region. Nothing wrong with going 10-0 ..... doesn’t make me an idiot for saying it.
 

TOMtheBUSDRIVER

New member
Gibsonburg's score against region 22 Margaretta is a good indicator they would compete with the top of the harbins in that region. This is the point that has been made in this long thread. Do you have anything concrete to support your presumption/analysis?
Do you actually think a
It would be a absolute shame if the Bears go undefeated and don’t make the playoffs. It is not there fault they play in a weak conference so strength of schedule hurts them. The blame goes on OHSAA and the hose job they put on region 23. They put all the MAC schools and a few other small school powerhouses in there to try and have them knock each other off and get more teams in the playoffs that probably don’t belong in them. No disrespect to some other regions but you will probably see teams out of region 23 with 2 loses or no loses miss the playoffs when they would be in the top of other conferences. Then other teams with .500 records get in. Nobody wants to see running clocks in the playoffs the first week on a widespread basis. It’s comically called the MAC rule and all those changes started after they had 3 teams in the Title games in D5-D6-D7 back in 2014. Silly OHSAA spread the talent out abit over the regions, and then you will have better turnout and competition in the first 2 rounds instead of blowouts. I understand competitive balance idea but your making it ridiculous. Just my 2 cents.
They left a crappy league and joined another crappy league and scheduled a crappy non league. Knowing what region you are in you have to be better with scheduling. MAC and NWOAL powerhouses riddle that region. Shame on the AD and head coach for the blunder.
 

Blue Jay Fan

Well-known member
They left a crappy league and joined another crappy league and scheduled a crappy non league. Knowing what region you are in you have to be better with scheduling. MAC and NWOAL powerhouses riddle that region. Shame on the AD and head coach for the blunder.
It was noted earlier that Gibsonburg had to schedule Antwerp as a last minute replacement for Holgate. Antwerp went 6-4 last year but 0-9 this year. And you can't schedule for your region because you don't know who's in your region until shortly before the season. It's not like you can rearrange your schedule at the last minute every year. Gibsonburg went 9-1 in 2018 and finished #2 in their region with a very similar schedule.
 

NDHater

Member
It was noted earlier that Gibsonburg had to schedule Antwerp as a last minute replacement for Holgate. Antwerp went 6-4 last year but 0-9 this year. And you can't schedule for your region because you don't know who's in your region until shortly before the season. It's not like you can rearrange your schedule at the last minute every year. Gibsonburg went 9-1 in 2018 and finished #2 in their region with a very similar schedule.
And lost to #7 35-7 ........... as I said. Nothing wrong with going 10-0 and ending with a W.
 

Whisker

Member
Must be a bunch of millennials.... facts don’t care about feelings. They had a great year but they’re playing at a lower/different level than others in that region. Nothing wrong with going 10-0 ..... doesn’t make me an idiot for saying it.
Hiding behind your handle just like you did years ago on the huddle. I’m prepared to disclose who I am because I’m not an embarrassment like you. Not one person made claims to Gibsonburg winning a state title. I know these kids and coaches, not one is making your BS claims of saying they got screwed and will talk crap in 10 years how they would have won state. In fact I feel sorry for you, you’re a small man. It would be nice to meet you some day for re-affirmation. For the sake of keeping things clean in the forum I’ll leave it at that.
I have extremely close ties to the program I won’t hide it, I’ve seen the really bad, the kinda bad, the improving, up to and including this year’s team. They are completely different than past seasons. Too many good points on this forum to mention to have it poisoned by a troll. It has been illustrated ad nauseam why Gibsonburg will finish outside of the playoffs assuming they win their final game. One, regional alignment, they would have had no problem in previous region 22. Two, soft schedule. Is it fair that 5-5 teams are near shoe ins to make playoffs in the region that Gibsonburg was in last year, no! But it is what it is. The OHSAA made the changes right wrong or indifferent. I actually enjoy hearing others’ opinions including those I don’t agree with. We will never know if Gibsonburg would get ‘running clocked’ as too many prognostic football gurus claim. No one except maybe a couple on here have seen Gibsonburg play this year. Just like I haven’t seen all of the beloved MAC schools play. It’s not too much to ask to bring a sound argument, have a bit of evidence to support it, and have an open mind and listen to others opinions. I’ve been around the game my entire life, playing through youth, high school, and college. Coached for another decade, I can guarantee you I’m no snowflake millennial.
These kids can only play who they are scheduled and they played each game with class. The coaches could have kept starters in the game scoring many more touchdowns and running up the score, but they coached with class. Fans and parents of players like me have kept our mouths shut simply wishing for things to have worked out differently for a very very deserving group of players and coaches. For all of us, our season will end one week too soon.
I’m ready to turn the page but they are owed a bit of respect, they’ve earned it.
 

jmog

Well-known member
I like the idea of the top 32 teams in each division getting in. Hopefully that way, we are getting the 32 best teams in each division.

I did talk to Mike Lee last week and this is not an unfamiliar situation for him. He was the coach of St. Wendelin back in the 80s. In a three-year stretch, they went 10-0, 9-1, and 10-0 in the regular season. They got in the playoffs in the 9-1 and missed both times at 10-0. The 9-1 team finished at the state runners-up and Mike argues that the second 10-0 team was better than the state runners-up team.
To be fair in the 80s only 4 teams got in for each region.
 

NDHater

Member
Hiding behind your handle just like you did years ago on the huddle. I’m prepared to disclose who I am because I’m not an embarrassment like you. Not one person made claims to Gibsonburg winning a state title. I know these kids and coaches, not one is making your BS claims of saying they got screwed and will talk crap in 10 years how they would have won state. In fact I feel sorry for you, you’re a small man. It would be nice to meet you some day for re-affirmation. For the sake of keeping things clean in the forum I’ll leave it at that.
I have extremely close ties to the program I won’t hide it, I’ve seen the really bad, the kinda bad, the improving, up to and including this year’s team. They are completely different than past seasons. Too many good points on this forum to mention to have it poisoned by a troll. It has been illustrated ad nauseam why Gibsonburg will finish outside of the playoffs assuming they win their final game. One, regional alignment, they would have had no problem in previous region 22. Two, soft schedule. Is it fair that 5-5 teams are near shoe ins to make playoffs in the region that Gibsonburg was in last year, no! But it is what it is. The OHSAA made the changes right wrong or indifferent. I actually enjoy hearing others’ opinions including those I don’t agree with. We will never know if Gibsonburg would get ‘running clocked’ as too many prognostic football gurus claim. No one except maybe a couple on here have seen Gibsonburg play this year. Just like I haven’t seen all of the beloved MAC schools play. It’s not too much to ask to bring a sound argument, have a bit of evidence to support it, and have an open mind and listen to others opinions. I’ve been around the game my entire life, playing through youth, high school, and college. Coached for another decade, I can guarantee you I’m no snowflake millennial.
These kids can only play who they are scheduled and they played each game with class. The coaches could have kept starters in the game scoring many more touchdowns and running up the score, but they coached with class. Fans and parents of players like me have kept our mouths shut simply wishing for things to have worked out differently for a very very deserving group of players and coaches. For all of us, our season will end one week too soon.
I’m ready to turn the page but they are owed a bit of respect, they’ve earned it.
[/QUOTE
Hiding behind your handle just like you did years ago on the huddle. I’m prepared to disclose who I am because I’m not an embarrassment like you. Not one person made claims to Gibsonburg winning a state title. I know these kids and coaches, not one is making your BS claims of saying they got screwed and will talk crap in 10 years how they would have won state. In fact I feel sorry for you, you’re a small man. It would be nice to meet you some day for re-affirmation. For the sake of keeping things clean in the forum I’ll leave it at that.
I have extremely close ties to the program I won’t hide it, I’ve seen the really bad, the kinda bad, the improving, up to and including this year’s team. They are completely different than past seasons. Too many good points on this forum to mention to have it poisoned by a troll. It has been illustrated ad nauseam why Gibsonburg will finish outside of the playoffs assuming they win their final game. One, regional alignment, they would have had no problem in previous region 22. Two, soft schedule. Is it fair that 5-5 teams are near shoe ins to make playoffs in the region that Gibsonburg was in last year, no! But it is what it is. The OHSAA made the changes right wrong or indifferent. I actually enjoy hearing others’ opinions including those I don’t agree with. We will never know if Gibsonburg would get ‘running clocked’ as too many prognostic football gurus claim. No one except maybe a couple on here have seen Gibsonburg play this year. Just like I haven’t seen all of the beloved MAC schools play. It’s not too much to ask to bring a sound argument, have a bit of evidence to support it, and have an open mind and listen to others opinions. I’ve been around the game my entire life, playing through youth, high school, and college. Coached for another decade, I can guarantee you I’m no snowflake millennial.
These kids can only play who they are scheduled and they played each game with class. The coaches could have kept starters in the game scoring many more touchdowns and running up the score, but they coached with class. Fans and parents of players like me have kept our mouths shut simply wishing for things to have worked out differently for a very very deserving group of players and coaches. For all of us, our season will end one week too soon.
I’m ready to turn the page but they are owed a bit of respect, they’ve earned it.
Congrats on 10-0 and trophy. I guess saying there’s nothing wrong with going 10-0 and ending with a W is disrespectful....
 

Whisker

Member
Congrats on 10-0 and trophy. I guess saying there’s nothing wrong with going 10-0 and ending with a W is disrespectful....
You’re a troll and everyone now knows it......
NDHater
New member

Today at 5:19 PM
The truth is Gibsonburg would lose by 30+ to everyone in the playoffs. Missing the playoffs they can go out with grace and what ifs but they know the real truth. Had a good year but didn't beat anyone truly relevant. 10 years from now they can talk about how they could have won state but got screwed..... #notreally
 

thavoice

Well-known member
To be fair in the 80s only 4 teams got in for each region.
Prior to '85, only 2 teams were making it.

Those records back in the day and missing the playoffs was not rare. 3 times we went 10-0/9-1 and missed it but ironically enough went 7-3 and made it one season.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Congrats on 10-0 and trophy. I guess saying there’s nothing wrong with going 10-0 and ending with a W is disrespectful....
Maybe if Gibsonburgh gets some publication to vote them #1 they will claim it as a state championship a la West Jefferson
 
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