And don’t forget they had follow the leader, only placed top 6 wrestlers and had no girls division, so they had significantly less matches.
Will the State Tournament be moved in the near future?
- Thread starter tkdn_wizard
- Start date
tkdn_wizard
Member
The OHSAA had coaches vote on this a few years ago. I believe the highest percentage was to shorten it by two weeks, but they ended up just shortening it by one week. My memory is a little fuzzy on how that played out, I'd have to find the e-mail, but I know coaches voted for their opinion on it.
tkdn_wizard
Member
I don't think anyone, the wrestling community as a whole, wants to leave the Schott.
I think everyone is quite happy with the venue. I think it's great!
When I posed the topic/question - it wasn't IF "the wrestling community" wanted to leave the Schott. I was saying if OSU and the OHSAA couldn't come to an agreement or were forced out and the state tournament HAD to leave. Then what were the possible options.
If the choice was between start later to shorten and keep it the same, I would have chosen keep it the same. I hated the timing of the beginning this year. Friday 1st official practice, then Thanksgiving break the next week...
I only want it shorter on the back end to combat running into track and baseball. You're committed kids will be there whenever so it's not abour them, but the hit and miss kids love track and baseball compared to the end of wrestling season.
Plus we could move up youth and Junior High. Get everyone in the state working freestyle earlier and hopefully see significant growth in that aspect. Where I think we've been falling behind with part of that being how long it goes before we start it...
Do you truly feel that either of those sports is more physically demanding than wrestling?
I also feel that the winter sports overlapping with spring sports should not be a thing....so I am for moving up the end of all winter sports.
With football season getting expanded and being longer I don't see OHSAA moving the start date up anytime soon, but I would be ok if we started first week of November and ended in the middle of February. I've said on another topic on here, I'll make due with the schedule I'm handed from OHSAA if it's longer, shorter, or the same, so long as I have enough time to make those adjustments. With early Nov-Feb schedule, the only real overlap is football and we're no longer overlapping spring sports.
roadkill22
Member
This response is just in general to those who want to shorten the season... While true, if coaches/programs thought it was too grueling, they can control their schedule, the overall workload and how many tournaments/duals to enter. The wrestling season is a window of opportunity, not a jail sentence without parole. Not every program wrestles a 50-60 match schedule every year...
I'm not sure if anyone heard the attendance for the last 3 sessions (I'm assuming Session 3 & Session 5 are the most attended based on being the Semis/Finals)
Typically the least attended is Session 4
What I heard them announce for the first 2 sessions
Session 1- 13765
Session 2- 13595
My guess is session 3 and 5 are around 14-15k
Below are the arenas across the state. Things the venue must have to work for OHSAA State Wrestling:
1. 14k+ seating
2. Ability to have 10 mats with space for tables/walking
3. Warm up area for the wrestlers in or connected to the arena
As you can see below there are only 4 venues in the entire state that meet criteria #1 above (seating capacity). Those are: Heritage, RMFH, Schott, & Nationwide.
We know the Schott meets criteria #2 & #3. Do the other 3 venues meet those criteria?
I'm assuming RMFH must have a warm-up area because NCAA wrestling was there in 2018 and will be back in 2026 but keep in mind there are only 330 wrestlers at that tournament compared to 896 for OHSAA state. So the warm-up area for NCAA's can be much smaller than OHSAA state.
Cincinnati
Heritage Bank Center- 17,556 (Possible Obstacle: Cincinnati Cyclones schedule)
Fifth Third Arena- 13,176 (Not enough seats)
Cleveland
Rocket Mortgage Field House- 19,432 (Possible Obstacle: Have to plan around Cavs schedule)
Wolstein Center- 13,610 (Not enough seats and I believe when NCAA was there in 1998 it was tight with 8 mats)
Columbus
Schott- 18,809- Negative is can't do Thur-Sat anymore (OSU says parking) and probably can't do at end of Feb because of OSU basketball/hockey
Nationwide- 18,500 for hockey, 19,500 for basketball. Possible Obstacle: Can the venue host with NHL season occurring at the same time? And during the current weekend of OHSAA state wrestling is OHSAA state hockey at this venue. So one of them would have to move dates.
Dayton
Nutter Center- 11,200 (Not enough seats, only holds 8 mats)
UD Arena- 13,409 (Not enough seats)
Cintas Center- 10,250 (Not enough seats)
Toledo
Both arenas only seat 8,000 or less
Kent
MAC center only seats about 6,500
Akron
Rhodes Arena only seats 5,500
Youngstown
Covelli Center only seats 5,900
Typically the least attended is Session 4
What I heard them announce for the first 2 sessions
Session 1- 13765
Session 2- 13595
My guess is session 3 and 5 are around 14-15k
Below are the arenas across the state. Things the venue must have to work for OHSAA State Wrestling:
1. 14k+ seating
2. Ability to have 10 mats with space for tables/walking
3. Warm up area for the wrestlers in or connected to the arena
As you can see below there are only 4 venues in the entire state that meet criteria #1 above (seating capacity). Those are: Heritage, RMFH, Schott, & Nationwide.
We know the Schott meets criteria #2 & #3. Do the other 3 venues meet those criteria?
I'm assuming RMFH must have a warm-up area because NCAA wrestling was there in 2018 and will be back in 2026 but keep in mind there are only 330 wrestlers at that tournament compared to 896 for OHSAA state. So the warm-up area for NCAA's can be much smaller than OHSAA state.
Cincinnati
Heritage Bank Center- 17,556 (Possible Obstacle: Cincinnati Cyclones schedule)
Fifth Third Arena- 13,176 (Not enough seats)
Cleveland
Rocket Mortgage Field House- 19,432 (Possible Obstacle: Have to plan around Cavs schedule)
Wolstein Center- 13,610 (Not enough seats and I believe when NCAA was there in 1998 it was tight with 8 mats)
Columbus
Schott- 18,809- Negative is can't do Thur-Sat anymore (OSU says parking) and probably can't do at end of Feb because of OSU basketball/hockey
Nationwide- 18,500 for hockey, 19,500 for basketball. Possible Obstacle: Can the venue host with NHL season occurring at the same time? And during the current weekend of OHSAA state wrestling is OHSAA state hockey at this venue. So one of them would have to move dates.
Dayton
Nutter Center- 11,200 (Not enough seats, only holds 8 mats)
UD Arena- 13,409 (Not enough seats)
Cintas Center- 10,250 (Not enough seats)
Toledo
Both arenas only seat 8,000 or less
Kent
MAC center only seats about 6,500
Akron
Rhodes Arena only seats 5,500
Youngstown
Covelli Center only seats 5,900
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Campolongo
Moderator
I'll say it again, find a location that can host for 4 consecutive days.
Day 1 & Day 2
Girls & Div. 1 Boys
Day 3 & Day 4
Div. 2 & 3 Boys
Tickets purchased for Day 1 & 2 are only good for Day 1 & 2.
Rotate what divisions are paired together
--- Example:
2025
D1 & Girls /// D2 & D3
2026
D3 & D1 // Girls & D2
.... etc.
Schedule changes include Quarter-finals on Day 1 as well as 2nd round consolation .... if not more to lighten the load on 2nd day of competition.
Doing this opens the door for arenas on the smaller side as well as avoiding the necessity of 10 mats.
Wrestling fans have been spoiled for years with watching 3 (and now 4) state tournaments simultaneously and for the same price tag.
Enjoy the 2 cent donation.
Day 1 & Day 2
Girls & Div. 1 Boys
Day 3 & Day 4
Div. 2 & 3 Boys
Tickets purchased for Day 1 & 2 are only good for Day 1 & 2.
Rotate what divisions are paired together
--- Example:
2025
D1 & Girls /// D2 & D3
2026
D3 & D1 // Girls & D2
.... etc.
Schedule changes include Quarter-finals on Day 1 as well as 2nd round consolation .... if not more to lighten the load on 2nd day of competition.
Doing this opens the door for arenas on the smaller side as well as avoiding the necessity of 10 mats.
Wrestling fans have been spoiled for years with watching 3 (and now 4) state tournaments simultaneously and for the same price tag.
Enjoy the 2 cent donation.
I would hate for it to come to that. Its THE State Tournament...not divisional state. I'd personally rather keep Fri-Sun than completely change the format to something like that. Thats a big part of the attraction to the more casual fan if you are not following a kid or relative. The BS we had in 2021 still rubs me wrong.
Going to a smaller venue would possibly cut into OHSAA's bottom line unless the cost to rent the venue is significantly lower. OHSAA won't make a change that cuts their profits
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
This is what I was saying 2 or 3 years ago. I hope people listen to you more than they did to me.
The tournaments would be run in two days and be similar to the District tournament but 2 for the price of 1.
However, until a certain director thinks of this, it isn't too likely.
If you haven't watched the video I suggest you take 10 minutes because there are some good pieces of information on here regarding the running of the tournament. I wish Fred would have followed up and asked him what other venues would work and which ones won't.
Couple things I found interesting:
- He mentions they had 75 suggested changes in 2023 and 50 so far in 2024 and they implement nearly all of them. Would love to see these lists and know what actually changes. He also mentions that they will change the weigh-ins next year again. Hopefully on the arena floor and not in the bottleneck of the concourse. And hopefully they tell the redcoats to not check bags for weigh-ins or open all 4 entrances for weigh-ins if you really fell the need to check bags. The line around the building and wrestlers not being able to check weights was ridiculous.
- He says average attendance is 12-13k. I think this was based on prior numbers because it was looking like the average was going to be 13.5-14.5k this year
- Adding the girls division added 4.5-5hrs of total wrestling over the 3 days. Said that if/when the girls go to 2 divisions it won't be possible to have the tournament in it's current format of 3 days (My guess is it would have to go to 4 days or girls will be split off from the boys). If it goes to 4 days then it wouldn't be able to be held at OSU because of what he says at the 6:30 minute mark.
- At 6:30 minute mark, he says that OHSAA state at OSU is locked into Fri-Sun because OSU needs the parking on Thursday
- At 9:45 minute mark, he talks about how the Schott has wider/deeper corners than some of the other arenas they have looked at. He said that when all 10 mats are laid out at some other venues they would go nearly to the wall with not enough room for walkways/tables/etc
tkdn_wizard
Member
I think there is one of two outcomes in the near future:
1 - OSU forces OHSAA's hand in some capacity - raises the rent/requires it be another weekend - and from the sounds of it there aren't too many places to go - thus forcing OHSAA to split up the tournament as suggested above.
2 - The girls expand to 2 divisions, in which case the Schott will not be able to hold both boys and girls any longer. And the girls will have to have their own venue.
One thought is to have the boys at the Schott and have the girls at the Covelli Center, so same location but different buildings.
The bottom line with the girls is if they continue to grow there is no location in the state that can keep boys and girls together.
I think splitting the tournament up is inevitable.
Whether that is G/D1 and D2/D3 or Boys D1,2,3 and Girls D 1,2.
Edit: Some of the things I mentioned were addressed in the video, which I had not watched before posting.
1 - OSU forces OHSAA's hand in some capacity - raises the rent/requires it be another weekend - and from the sounds of it there aren't too many places to go - thus forcing OHSAA to split up the tournament as suggested above.
2 - The girls expand to 2 divisions, in which case the Schott will not be able to hold both boys and girls any longer. And the girls will have to have their own venue.
One thought is to have the boys at the Schott and have the girls at the Covelli Center, so same location but different buildings.
The bottom line with the girls is if they continue to grow there is no location in the state that can keep boys and girls together.
I think splitting the tournament up is inevitable.
Whether that is G/D1 and D2/D3 or Boys D1,2,3 and Girls D 1,2.
Edit: Some of the things I mentioned were addressed in the video, which I had not watched before posting.
Jim,
We agree on a lot of things regarding wrestling but I'm not for the split state tournament of 2 days of 2 divisions. I like having sessions 3-5 together
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- When girls go to 2 divisions (Probably happens in 2-4 years) I would be all for having them at the Covelli for sessions 1-2.
- You could bring them all (boys & girls) back together for sessions 3, 4, & 5.
- Instead of reducing to 8 mats, you keep it at 10 mats for sessions 3 & 4.
- Keeping 10 mats doesn't change the time schedule and doesn't add any additional time to the tournament. See attached schedule https://ohsaaweb.blob.core.windows.net/files/Sports/Wrestling/WRindTourneyRegs.pdf
- Then for session 5 (finals) you could have 5 mats on the arena floor.
- Here's a way to bring back the elevated mat. Have a coaches volunteer online sign up where they sign a liability waiver, watch a safety video/tutorial on how to set things up. Having volunteers doesn't add to the cost and I'm sure that many coaches would be more than willing to help to give the athletes an opportunity to wrestle on the stage. We set up for tournaments all the time and many hands make light work. Session 4 ends at 2pm. Guarantee the coaches could have that stage set up in less than 1hr.
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Jim Behrens
Well-known member
I am not "for" it either but the options are very limited (as evidenced by your work on the sizes of buildings in the state that would work) so, IMO, all options have to be explored.
Speaking only for myself, I think the present format is way too long and I really do not like the Friday through Sunday setup.
BTW, I just saw the idea of having coaches volunteer to set up the stage. I would guess that a LOT of people would say they would do it and then be nowhere to be found at crunch time. One hour to set it up?? I would pay just to watch that. LOL
usawrestling
Active member
Seems logical in the future if girls wrestling continues to grow and goes to 2 divisions, they should have their own state championship venue
One thing to note about the comparison of 8 mats for NCAA vs. 10 mats for high school is you have to consider the length/width (most notably length) difference going down the line.
Going five mats down a line with the lightweight/section mats in high school ... 36 (6 restraining plus 30 competition), 6 buffer, 30 competition, 6, 30, 6, 30, 6, 36 (competition plus restraint) ... which is 36 x 5 + 6 = 186 feet.
I forget exactly what the diameter for a college mat is, but it's more than the 30 they use for high school. Then they also use the full resilite mats, i.e. the competition diameter plus a buffer on each side, then stack those four in a line.
So far from what's happening nationally is that the boys and girls events are being held concurrently, most notably for economies of scale (facility costs, staffing costs, etc.). I think a look at what a state like Missouri is doing structurally with its state individual tournament is going to be worth studying. They have four classes for the boys and two classes for the girls. They've gone to eight mats in one facility with two boys and one girls division for two days each (i.e. W/TH is two boys and one girls, then F/SA is the other two boys and the other girls). Obviously there are pitfalls with that structure, but it keeps the tournaments somewhat together and achieves certain economies of scale.
Going five mats down a line with the lightweight/section mats in high school ... 36 (6 restraining plus 30 competition), 6 buffer, 30 competition, 6, 30, 6, 30, 6, 36 (competition plus restraint) ... which is 36 x 5 + 6 = 186 feet.
I forget exactly what the diameter for a college mat is, but it's more than the 30 they use for high school. Then they also use the full resilite mats, i.e. the competition diameter plus a buffer on each side, then stack those four in a line.
So far from what's happening nationally is that the boys and girls events are being held concurrently, most notably for economies of scale (facility costs, staffing costs, etc.). I think a look at what a state like Missouri is doing structurally with its state individual tournament is going to be worth studying. They have four classes for the boys and two classes for the girls. They've gone to eight mats in one facility with two boys and one girls division for two days each (i.e. W/TH is two boys and one girls, then F/SA is the other two boys and the other girls). Obviously there are pitfalls with that structure, but it keeps the tournaments somewhat together and achieves certain economies of scale.
I appreciate the clarification. It’s just sometimes as a community we’re extremely short sided, and pessimistic. I think overall our state does a great job with our wrestlers, and the Ohsaa product!
Nothing wrong with brainstorming ideas. Different strokes, different folks.
I'm also not a fan of the Fri-Sun time frame. Monday at work is brutal.
Hard to say if people would show up or not. I would hope that if they cared about the product of the finals they would. Do you know how many people it took to set up the stage in prior years? How long it took? I don't know those answers. Are the risers anchored together? I don't know the exact process but it can't be rocket science.
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Jim Behrens
Well-known member
"Work"?? What is this work you mention?
I know the officials, scorers and timers rolled up the mats and move them. Repositioning them and the related stuff took easily more than an hour this year.
I never saw the stage assembled because it was time to attend meetings and eat dinner. It was a lot of pieces that were brought in with lift trucks and people from the arena did the assembly. Then the mats that were rolled up have to be lifted on the stage, set up and taped. Tables and scoring towers (and computers) have to be moved.
All in all, it really is a lot of work while everyone is out having their break.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
I thought part of this thought exercise was to allow Wrestling to end the last weekend of Feb. If so, then we don't have a conflict between Wrestling and OHSAA Hockey. As for the NHL schedule, if booked in advance the Blue Jackets can be on a road trip then.
Just laying all the information out there. I'm all for ending the last weekend in February. At the Schott that won't work. OHSAA cut a week off the front instead of the back which I wasn't for. And I understand not wanting to have it during Arnold weekend. Hotel rates go through the roof.
I love having the tournament in Columbus. Great city only 2hrs or less for most. Does Nationwide have a warmup area wrestlers can use like the Schott? My guess is it doesn't as I'm sure that's the first place that OHSAA has looked beyond the Schott because it's centrally located. So that may be why we haven't seen more traction with it moving there.
But I'm just speculating. Would love for someone to chime in on some of these facilities and if they meet the criteria I've listed
Haha. Those funny retired folk jabs!
I'm sure it's a lot of work but if your work force is doubled/tripled a lot of those task such as rolling up mats and repositioning them goes much quicker. We're not moving resilites mats anymore. Dollamurs take 2 people per section. Ahh kids these days don't know how well they've got it not having to move the behemoth Resilites
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
Don't quote me on this, but theoretically you could cover the ice in the Icehaus and use it for warm ups.
Pardon my ignorance but what is the Icehaus?
MPhillips
Well-known member
OhioHealth Ice Haus - Arena District
The OhioHealth Haus at Nationwide Arena is the practice home of the Columbus Blue Jackets. This one-of-its-kind facility is also home to several community hockey leagues around Columbus. The Ice Haus also hosts public activities including youth and adult hockey leagues, public skating, birthday...
www.arenadistrict.com