What's the board coming to? No mention of the OATCCC Proposal for 5 XC-6 Track Divisions

 
I don’t know about 5 divisions for cross country. Just looking at what would directly affect me, central district D4 girls would only have 8 teams (boys 13). Figure only 2 or 3 girls teams and maybe 4 boys teams advance. What does regional look like? Is Pickerington regional a 12 team race with 3 qualifying? (Rhetorical question). Those feel really small to me. I can see advantages, but it feels overly diluted.
Maybe asking for 5 gets 4.
 
I am not in favor of girls XC going to 5 divisions. 4 at best but I feel that 3 is perfect for girls XC for the district numbers. Maybe I need to look at other district results and look into all of them but 3 is a good number right now.

I feel that boys are in a different situation. The boy's divisions could go to 4 and it would work out nicely. I feel that the biggest complaints are from the smaller D1 schools.

I would be in favor of D1 splitting into 2 divisions. That would make a scenario similar to other sports where D1 is the MEGA schools and then D2 would be what is left over. D3 would be the former D2 and D4 would be the former D3.

But overall for XC I also don't feel like a change is necessary.

After hearing the OHSAA present the rules- in which in the D1 meeting I felt like a brawl or an insurrection was about to take place. The OHSAA reps were continuously arrogant and did not listen to legitimate concerns from the coaches. Boos from the crowd should have been a sign that you are not doing your job correctly. But I should not be surprised by a corrupt organization.

And then listening to OATCCC- especially from Anjanette, who is an amazing person and ambassador of our sport. If we have Anjanette representing OATCCC and pushing the agenda, then we have a fighting chance.

I feel that OHSAA is doing this for $$$, easiness, and the other point- CLUB sports. They mentioned that OHSAA wants to compete with the club sports and they feel that the best way to compete with club sports is to make more opportunities for kids to be successful. They believe that if more kids have a chance at success the more participation they will derive. Overall, I thought this was the most interesting point of the entire coaching clinic.
 
With regard to 5 divisions in XC, consider the possibility they don't retain the district/regional concept and just go to more regional meets with no districts. Michigan has 9 regions feeding their state meet in cross-country. They seem to do ok in XC every year with that approach.
 
madman said:
With regard to 5 divisions in XC, consider the possibility they don't retain the district/regional concept and just go to more regional meets with no districts. Michigan has 9 regions feeding their state meet in cross-country. They seem to do ok in XC every year with that approach.
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If only have 58 teams in a division I don't see any way to have 3 rounds. I would also hope they cut the teams that make it to state to only 6 teams. No reason over 10% of teams should make it to state or is it really that big of accomplishment? If keep it at 20 would be a joke when over 1/3 of teams make it to state. Currently 60 teams make it to regional would all teams just move on to regional if don't make any changes.

There is good reason to make a smaller number of teams D1 but no understanding why also need a smaller D2 as the enrollment differences would not be that big.
 
It's hard to comment on any of this because even as a paying members of the association, I had no clue this was being proposed. I disagree with most of it and I don't think we have to do things just because other sports do. I would be for 4 divisions and if the goal is to have more participation or awards like All-Ohio, just increase the numbers we give out. It was suggested to me, and I agree, Just increase All-State in CC to say top 30 in D3, Top 45 in D2 and top 60 in D1. Something like that. We could also just allow more teams and individuals to qualify instead of adding a 5th or 6th division.

In Track, Add a 4th division and just allow more qualifiers. Instead of two qualifying heats have 3 and distance races can run 24 kids.

Track seems to need a 4th division IMO, but I don't see the need for a 5th or 6th.
 
My sense is the 5 divisions and 6 divisions choice was to reflect numerical parity with the divisional expansion the OHSAA has proposed for "competitive balance" sports. It makes a certain amount of sense in making such an argument to counter "Your numbers do not warrant a 4th division" with "If we were treated like the sports you are expanding we'd have 5 and 6 divisions." I think a very good point was made at the meeting at the clinic on Thursday night, about cross country being an intrinsically team sport. Because you don't compete for the title unless your team is there. And the OHSAA doesn't count you as a team if you don't have five.

For that matter, if TF isn't considered a team sport, why is there a need to have 9 to count as a team?
 
For what it's worth, I feel that all parties concerned would like to keep cross country to have the same number of divisions for boys and girls. the reason for this is because it is "easier" is terms of scheduling and keeping schools in the same division (partly due to many having one coach for both genders). Presently, the few schools who boys and girls are in separate divisions have some problems. Although 3 divisions may be about right for now, the other sports (team - volleyball, soccer etc.) will be expanding, does that mean cross country need to get a piece of the action? Their is no doubt that expanding football to 7 divisions has helped those kids, those programs and the sport in Ohio. Mor opportunities for kids and schools...and more money $ for all - the OHSAA, communities and schools. Why is volleyball and soccer expanding? Will their kids really have more opportunities? I think that those sports will get the same results as football and cross country could get left out.

Now, IMO track is completely different and believe the OHSAA adn most school administrators think they are the same sport... They are not. so I will post later about that
 
ENA2 said:
For what it's worth, I feel that all parties concerned would like to keep cross country to have the same number of divisions for boys and girls. the reason for this is because it is "easier" is terms of scheduling and keeping schools in the same division (partly due to many having one coach for both genders). Presently, the few schools who boys and girls are in separate divisions have some problems. Although 3 divisions may be about right for now, the other sports (team - volleyball, soccer etc.) will be expanding, does that mean cross country need to get a piece of the action? Their is no doubt that expanding football to 7 divisions has helped those kids, those programs and the sport in Ohio. Mor opportunities for kids and schools...and more money $ for all - the OHSAA, communities and schools. Why is volleyball and soccer expanding? Will their kids really have more opportunities? I think that those sports will get the same results as football and cross country could get left out.

Now, IMO track is completely different and believe the OHSAA adn most school administrators think they are the same sport... They are not. so I will post later about that
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More divisions will naturally lead to more schools that boys and girls will be in different divisions.

I haven't seen the answer to this is the expectation that there will still be 20 per division make it to state and 60 to regional meet? If not what is the proposed new numbers?
 
ENA2 said:
For what it's worth, I feel that all parties concerned would like to keep cross country to have the same number of divisions for boys and girls. the reason for this is because it is "easier" is terms of scheduling and keeping schools in the same division (partly due to many having one coach for both genders). Presently, the few schools who boys and girls are in separate divisions have some problems. Although 3 divisions may be about right for now, the other sports (team - volleyball, soccer etc.) will be expanding, does that mean cross country need to get a piece of the action? Their is no doubt that expanding football to 7 divisions has helped those kids, those programs and the sport in Ohio. Mor opportunities for kids and schools...and more money $ for all - the OHSAA, communities and schools. Why is volleyball and soccer expanding? Will their kids really have more opportunities? I think that those sports will get the same results as football and cross country could get left out.

Now, IMO track is completely different and believe the OHSAA adn most school administrators think they are the same sport... They are not. so I will post later about that
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I could not agree more.

As far as opportunities go. Cross Country has plenty of opportunities for every kid to participate plenty of times during the season. I don't necessarily think there is an issue. Track and field is a little bit of a different situation. Our program does as much as we can to make sure all of our kids have as many chances to compete as possible. Our league still has dual meets and we have all of our kids participate in all of them. We have our own JV invite. We go to a 9th and 10th grade invite. We run a ridiculous number of kids in distance races and put as many relay team as will fit on the track when we can, Too many schools do not do much to get all their kids chances to compete. My own step son, who went to a different school, would have more than doubled the number of races for his entire HS career in three meets had he gone to the school I coach at and where his step brothers and sister went. He ran 12.02 100m and 53.25 400m. Don't know how good he could have been because he only had those two times ever recorded in a meet as a 10th grader. He ran a leg in the 4x400 4 other times for 6 total races in 3 years. Didn't bother as a senior. Large D1 school.

I was at a company party a month ago and got into conversations with about 4 other couples that also had kids that ran track and they expressed that most of their kids rarely participated in meets. Almost a glorified gym class with a uniform. One school did not run any dual meets and the ones that did limited participation so much that hardly any kids got to participate.

That is the stuff that needs to change. Getting to the state meet is one thing. There needs to be more of an effort to get more kids involved in April. I think that it's at the school level where changes need made.
 
psycho_dad said:
I could not agree more.

As far as opportunities go. Cross Country has plenty of opportunities for every kid to participate plenty of times during the season. I don't necessarily think there is an issue. Track and field is a little bit of a different situation. Our program does as much as we can to make sure all of our kids have as many chances to compete as possible. Our league still has dual meets and we have all of our kids participate in all of them. We have our own JV invite. We go to a 9th and 10th grade invite. We run a ridiculous number of kids in distance races and put as many relay team as will fit on the track when we can, Too many schools do not do much to get all their kids chances to compete. My own step son, who went to a different school, would have more than doubled the number of races for his entire HS career in three meets had he gone to the school I coach at and where his step brothers and sister went. He ran 12.02 100m and 53.25 400m. Don't know how good he could have been because he only had those two times ever recorded in a meet as a 10th grader. He ran a leg in the 4x400 4 other times for 6 total races in 3 years. Didn't bother as a senior. Large D1 school.

I was at a company party a month ago and got into conversations with about 4 other couples that also had kids that ran track and they expressed that most of their kids rarely participated in meets. Almost a glorified gym class with a uniform. One school did not run any dual meets and the ones that did limited participation so much that hardly any kids got to participate.

That is the stuff that needs to change. Getting to the state meet is one thing. There needs to be more of an effort to get more kids involved in April. I think that it's at the school level where changes need made.
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A hundred divisions will not fix that problem. Schools/coaches need to find ways to get all the kids to race at least once a week.
 
CC Track Fan said:
A hundred divisions will not fix that problem. Schools/coaches need to find ways to get all the kids to race at least once a week.
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That's my point. 3 Divisions works for me, and 4 seems to be the most "Fair". I don't really care about 5 or six and I'm actually against it at this time. I was trying to make the point you are making that there really isn't a problem at the OHSAA championship level. District, Regional, State, but rather the bigger issue is at the school and conference level where kids are not getting as much of an opportunity to compete as they should. OATCCC should be looking at ways to promote that rather than trying to add divisions. IMO.
 
psycho_dad said:
That's my point. 3 Divisions works for me, and 4 seems to be the most "Fair". I don't really care about 5 or six and I'm actually against it at this time. I was trying to make the point you are making that there really isn't a problem at the OHSAA championship level. District, Regional, State, but rather the bigger issue is at the school and conference level where kids are not getting as much of an opportunity to compete as they should. OATCCC should be looking at ways to promote that rather than trying to add divisions. IMO.
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I understood your point and completely agree with it just adding my 2 cents.
 
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