Washington Post piece about Ohio high school football

The last time the Democratic party "controlled" the state was 2010ish when the House and Governorship were blue. The Ohio Senate has been red for lord knows how long and the Republican party has controlled both houses of the General Assembly for now over a decade.

The state has had ONE democratic governor in the last 30 years.

Ohio may as well be in the old Solid South

When was the last time Dayton, Columbus, Toledo, Cleveland or Cincinnati had a Republican mayor? This isn't a Governor problem, this is more of a Mayor problem.

People move away from bad areas. They leave the cities because of lack of jobs and good schools. People leave rural areas because of lack of jobs and good schools. They move to the suburbs. Look at the GWOC and GMC schools they all have good numbers for football. Bad policy and people leave just look at California.
 
I think the availability of high paying jobs (for a HS kid) has had an impact on sport participation. A kid can go work for 20 hours a week and bring home north of $300 is certainly appealing to many.
but I don't see a lot of kids working, all fast food place seem to have A LOT of trouble finding kids to work... Lots of community swimming pools have been closed for LACK of lifeguards...

I think kids are not being pushed to play sports or in lot of cases to work....
 
"Getting rides" was necessary and done by us small town hicks 45 years ago - my freshman and sophomore teammates lined up rides with older teammates for whom our dropoff was "on the way." We helped pay gas money (among other things) in exchange. The hardest part actually was getting rides home after games on Friday or Saturday night (we played our home games at a local stadium but had to go back to the HS to shower, etc.)! As noted in the "low score thread" - I am OLD! Come to think of it, I actually rode a bike to 2-a-days most of freshman year. I didn't yet know anyone on the team who drove (that changed by the time 2-a-days ended), my dad was running his business during the day and mom was tending to 4 younger siblings. I would not have dreamed of any other way (and they didn't either). But that sounds like I walked to school through 6 feet of snow and -12 temperatures... lol.
Yeah. I'm from the 80s. I rode my bike everywhere unsupervised. From the country all the way into town and usually back. Strange for a time when a 10-11 year old would be possibly miles away from their parents, no cell phones, etc. In fact, only one time did my mom even get 'worried' that something was wrong when I wasn't home by 6 one summer day.
So on the one hand, we can say "get a ride." .....On the other hand, 30 years later my kid wasn't permitted by her mother to walk 6 blocks to school - it might not be safe (not my stance, drove me nuts). And my kid's friends, classmates and/or teammates had the same parental oversight - they were not permitted to walk. And they didn't share rides - a parent almost ALWAYS picked each one of them up separately- otherwise you weren't a good attentive parent and take that 10 minutes to bond (do I sound like a bitter NIMBY?)

And it's not even the parents. it's the other adults that will call the cops or CPS on unsupervised kids. When I was little we were in an apartment complex. Small complex, but still apartments. The lady downstairs HATED kids, and called the cops on my mom once because me and another kid were playing in 'the street' in front of our apartment. It was the driveway from the road to the parking lot. Cops did come, my mom was deemed fit as they realized it was a garbage complaint, but now... you don't know how crazy people are and how 'by the book' cops, CPS, and the courts are when it comes to children's safety.
And that was 10-15 years ago. So maybe the helicopter-parenting syndrome (but not in the MAC, lol!) is part (although probably not a predominant) explanation for declining participation in school sports today. It's somewhat counter-intuitive that a parent can/will provide rides with a grade school/junior high travel league or rec league soccer practice that takes place in the evening (and not every day), regardless of socio-economic status ---in sports that those of us here think of as secondary. Whereas by the time kids reach high school, most parents' work schedules do not mesh so well with varsity football and basketball practices (or any other sport/co-curricular activity) that usually occur right after school, every day, and end before many parents are off from work. Those of us on this thread cannot imagine that varsity football wouldn't be a hugely greater priority than grade school rec league soccer. But for many parents/families, the rec league soccer is more important to their kids' development than HS football or any other HS sport. I don't agree with that take, but many families follow that logic.
My daughter is in a lot of activities. The number of parents that get WAY too involved in their kids athletic competitions is honestly terrifying. I'm like... it's six year olds kicking a soccer ball around a badly mowed grass field with all the grace of newborn giraffes, and parents get heated over it. I'm just glad my daughter's playing with other kids her age and having fun. What's strange is that though some parents stick with the kids into high school events, I think maybe the kids rebelling from the parents and wanting them to 'leave me alone!' the parents generally do.
After-school jobs are part of the reason too. But there are probably 50 factors. From my perspective, the biggest factor, by far, is the cell-phone/ipad. Kids don't need to socialize in-person (and that socialization was part of the allure of sports in my day). Instead, texting, Instagram, emails all suffice for interpersonal communication. Yes, the high-end athlete uses those technological tools to promote themselves, their teams, etc... but for the 95% who are not elite athletes or in a culture like the MAC (which is the exception and not the norm), technology is not a tool to use to supplement athletics and other social activities. For those 95%, technology is THE social activity.

Don't blame the kids - somehow this happened on our watch.
I've said that, about cell phones/internet/social media, in other threads about attendance (both adults and kids) as a problem. Certainly would be a problem for participation as much as fan support. The Friday night game was a social night for adults, too. You'd talk to friends, neighbors, etc as much as you were watching the game. Kids socialized and it was a quasi-mature time to interact outside of school. Generally, you were unsupervised by still in a contained, mostly safe area. Other than lunch, or a few times in other classes that you were close, that you could talk to your friends. Same as the adults.

Now, everyone has their cell phone, their social media accounts... there is no 'catching up' with people on Friday night. You know far too much about them, honestly, than you should.
 
but I don't see a lot of kids working, all fast food place seem to have A LOT of trouble finding kids to work... Lots of community swimming pools have been closed for LACK of lifeguards...

I think kids are not being pushed to play sports or in lot of cases to work....
I think lots of kids don't like to put the work in for sports or to have a job!!!

and lots of KIDS are just SOFT now a days....
 
but I don't see a lot of kids working, all fast food place seem to have A LOT of trouble finding kids to work... Lots of community swimming pools have been closed for LACK of lifeguards...

I think kids are not being pushed to play sports or in lot of cases to work....
Too many adults desperate for work are taking those jobs. Most of those places would rather have the desperate adult than the possibly aloof kid that walks the moment something happens.
 
Too many adults desperate for work are taking those jobs. Most of those places would rather have the desperate adult than the possibly aloof kid that walks the moment something happens.
lots of adults get hired at jobs, lots of times they don't show up after a couple of days of working.....
 
I think lots of kids don't like to put the work in for sports or to have a job!!!

and lots of KIDS are just SOFT now a days....

Yes todays kids are more soft than in years past but I bet about 40+ years ago there was some guys sitting around a break room saying the same thing about kids of that time with their long hair, listening to that crap called rock-n-roll and smokin pot.

Today’s kids put far more time into football than what I did and I know we put more time into football than the guys before us.

Someone brought up a good point that some of today parents are overly involved. They have their kids in travel sports going all over the state & outside of the state typically once a year. Kids simply get burned out, that has to be a small % of the problem.

Lack of participation is not just because of one thing or because kids are ‘soft’. Adults have more than their fair share of the blame.
 
A Red State with democrats running every “big” city and dominating Public School Boards in Ohio🤷🏼‍♂️
Where I'm currently located, the school boards are very much more Republican than Democrat. However, most of the people on them understand the role of a school board and realize political affiliation doesn't matter in local government
 
Maybe it’s as simple as kids don’t like football as much as they used to.

Basketball seems to have become the sport of choice for many of the inner city Dayton schools. Between aau and fall leagues in the area Dayton kids play basketball all year round.
 
Yes todays kids are more soft than in years past but I bet about 40+ years ago there was some guys sitting around a break room saying the same thing about kids of that time with their long hair, listening to that crap called rock-n-roll and smokin pot.

Today’s kids put far more time into football than what I did and I know we put more time into football than the guys before us.

Someone brought up a good point that some of today parents are overly involved. They have their kids in travel sports going all over the state & outside of the state typically once a year. Kids simply get burned out, that has to be a small % of the problem.

Lack of participation is not just because of one thing or because kids are ‘soft’. Adults have more than their fair share of the blame.
your points are very true... but i didn't smoke pot...beer was my choice LOL!!!

Burnt out is a very real reason...

lots more time is dedicated to each sport

there are a whole bunch of reasons ... I've talked to severaL HC , and they think Football will be very different in Ohio in the years coming up....
 
but I don't see a lot of kids working, all fast food place seem to have A LOT of trouble finding kids to work... Lots of community swimming pools have been closed for LACK of lifeguards...

I think kids are not being pushed to play sports or in lot of cases to work....
I guess that varies from town to town.
 
Maybe it’s as simple as kids don’t like football as much as they used to.

Basketball seems to have become the sport of choice for many of the inner city Dayton schools. Between aau and fall leagues in the area Dayton kids play basketball all year round.
I would agree, I think there is less interest in sports amongst this generation than any other.

Also had read a great article from 2016 that had research that showed about 70 percent of kids who started sports in early elementary were done by the end of junior high. That was in 2016 not sure what that would look like today

here is a link the article I referenced. Sports Participation article from 2016
 
Last edited:
Maybe it’s as simple as kids don’t like football as much as they used to.

Basketball seems to have become the sport of choice for many of the inner city Dayton schools. Between aau and fall leagues in the area Dayton kids play basketball all year round.
Part of this goes back to social media. While the NFL is catching up, the NBA has always been two steps ahead when it comes to promoting through social media. It wasn’t that long ago that the NFL wouldn’t post any highlights of games on Twitter until after the game.

And yes I’m very aware that the NFL is more popular as a whole. This is just an example of how basketball has been marketed towards youths better than football.
 
Part of this goes back to social media. While the NFL is catching up, the NBA has always been two steps ahead when it comes to promoting through social media. It wasn’t that long ago that the NFL wouldn’t post any highlights of games on Twitter until after the game.

And yes I’m very aware that the NFL is more popular as a whole. This is just an example of how basketball has been marketed towards youths better than football.
The NBA has been a huge influence and no doubt LeBron. In terms of Ohio's two pro football teams until recently the Bengals hadn't won a playoff game as long as these kids have been alive and the Browns hadn't even been to one.
 
I hope the people who deride Glenville and coach Ginn read this article and realize how difficult it is for inner-city schools to compete with suburban and private schools. Uphill battle doesn't even BEGIN to describe it
 
When was the last time Dayton, Columbus, Toledo, Cleveland or Cincinnati had a Republican mayor? This isn't a Governor problem, this is more of a Mayor problem.

People move away from bad areas. They leave the cities because of lack of jobs and good schools. People leave rural areas because of lack of jobs and good schools. They move to the suburbs. Look at the GWOC and GMC schools they all have good numbers for football. Bad policy and people leave just look at California.
You have to go back a lot further than that. Homes in cities were expensive. The easy access via car made suburbia available to the masses. Land was cheap, you could have your white picket fence and half acre of land and think you were some big shot. Even if everyone else did the same thing. Meanwhile, they drove into those cities now devoid of their tax revenue to work those high paying city jobs and brought it back to affluent bedroom communities who then pretended as if the suburb was somehow the driver of economic progress.

You do that for a few decades, and the only people left in the city are the ones who couldn't get out.

Eventually, decades of money flowing only one way, saw the cities crumble. Before things like cheap security, cheap electricity for lighting, most of a city at night was a dark, unprotected hellscape. Businesses then left in droves when the cities lacking resources were forced to protect themselves on less and less income. Meanwhile suburbia smiled and scoffed and claimed it was the city's inhabitants that remained being the problem. But then those same inner-ring suburbs befalling the same troubles as their land filled up, their growth stopped, and people moved even further out from the center.

The issue? The US is one of the few countries where cities don't expand with their population growth. Suburbs are somehow seen as 'new cities' of home owners contributing nothing in terms of actual economic production. Sapping it, instead, from the cities that crumble at their center.
 
Or the people wealthy enough not to be affected by higher tax burdens and other negative impacts of declining cities.
There has been a shift among cities for the younger generations to move back to the city where rents became dirt cheap. Though that quickly countered the decline in price. Once again making it too expensive for most of them to survive in the cities as well.

As for the wealthy with the penthouses, and larger estates inside dying city limits (think along North and South Parks east side of Cleveland, near Lee/MLK, there's some wealth but then you go east to Shaker Heights and the ridiculously becomes more extreme. Especially in a state like Ohio where property is far cheaper than most of the large cities in the US. They operate an entirely separate plane of financials than most people.
 
There's also just *less kids*

The days of being able to afford the big families of 4-5 kids that were common in the 90s and 2000s is long gone.
 
Doesn't the OHSAA publish their own data about sports participation? Or is that just the number of schools participating in each sport?
Ohio Football participation peaked in 2008-2009 with 55,392 boys participating in the sport. In 2018-2019 that number dropped to 39,794. For 2021-2022 that number rose to 40,267. For 2022-2023, the number rose again to 43,020.

Numbers were not recorded for 2019-2020 & 2020-2021 for obvious reasons.
 
I know of multiple teachers/coaches in the area that have repeatedly told me that they are shocked at how many talented high school football players arent eligible to play and dont even make an attempt to make it happen. Even with tutoring, etc... some just dont see the need or have the want to put in the effort.
 
I’d argue the mass flood of people moving to the South has more to do with it
I agree. My brother moved to Florida in 1983 from Ohio. We were talking and I asked him how when we were growing up in the 60's and 70's college football was dominated mostly by the midwest teams NotreDame,Ohio State,Michigan ,Nebraska Oklahoma.etc Now the Isouth and Southern schools dominate,Alabama,Georgia,Lsu, Clemson etc. My brothers response well you never had the population like today. More kids participate in high school football in the South than anywhere else in the country. Population growth due to jobs moving South.
 
I agree. My brother moved to Florida in 1983 from Ohio. We were talking and I asked him how when we were growing up in the 60's and 70's college football was dominated mostly by the midwest teams NotreDame,Ohio State,Michigan ,Nebraska Oklahoma.etc Now the Isouth and Southern schools dominate,Alabama,Georgia,Lsu, Clemson etc. My brothers response well you never had the population like today. More kids participate in high school football in the South than anywhere else in the country. Population growth due to jobs moving South.
Another factor is the time commitment with high school football. Football used to be 10 to 12 games September to the end of November. Now their playing 15 to 16 games starting mid August into December. Also, they run one sports season into another and kids year round are training, going to camps, playing aau ball, travel teams, lifting, weight training. They have no time to enjoy their summer , work in the summers. It's football all the time. Kids get burned out with it . I as a fan don't like that they keep adding more games, dragging out the seasons. In a lot of these sports the regular season doesn't mean much. They let everyone in the playoffs anyway.
 
I agree. My brother moved to Florida in 1983 from Ohio. We were talking and I asked him how when we were growing up in the 60's and 70's college football was dominated mostly by the midwest teams NotreDame,Ohio State,Michigan ,Nebraska Oklahoma.etc Now the Isouth and Southern schools dominate,Alabama,Georgia,Lsu, Clemson etc. My brothers response well you never had the population like today. More kids participate in high school football in the South than anywhere else in the country. Population growth due to jobs moving South.


That is one of the factors for college football being dominated by northern teams in the 1960/70’s. Another factor was integration. Northern teams would recruit & play African American players. Teams such as Alabama did not. 56% of African Americans live in the Southeastern US and approximately 70-75% of D1 Power 5 football players on scholarship are AA. The southern universities are able to recruit local kids to their school easier than say a Minnesota or Michigan St is of recruiting them to play 10 hrs away in bad weather.
 
I’d argue the mass flood of people moving to the South has more to do with it
BINGO, Public student enrolment is down on average 3% in most areas of the state.

That on top of pay to play fees has created a steep reduction in participation in All sports at most public schools.

In SW Ohio there are many schools not fielding Freshman teams or, JV teams in many of their varsity sports.

Middle school programs are also struggling with many districts not offering activities. Add in other options for students and families with club activities and we are where we are today.

OHSAA has also raised membership fees per sport offered for schools that contributes to the cost to field programs.

Another area schools are struggling in is finding coaching. Most coaching positions cost the coach $$$ as many are volunteering their time or only getting paid $1200 or less to coach. After the required PAP, compliance Training, Fuel cost, snack cost etc. Many chose to just coach club, just do private instruction or walk away from coaching.
 
but I don't see a lot of kids working, all fast food place seem to have A LOT of trouble finding kids to work... Lots of community swimming pools have been closed for LACK of lifeguards...

I think kids are not being pushed to play sports or in lot of cases to work....
Most students get a driver’s license now at 18. If one does get their license at 16 most cannot afford a car or the other areas that comes with owning a car. (Registration, Insurance, Fuel, or upkeep).

When I was 16 in 82, I had 2 cars that I picked up cheap and got running 77 Pinto 70 Galaxy 500. (Our family of 5 kids had 7 vehicles and everyone had a job). Cars now require more expensive parts to fix or specialized tooling that most families do not have or the skill needed to fix them.

Back in the 70-90s I would say there were much more student workers 14-18 years of age than there are now. In some areas in Ohi t he average first job is at 18….
Our Governor has a task force that is struggling to address the forecasted worker shortage especially skilled worker shortages as many receiving college degrees are not staying home but taking their education to other states. More money for schools to develop driver training programs will help but not address the other areas mentioned above with those looking for their first car.

https://governor.ohio.gov/media/executive-orders/Executive-Order-2023-05D-01092023
 
Last edited:
That is completely foreign to me. In my area, the number of kids getting their licenses at 16 is probably 99%.
Wow that is well above state averages.

A driver’s license has been a graduation credential for 3 years now in Ohio to try to get more students licensed. My CTE district is the largest school district by area in Ohio (about the size of Rhode Island) with 36 feeder school districts . We have a couple districts that are close to the 75% reporting at graduation or slightly above. These are also in higher income demographic areas.
Most districts are well under 50% especially the inner-city districts and Districts just outside of the city of Cincinnati and inbetwen Cincy and Columbus. ODE in an effort to get more students to get a license has also made getting an OHSAA officiating permitt a graduation point. I doubt it has any impact as most students not playing sports have little intrest in officiating middle school sports.

https://www.ohsaa.org/news-media/ar...ry-credential-by-ohio-department-of-education
 
Last edited:
Top