Track and Field stuff

DI is so deep - that 24th team will will still be one of the top 50 or so teams at the state meet across divisions.
You could say that about every sport but basketball because it is so 1 or 2 player driven. But the 24th best D1 football or soccer is most certainly top 50 in the state because they have so many for athletes to draw from and that is why states have divisions.

I do like the idea of taking more individual runners per number of teams in division in D1 than other divisions because so many very good D1 runners got left out in the past.
 
A simple solution would be take total number of teams that competed at the district level and divide by 4. Most D1 schools do not field competitive XC programs so out of the 67 girls teams - 20-30 will not impact the field. Division II is now loaded and hurts every school under 300. This model has more issues than the previous.
What is the standard for "competitive" for "Most D1 schools do not field competitive XC programs?"
 
We don't run finishLynx and have no issue using FAT for dual or double dual meets, but when we go to an away meet where they use Lynx, it's a mess. What is the easiest way to just have Lynx time and put results on the scoreboard and not have to have start lists for the races?

What is the easiest way to do a dual meet or double dual with lynx is probably the better question?
 
We don't run finishLynx and have no issue using FAT for dual or double dual meets, but when we go to an away meet where they use Lynx, it's a mess. What is the easiest way to just have Lynx time and put results on the scoreboard and not have to have start lists for the races?

What is the easiest way to do a dual meet or double dual with lynx is probably the better question?
If I am understanding the question correctly, you could look at RunMeet in Athletic.net. You can adjust heats, add heats and delete heats on the fly. With a good pair of people clerking and an iPad, you can do those adjustments at the line.

Tangential Note: At our home invite TimingFirst brings iPads for the field events which helps field event entries get adjusted and field event results get posted much more quickly.
 
If I am understanding the question correctly, you could look at RunMeet in Athletic.net. You can adjust heats, add heats and delete heats on the fly. With a good pair of people clerking and an iPad, you can do those adjustments at the line.

Tangential Note: At our home invite TimingFirst brings iPads for the field events which helps field event entries get adjusted and field event results get posted much more quickly.
We use lynx camera to time individuals only and give them FAT time which they report to their coach - the camera replaces the stop watch and determines who is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in a close race.

If you are using meet manager for heats and lane assignments and Lynx camera at a dual or tri meet it's gonna be a long night. Give the kid their time, write it down, and move on.
 
We use lynx camera to time individuals only and give them FAT time which they report to their coach - the camera replaces the stop watch and determines who is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in a close race.

If you are using meet manager for heats and lane assignments and Lynx camera at a dual or tri meet it's gonna be a long night. Give the kid their time, write it down, and move on.
Ok, that makes sense to me. That is how we do it. We clerk on the fly. Have the kids come back in their lanes for lane races write their names down on the score sheet and by that time, the FAT times are up on the scoreboard and are written into the sheet. The distance races are just given times and anything too close to call can be looked at on the video, but I'm not sure that has happened very often if at all.

We pull kids from events and swap kids and have tons of reasons why what we planned does not end up happening, so to me it makes no sense for having a dual meet seeded and run with meet manager.

We have gotten the complaint that our Dual meets are not included in Milesplit. I do see the problem at the District meet where our 100m guy has a slower seed time than what he ran at a dual meet or two. Our second hurdler etc... I guess we could take the time to go back and enter the meet results, but I really don't want to do that. I don't know where I would find the time to be honest.
 
Last week we went to a quad meet where they used a Lynx and every kid had a competitor number written on their right hand, in order to speed up the process of getting/verifying names. It worked fairly well. Writing 200 names on hands did not take as much time as I thought it would. There were some errors with names, but each coach is able to go back and edit the names (only the meet manager can edit the times/marks) on the results, which makes it easier to get correct results.

I still find it is significantly faster using Athletic.net to manage the meet entries, and adjusting on the fly.
 
Is there a way to submit a time / mark from a dual meet to milesplit without having to submit the entire meet? We finally had a nice night to compete last evening and had a lot of PR's and marks that would be leading the District. We as coaches really don't care much as we keep stats for all the kids, but for some reason this season, parents expect everything to be up on milesplit. (Of course, I have the other parents that at senior night last night asked if this was the first meet his all-ohio in track and cc twins were running in this season.)
 
Is there a way to submit a time / mark from a dual meet to milesplit without having to submit the entire meet? We finally had a nice night to compete last evening and had a lot of PR's and marks that would be leading the District. We as coaches really don't care much as we keep stats for all the kids, but for some reason this season, parents expect everything to be up on milesplit. (Of course, I have the other parents that at senior night last night asked if this was the first meet his all-ohio in track and cc twins were running in this season.)
Every meet should be on Milesplit, even if it's just a dual. Uploading the results takes less than a minute.
 
Every meet should be on Milesplit, even if it's just a dual. Uploading the results takes less than a minute.
It takes hours to put a dual meet into a meet manager to be able to upload. We have FAT times, but we do not seed a dual meet and put it into meet manager. We hand write it.
 
It does not take that long. Download entries from Milesplit and it seeds itself.
We do not do dual meets with entries from milesplit. It is a competitive thing. I do not feel I should have the other teams entries so I know their strategy and I'm not giving them mine ahead of time. We do the meet on the fly and get it done fast. My kids are not set in their events and the number of changes we make between boys and girls is a lot some meets. These are meets I'm able to get all my kids involved and if we have a meet won, I might pull people and put others in a position they have never been in. I might pull kids from the 800 after the 1600 and change out my entire 3200. My best hurdler is also my best 100,200 and 400 runner. He is completely flexible. If a high jumper is having a good day, I might pull him from something to allow him to stay on that focus. Having a bad day jumping, I might decide to put him in the 200 to give him a positive to end on. My 3rd or 4th hurdler that has been struggling might just be entered in the 100H. They have a positive result finally, so I might put them in the 300h. A few other coaches in our league are the same and it would be a nightmare. Just last week we had an illness go through the team and 10 kids missed. Sometimes what is easy is not best for the kids. IMO
 
Divsion II Northeast Boardman Region is excited to bring in Division I Regional Champions (Hudson Boys and Wadsworth girls) plus many other big schools. Talking to many coaches, they are shaking their heads but at least some got what they wanted. Woodridge drops down to D3 so that's the trade off. Is Woodride excited to see zero competition until Columbus? Good luck to Cloverleaf , Hawken, Bay, Marligton, Tallmadge, Salem, CVCA , Canfield, etc. - quality built and respected D2 programs with great coaches and will suffer from this change.
 
Divsion II Northeast Boardman Region is excited to bring in Division I Regional Champions (Hudson Boys and Wadsworth girls) plus many other big schools. Talking to many coaches, they are shaking their heads but at least some got what they wanted. Woodridge drops down to D3 so that's the trade off. Is Woodride excited to see zero competition until Columbus? Good luck to Cloverleaf , Hawken, Bay, Marligton, Tallmadge, Salem, CVCA , Canfield, etc. - quality built and respected D2 programs with great coaches and will suffer from this change.
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Yeah, it will be rough not facing competition until the state meet.
1724Woodridge High SchoolPENINSULANortheast206AA200AA
 
Interesting Results.

I have a Hurdler / Sprinter that seems to run faster on bad weather days. 10.98 - 100m in the rain and cold April 5th this year. 38.90 300h in snow last year. 14.59 - 110H and 39.30 300H in the rain this past Saturday. Pulled a hamstring in 80 degree weather last year. Ever heard of a bad weather sprinter? 22.15 200 on a day that was under 45 degrees too. Every PR has been 45 degrees or under. 200 is the only one without rain or snow.
 
@psycho_dad Our meet last night was run via RunMeet on AthleticLive (Athletic.net). It allows you to add athletes, remove athletes and change lanes/heats on the fly, with a point and click interface. As long as you have a hotspot or good school WiFi coverage you can easily do everything on the fly. There is an iOS app that allows field events to be done in the app, which saves a lot of typing. Given the size of our team, we still do entries (via Athletic.net) ahead of time, but then can do all the changes as the meet progresses. But you can do it all on the fly if you want.
 
Not a fan of the preferred lanes in the distance races. Makes zero sense.
I disagree. But lanes should be determined if the race starts on waterfall, lanes, or alleys.

Most timing companies will have the race numbers in order from #1 the fastest to the slowest. I don't think this is always advantageous to the better-seeded times.

This does come into play at the indoor state meet. I believe the higher numbers should be in the second alley.

Don't get me wrong I love a good waterfall start and believe it helps create a competitive environment from the gun. Especially for JV races. If officials always put kids into 1 or 2 turn staggers then the JV kids don't get the bump and grind that they need psychologically to be competitive.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.
 
Not a fan of the preferred lanes in the distance races. Makes zero sense.
I like having the #1 and #9 in the same alley (and 2/10, 3/11, etc) versus the possibility of having #1 and #2 in the same alley and having to fight each other for position. I do wish those pairs were randomly assigned to a lane, but trying to do that in Hy-tek is a bit of a hassle and probably prone to human error.
 
I like having the #1 and #9 in the same alley (and 2/10, 3/11, etc) versus the possibility of having #1 and #2 in the same alley and having to fight each other for position. I do wish those pairs were randomly assigned to a lane, but trying to do that in Hy-tek is a bit of a hassle and probably prone to human error.
The implication is that the #1 lane is the preferred lane. That means that lane 8 is the least preferred. So #9 ranked runner gets a better lane than all but the #1 ranked? Why would it be any less of a fight between #1 and #9 than #1 and #2? We are talking the start of the race when everyone is fresh. Just as much of a chance of #9 running like an sweetie than #2. This is a solution to something that is not a problem.

I personally don't think lane one is the best lane for a distance runner. Why isn't it lane 8 for the 1600 or 3200? Lane 4?
 
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I really hate to do this but, Lakeview should no longer be allowed to host a District. Once again the announcer spent the entire meet berating everyone in the place. Not allowed to warm up anywhere. We won both the boys and girls and Streetsboro finished 2nd in both and both coaching staffs walked out of the place mad for the 5th straight year. Could go through a list of unacceptable things, but will keep it short. Terrible weather to start day one and they refused to change starting heights. 6 girls made opening height in the HJ. 17 girls got to end their season with NH and 2 didn't even bother. Long jump. In the boys, there were competitors in the 4x200. Checked out to check in for the relay. Not permitted to leave the bullpen and then at LJ there were some they were going to not allow to jump in the finals if they did not check in. They couldn't as they were getting ready for the 4x200. I had to go and get the head official to come and escort my kid from the bullpen to check in for the LJ finals. ( A lot more went on, but won't get into that.) Shor story long, finals did not even go off until well after the 4x200

Fast forward to the second day and girls LJ. They had 3 sets of 3 girls jump in the finals with 2min between jumps. Not all 9 at the same time. One girl took all 3 of her final jumps alone. I honestly thought it was warm ups for the first 3 girls and was not really paying attention. It was only after the competition that we figured out what had gone on. Part of the problem is that as coaches are involved with getting one mess corrected, another bigger mess is taking place that you are missing. I was involved with 3 arguments with officials.

Our girl was credited with an incorrect mark which put her in 4th in the long jump. It was her worst jump. They had the feet wrong. Not wanting to screw a kid that deserved to advance, Coach Howard was at the timing trailer trying to correct that wrong and I was getting something else corrected at the bullpen when the 300 hurdles started with one of my kids and someone from another team not even in their blocks. Blocks were broken and they were swapping them out when the starter brought them to set and fired the gun. Two kids were totally screwed.

So many other examples it's not funny.

Because of DQ in the 4x400 which knocked us out of 4th and way back to 6th, we were given the chance to re-run by ourselves. I went to get the relay card to see who I had left that I could run. They gave me the stack of relay cards to go through and I see that the kids I ran were not the kids checked off on the card. If that was wrong, who knows what else was wrong. That could be a huge issue. If the wrong kids are marked, it's possible that it can be mistaken that a kid ran 5 events when they did not. Nowhere in the results do they have names on the relays.

Worst meet of the season by far and the most important to this point. I can't wait for the new divisions just for the hope we never have to go there for a District again. I'm sure they are good people, but terrible hosts and sub par officials. Throw in the worst concessions of the decade too.
 
I really hate to do this but, Lakeview should no longer be allowed to host a District. Once again the announcer spent the entire meet berating everyone in the place. Not allowed to warm up anywhere. We won both the boys and girls and Streetsboro finished 2nd in both and both coaching staffs walked out of the place mad for the 5th straight year. Could go through a list of unacceptable things, but will keep it short. Terrible weather to start day one and they refused to change starting heights. 6 girls made opening height in the HJ. 17 girls got to end their season with NH and 2 didn't even bother. Long jump. In the boys, there were competitors in the 4x200. Checked out to check in for the relay. Not permitted to leave the bullpen and then at LJ there were some they were going to not allow to jump in the finals if they did not check in. They couldn't as they were getting ready for the 4x200. I had to go and get the head official to come and escort my kid from the bullpen to check in for the LJ finals. ( A lot more went on, but won't get into that.) Shor story long, finals did not even go off until well after the 4x200

Fast forward to the second day and girls LJ. They had 3 sets of 3 girls jump in the finals with 2min between jumps. Not all 9 at the same time. One girl took all 3 of her final jumps alone. I honestly thought it was warm ups for the first 3 girls and was not really paying attention. It was only after the competition that we figured out what had gone on. Part of the problem is that as coaches are involved with getting one mess corrected, another bigger mess is taking place that you are missing. I was involved with 3 arguments with officials.

Our girl was credited with an incorrect mark which put her in 4th in the long jump. It was her worst jump. They had the feet wrong. Not wanting to screw a kid that deserved to advance, Coach Howard was at the timing trailer trying to correct that wrong and I was getting something else corrected at the bullpen when the 300 hurdles started with one of my kids and someone from another team not even in their blocks. Blocks were broken and they were swapping them out when the starter brought them to set and fired the gun. Two kids were totally screwed.

So many other examples it's not funny.

Because of DQ in the 4x400 which knocked us out of 4th and way back to 6th, we were given the chance to re-run by ourselves. I went to get the relay card to see who I had left that I could run. They gave me the stack of relay cards to go through and I see that the kids I ran were not the kids checked off on the card. If that was wrong, who knows what else was wrong. That could be a huge issue. If the wrong kids are marked, it's possible that it can be mistaken that a kid ran 5 events when they did not. Nowhere in the results do they have names on the relays.

Worst meet of the season by far and the most important to this point. I can't wait for the new divisions just for the hope we never have to go there for a District again. I'm sure they are good people, but terrible hosts and sub par officials. Throw in the worst concessions of the decade too.
It is more and more obvious that some officials are not in this for the kids, but for their own embellishment. They care about how “official” the meet appears and reflects on them. This is a common psychosis among those who peruse positions of power, and authority. I can tell you that this is not the case with most track and field officials. Wednesday I witnessed multiple officials laughing and interacting with the kids and coaches in such a positive light! Those are the ones that are patient with the kids and I saw them helping some very nervous athletes. This is what we need more of, and it is the job of the OHSAA to facilitate competent, capable individuals that realize it is not about them, and is about these young men and women.
 
It is more and more obvious that some officials are not in this for the kids, but for their own embellishment. They care about how “official” the meet appears and reflects on them. This is a common psychosis among those who peruse positions of power, and authority. I can tell you that this is not the case with most track and field officials. Wednesday I witnessed multiple officials laughing and interacting with the kids and coaches in such a positive light! Those are the ones that are patient with the kids and I saw them helping some very nervous athletes. This is what we need more of, and it is the job of the OHSAA to facilitate competent, capable individuals that realize it is not about them, and is about these young men and women.
I agree. Last night for the first time it crossed my mind of when I might be done coaching. I am tired of being yelled at and watching kids being yelled at by officials. First, there are too many stupid you aren't allowed here and you can't do that and blah blah blah rules. There are more you aren't allowed to be here rules than there are actual track and field rules. The same official that royally botched up the LJ at the District was in charge of the same event at the Regional. While YELLING at a coach who was grabbing the relay cards and a pen from one of the other coaches on his staff for not being allowed in the area, she missed a 6" foul. She was also yelling at kids warming up on the track that had nothing to do with the LJ. I got yelled at, not asked in a normal voice, to get out of the little stands they had by the PV where I had gone to sit after the first flight of the LJ. The LJ and PV are right there together. I had the proper color wrist band for the LJ, but not the PV. I was the only person sitting there at the time and could clearly see the LJ. I didn't want to be in the way at the LJ, but close enough to know what was going on in case my kid made finals.

Electronic devices not allowed! 2 hours before the first event! Once the meet starts, fine, 2 hours before that? Let the kids be kids. Stop threatening them with disqualification for having headphones around their neck 2 hours before the first event on the track. Stop threatening them with disqualification for coming over to ask a coach a question and having a toe in the restricted area. I watched a kid be threatened with DQ for not having his jersey on during warm ups. You can warm up with a T-shirt on over your jersey, but you can't warm up with the same T-shirt and then put your jersey on over top of it for the competition. An in the face yelling and threatening. Meanwhile out at the Shot put and Discus, they are all having a fun time. Team camps next to them. Lax Uniform standards. Clapping and cheering. But step inside the track area and doom and gloom and an "I will DQ you every 3 minutes.

It's a track meet. You should be allowed near the track. People will make mistakes and you can calmly make things right.

They botched the results of the boys 4x200. My kids went on a roller coaster ride where they went from 3rd overall to 5th to 9th. They accepted it and know that fair is fair. Right is right. Clock don't lie.

I watch as kids are great sports cheering for kids from other teams. Respecting great performances and really showing why I love the sport so much. INSPITE of the being yelled at for hours. Let the kids be kids. Let them have fun. Stop yelling at them.

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Make sense of the NOTES.
 
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Some bad news out of the D3 North Royalton Region: Front runner in the state for the 400 and 200 and one of the best in the 100- Drew MODELSKI from Lowellville, went down during his 200 on weds with an injury.

Additionally, Danny Milburn from United took a fall during his 100 and did not run in the 200. They had two of the best times in the state.
 
Last year I was told the stands for the LJ were for parents only. I had on my media credential and it was clearly visible, which I showed her. She said "I said parents only." I said, "How about this? You and I walk over to the meet director (who I had known for 40 years) and let's see what he says."
Her response, "Just don't make noise."
OK Karen.
 
Why is it so hard to find Ohio Boys / Girls Regional Track Results ? Mile Split has two Regionals on its website. !!! Thats It. SMH

Not good for the Sport . You go thru the Official OHSAA Track Website and thats all you can find.

Numerous Google searches leads you to the same dead ends. It shouldn't be that difficult
 
Why is it so hard to find Ohio Boys / Girls Regional Track Results ? Mile Split has two Regionals on its website. !!! Thats It. SMH

Not good for the Sport . You go thru the Official OHSAA Track Website and thats all you can find.

Numerous Google searches leads you to the same dead ends. It shouldn't be that difficult
All 12 regions are listed, all 12 have "Live Results" links.
 
I agree. Last night for the first time it crossed my mind of when I might be done coaching. I am tired of being yelled at and watching kids being yelled at by officials. First, there are too many stupid you aren't allowed here and you can't do that and blah blah blah rules. There are more you aren't allowed to be here rules than there are actual track and field rules. The same official that royally botched up the LJ at the District was in charge of the same event at the Regional. While YELLING at a coach who was grabbing the relay cards and a pen from one of the other coaches on his staff for not being allowed in the area, she missed a 6" foul. She was also yelling at kids warming up on the track that had nothing to do with the LJ. I got yelled at, not asked in a normal voice, to get out of the little stands they had by the PV where I had gone to sit after the first flight of the LJ. The LJ and PV are right there together. I had the proper color wrist band for the LJ, but not the PV. I was the only person sitting there at the time and could clearly see the LJ. I didn't want to be in the way at the LJ, but close enough to know what was going on in case my kid made finals.

Electronic devices not allowed! 2 hours before the first event! Once the meet starts, fine, 2 hours before that? Let the kids be kids. Stop threatening them with disqualification for having headphones around their neck 2 hours before the first event on the track. Stop threatening them with disqualification for coming over to ask a coach a question and having a toe in the restricted area. I watched a kid be threatened with DQ for not having his jersey on during warm ups. You can warm up with a T-shirt on over your jersey, but you can't warm up with the same T-shirt and then put your jersey on over top of it for the competition. An in the face yelling and threatening. Meanwhile out at the Shot put and Discus, they are all having a fun time. Team camps next to them. Lax Uniform standards. Clapping and cheering. But step inside the track area and doom and gloom and an "I will DQ you every 3 minutes.

It's a track meet. You should be allowed near the track. People will make mistakes and you can calmly make things right.

They botched the results of the boys 4x200. My kids went on a roller coaster ride where they went from 3rd overall to 5th to 9th. They accepted it and know that fair is fair. Right is right. Clock don't lie.

I watch as kids are great sports cheering for kids from other teams. Respecting great performances and really showing why I love the sport so much. INSPITE of the being yelled at for hours. Let the kids be kids. Let them have fun. Stop yelling at them.

View attachment 82099Make sense of the NOTES.
That's a far too common occurence when attending track meets in that part of the state. There are too many rude officials in that area who act like it is a privilege to watch them work a meet.

Years ago, I was in the long jump coaches' box at an early season invitational in that area. The official was constantly scolding us about too many coaches from a single school as well as a parent here and a parent there being in the box. Eventually, a kid steps onto the runway for an attempt. His coach tells him, "don't look at the board, I'll tell you when to jump." In midair, we realize they're still raking the pit. The kid narrowly avoids being impaled on a rake, and the official proceeds to blame the incident on his being distracted by too many coaches in the box. Nice try official, but you made no effort to either block off the runway or delay calling the competitor up until it was clear to make an attempt. About 5 years later at an XC meet in that area, I was jogging outside the double white lines next to a section of the course. The bulk of the field caught me and passed me while in that section. That same official was known by some at that meet for his longstanding tradition of plunking down in his lawn chair and eating Cheetos all meet long while officiating his section of the course. He called me over after the field passed and told me, "you better not be pacing anybody." I told him, "I don't have anybody in this race," nevermind that the racers' pace was significantly faster than my jogging pace.

During years my school's track program was in D2, we had to compete in that area for districts. The venue is not very user-friendly to begin with (no PV facility, and you're only allowed to get from 1 side of the stadium to the other via 1 end of the track where there is almost no space b/w the track and the outer wall). There were a few years when my school was the only 1 to compete in PV. They refused to accommodate us by letting our kids vault at another district site closer to us like North Canton or Norwayne where our girls were competing in D3. Instead, they sent our vaulters to Austintown to vault alongside the DI kids, so our PV coach had to choose where to go. In later years after we dropped to D3, other schools at our end of the district were the only ones competing in the PV. They allowed those vaulters to compete at North Canton. This year, they allowed them to compete at Manchester. When we were still in D2, we lobbied to have the district meet moved to a more suitable facility, but it will never happen. The current site has been used for district meets dating back to the late 1920s. That meet will be theirs as long as they want it.
 
That's a far too common occurence when attending track meets in that part of the state. There are too many rude officials in that area who act like it is a privilege to watch them work a meet.

Years ago, I was in the long jump coaches' box at an early season invitational in that area. The official was constantly scolding us about too many coaches from a single school as well as a parent here and a parent there being in the box. Eventually, a kid steps onto the runway for an attempt. His coach tells him, "don't look at the board, I'll tell you when to jump." In midair, we realize they're still raking the pit. The kid narrowly avoids being impaled on a rake, and the official proceeds to blame the incident on his being distracted by too many coaches in the box. Nice try official, but you made no effort to either block off the runway or delay calling the competitor up until it was clear to make an attempt. About 5 years later at an XC meet in that area, I was jogging outside the double white lines next to a section of the course. The bulk of the field caught me and passed me while in that section. That same official was known by some at that meet for his longstanding tradition of plunking down in his lawn chair and eating Cheetos all meet long while officiating his section of the course. He called me over after the field passed and told me, "you better not be pacing anybody." I told him, "I don't have anybody in this race," nevermind that the racers' pace was significantly faster than my jogging pace.

During years my school's track program was in D2, we had to compete in that area for districts. The venue is not very user-friendly to begin with (no PV facility, and you're only allowed to get from 1 side of the stadium to the other via 1 end of the track where there is almost no space b/w the track and the outer wall). There were a few years when my school was the only 1 to compete in PV. They refused to accommodate us by letting our kids vault at another district site closer to us like North Canton or Norwayne where our girls were competing in D3. Instead, they sent our vaulters to Austintown to vault alongside the DI kids, so our PV coach had to choose where to go. In later years after we dropped to D3, other schools at our end of the district were the only ones competing in the PV. They allowed those vaulters to compete at North Canton. This year, they allowed them to compete at Manchester. When we were still in D2, we lobbied to have the district meet moved to a more suitable facility, but it will never happen. The current site has been used for district meets dating back to the late 1920s. That meet will be theirs as long as they want it.
That's what happens when things are based off of seniority and not skill-level
 
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