Top Team in the State

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University may have established themselves as the top team in the state yesterday. At St. Francis they took on St. X; Saline (top team in Michigan) and the Knights, beating them all. Below are the event winners:

University School 172, Tol. St. Francis 142
University School 164.5, Saline (Mi) 150.5
University School 161, Cin. St. Xavier 151
200MR: US (Stang, Schneider, Stack, Malone) 1:36.69. 200 free: Gaudiani (US) 143.55. 200IM: Boland (S) 1:56.89. 50 free: Malone (US) 21.79. Diving: Szegedi (SF) 299.00. 100 fly: Boland (S) 51.74. 100 free: Whitener (S) 47.98. 500 free: Gaudiani (US) 4:42.59. 200FR: US (Malone, Stewart-Bates, Gaudiani, Crane) 1:28.64. 100 back: Stang (US) 53.01. 100 breast: Malone (US) 59.19. 400FR: Saline 3:13.77.

Unfortunately, only scores for University were posted. So don't know how the meet scored between St. Francis & St. X. Would love to see full results posted. I'm certain that this was a very competive meet throughout the lineup. Based on the scores, I would imagine each team swam 3 to 4 per event. Tomorrow St. Francis & University will swim at Carmel (the top team in Indiana). That should be another great meet. Carmel has one of the best high school pools in the country.
 
 
Don't have the scores, but St. X beat St. Francis, and St. Francis beat Saline. So I am assuming St. X also beat Saline.

US beat St. X, St. F, Saline
St. X. beat St. F, Saline (?)
St. F. beat Saline.
 
University has such a strong program, but it does concern me that the days of public schools competing at the top of the state level are done. University, St. Francis, St. Charles, St. X. UA may be one of the only competitive public schools left and it is their sports heritage that moves some athletes into their public district.
 
The top 10 in D1 last year:

1 Cincinnati St. Xavier 228
2 Toledo St. Francis De Sales 218
3 Upper Arlington 187
4 Columbus St. Charles 164
5 Centerville 155
6 North Canton Hoover 120
7 Loveland 94
8 Solon 90
9 Canfield 81
10 Hudson 66

Only 3 of the 10 are private. The same in D2:

1 University 298
2 Cincinnati Wyoming 250
3 Sandusky Perkins 143
4 Dayton Oakwood 133
5 Columbus Academy 119
6 Cleveland Orange 110
7 Chagrin Falls 86
8 Columbus Bishop Hartley 84
9 Richfield Revere 82
10 Cincinnati Mariemont 67
 
preeder61 said:
University has such a strong program, but it does concern me that the days of public schools competing at the top of the state level are done. University, St. Francis, St. Charles, St. X. UA may be one of the only competitive public schools left and it is their sports heritage that moves some athletes into their public district.
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Sadly it may be an issue of economics for many families and some school districts today. Swimming year round for a club team is expensive especially as the kid moves up in training and pool time. Whether you send your child to a private or public school, it costs a lot of bucks to live today and for schools to offer all the services needed for kids today.
 
Comment on fairness

The list is a bit deceptive. Since the overwhelming majority of schools are public, the 30% representation of private schools on the list still reflects inequity. Also, it is not a coincidence that both state winners last year and many years back are private schools with strong swimming traditions. It is and will continue to be difficult for public schools to compete. Only those schools like UA and Centerville, with strong traditions, large numbers, good club support and money will really able to compete right now and in the near future. On the other hand, one could argue that there isn't any real difference between a swimmer moving to a district because of their high school swim team and a family choosing a private school outside a district boundary because of their swim team?

While I respect the dedication and success of St X and US swimmers and coaches, I believe the formula for their success is a type of "silent" recruitment where swimmers go outside of their community (and often religeon) to be a part of a winning program. I would concede that strong academics also plays a role. I do not believe this system, however, is the best for the sport as a whole or at all fair to the average school district swim program. As a supporter of public schools and of equity in competition, I believe one way to fight this is to have multiple local communities with good club programs and good swim facilities as well as to promote good high school swim coaches over coaches that just happen to teach in a district and know little about the sport. Good examples right now in central Ohio are Worthington and New Albany. These teams may not be able to win their high school district, but definitely provide competition at a strong level and prevent "super teams" from dominating at the high school level. Wouldn't St Charles and UA love to pluck a few swimmers from these programs if they could. The fact that they can't and the success of these "second tier" teams is directly responsible for teams like St Charles and UA being a notch below St X and US at the state level, but it ultimately leads to more equity and more interesting (and local) competition. Let's face it, the state meet most years in high school swimming has become a formality every year with the winners (usually St X and US) being obvious before the races even take place. Very boring.
 
scwat said:
The list is a bit deceptive. Since the overwhelming majority of schools are public, the 30% representation of private schools on the list still reflects inequity. Also, it is not a coincidence that both state winners last year and many years back are private schools with strong swimming traditions. It is and will continue to be difficult for public schools to compete. Only those schools like UA and Centerville, with strong traditions, large numbers, good club support and money will really able to compete right now and in the near future. On the other hand, one could argue that there isn't any real difference between a swimmer moving to a district because of their high school swim team and a family choosing a private school outside a district boundary because of their swim team?

While I respect the dedication and success of St X and US swimmers and coaches, I believe the formula for their success is a type of "silent" recruitment where swimmers go outside of their community (and often religeon) to be a part of a winning program. I would concede that strong academics also plays a role. I do not believe this system, however, is the best for the sport as a whole or at all fair to the average school district swim program. As a supporter of public schools and of equity in competition, I believe one way to fight this is to have multiple local communities with good club programs and good swim facilities as well as to promote good high school swim coaches over coaches that just happen to teach in a district and know little about the sport. Good examples right now in central Ohio are Worthington and New Albany. These teams may not be able to win their high school district, but definitely provide competition at a strong level and prevent "super teams" from dominating at the high school level. Wouldn't St Charles and UA love to pluck a few swimmers from these programs if they could. The fact that they can't and the success of these "second tier" teams is directly responsible for teams like St Charles and UA being a notch below St X and US at the state level, but it ultimately leads to more equity and more interesting (and local) competition. Let's face it, the state meet most years in high school swimming has become a formality every year with the winners (usually St X and US) being obvious before the races even take place. Very boring.
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State meet should be Public in one division and Private in another IMHO.
 
Anonymous4 said:
State meet should be Public in one division and Private in another IMHO.
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Letter to the editor in the columbus dispatch agreees with you. http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...rochial-teams-have-big-advantage.html?sid=101 What's next? How much more do we need to split up Ohio high school swimming to make it "fair"? No club swimmers? No USS national cut swimmers? No swimming out with your club? Is it fair that no boy swimmer (not diver) from Columbus Public Schools has not made it to state championships since DJ Kelly in the 90's? (did not look that one up but am pretty sure). They barely have made it to districts in an individual event. If you plan to swim in college, how you place or your relay places at state champs means nothing. whether you were on a state champ team means nothing to college. It is all based on your individual times.
 
theoldfish said:
No swimming out with your club? Is it fair that no boy swimmer (not diver) from Columbus Public Schools has not made it to state championships since DJ Kelly in the 90's? (did not look that one up but am pretty sure).
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DJ Kelley was a state champ in the 100 breast (57.49) from Columbus Beechcroft HS in 1997. He swam out with Greater Columbus and went on to swim at Ohio State and later was an assistant coach under Bill Wadley.

I really don't think the answer will be a split, I am just seeing a larger divide within high school swimming between public and private schools.
 
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If there is a split I think it will be driven by all sports not just swimming - only 1 of the 6 state football champions this year was a public school.
 
GoinDistance said:
If there is a split I think it will be driven by all sports not just swimming - only 1 of the 6 state football champions this year was a public school.
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You're right. If there is a split, which I doubt, it will be driven by football where the private - read catholic - schools dominate. However, running 2 tournaments will up the expenses for OHSAA without a reasonable expectation of increased revenue. OHSAA runs off the revenue from the football and basketball tournaments. Unlike many states, in Ohio schools pay no fee for membership in the OHSAA. If they decrease the net profit from football & basketball, then schools (public & private) can expect to pay a fee to participate. The more likely scenario, if any change is made, will be to move the privates up a division from where their student count places them. For swimming that would only mean that all the privates would be D1.
 
Have you seen the Northwest rankings? St. Francis is killing it up there. They also had the benefit of almost all of those guys rested and shaved for Junior Nationals in December and knocking those fast times off just after that meet. But they are really posting some fast times.
 
University continues to impress. Check out Schneider in the 100 Breast. Quite a good in season time (and he's the no. 2 breaststroker). Wonder if anyone can come within 100 points at the D2 state meet.

University School 1241/2, St. Ignatius 511/2
200MR: US (Stang, Schneider, Crane, Malone) 1:39.62. 200 free: Gaudiani (US) 1:45.51. 200IM: Crane (US) 1:56.13. 50 free: Malone (US) 21.33. Diving: Rosenberg (SI) 246.15. 100 fly: Crane (US) 52.52. 100 free: Ruddock (US) 49.23. 500 free: Gaudiani (US) 4:43.98. 200FR: US (Malone, Stack, Stewart-Bates, Gaudiani) 1:27.75. 100 back: Stang (US) 53.19. 100 breast: Schneider (US) 56.73. 400FR: US (Stewart-Bates, Stack, Gaudiani, Crane) 3:20.42.
 
preeder61 said:
I really don't think the answer will be a split, I am just seeing a larger divide within high school swimming between public and private schools.
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The problem in the central district is the growth along the outerbelt. With the exception of UA, almost every school district has added 1-2 high schools in the past 20 years. It has become pretty difficult to field a team deep enough to win the district let alone score enough points at the state meet. I would also bet that a higher percent of the private school swimmers train year around. Lets hope that OHSAA does nothing more to the division selections in swimming like they are proposing for the revenue sports.
 
preeder61 said:
Have you seen the Northwest rankings? St. Francis is killing it up there. They also had the benefit of almost all of those guys rested and shaved for Junior Nationals in December and knocking those fast times off just after that meet. But they are really posting some fast times.
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Saint Francis used their JNat results and submitted them in as hs times. Look up and compare, those times are rested, shaved, and fast suited.
 
swmexprt said:
Saint Francis used their JNat results and submitted them in as hs times. Look up and compare, those times are rested, shaved, and fast suited.
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Thanks, I was actually wondering if those times were done at a high school sanctioned meet, but it is good to know that those times were from Juniors. If they weren't then St. Xavier would probably have a hard time keeping up with them.
 
swmexprt said:
Saint Francis used their JNat results and submitted them in as hs times.
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Not sure that this is true. You might want to go check the JNat times. Miller for example flew back to do the 200/100 at Ned Reeb to post the times on swimmeet.com. I think some of the other times were from meets just after JNats, but the swimmeet times had to come from HS meets. The USA times would not count because they used the Omega blocks for the USA meet and they are not allowed for Federation times. Regardless, they have not posted faster times since December, so St. Francis will be an unknown come Districts/State.
 
Not sure how unknown StF will be. They gave X all they could handle last year and everyone is back...some a little faster. Based on last year's performance StF has to be considered the team to beat. They will likely win all the relays and score in all the individual events. Although you can never count X out, StF is my pick to win.
 
swimfan said:
Not sure how unknown StF will be. They gave X all they could handle last year and everyone is back...some a little faster. Based on last year's performance StF has to be considered the team to beat. They will likely win all the relays and score in all the individual events. Although you can never count X out, StF is my pick to win.
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I agree that I would favor St. Francis in D1, they have just been under the radar since posting early season times, so it is hard to say who will swim what and how their season has progressed. Must be hard mentally for the boys to swim shaved times in early December and then slow down all season with hopes to repeat or go faster in February. Sort of turns the season upside down.
 
If University and St. Francis are headed for D2 and D1 titles, who are the swimmers of the year?

D1: Meldon (Strongsville), Miller (St. F), Zimmerman (Morrow Little Miami), Williams (St. F.), Alters (North Canton Hoover), Gutierrez (Cincinnati Sycamore)

D2: Crane (University), Gaudiani (University), Malone (University),
 
In D1 I think Zimmerman as I expect him to swim very fast and not be challenged in the IM or back. By the way I think Williams may swim the 500 and avoid facing Zimmerman.

In D2 I would expect Malone... but it's really which of the 3 has the best meet.
 
swimfan said:
Not sure how unknown StF will be. They gave X all they could handle last year and everyone is back...some a little faster. Based on last year's performance StF has to be considered the team to beat. They will likely win all the relays and score in all the individual events. Although you can never count X out, StF is my pick to win.
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X has one ---- of a good medley relay with Haas, Wooley, Brower or Baumgartner, and an unknown freestyler. They could most definately win that relay. Also, X has depth and a much better team than last year (faster and more numerous) while TSF is amazing for about 8 guys and then drop off the charts. To prove my point further look at the D1 GCL results. None of those kids were fast enough to make Xs sectional team. Keep an eye on Brower (100Br) and Hendricks (200 and 500Fr) as well.
 
swmexprt said:
X has one ---- of a good medley relay with Haas, Wooley, Brower or Baumgartner, and an unknown freestyler. They could most definately win that relay. Also, X has depth and a much better team than last year (faster and more numerous) while TSF is amazing for about 8 guys and then drop off the charts. To prove my point further look at the D1 GCL results. None of those kids were fast enough to make Xs sectional team. Keep an eye on Brower (100Br) and Hendricks (200 and 500Fr) as well.
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But 8 guys is more than enough to win the state meet. While X is much deeper than StF, that won't help them in the state meet. There it's all about the top of the team and relays. While I give the edge to StF, this may depend upon who can hold the taper...and there traditionally the edge goes to X. It looks to be very competitive which ever team wins.
 
swmexprt said:
Hit ctrl F for SW District times and type in xavier and tally up the number of matches.
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You don't win the state meet by having 10 guys listed per event in the SW district. Go to the Ohio top 20 on swimmeet.com and then search for the individual entries for Xavier, then do the same for St Francis. Based on those current times, X has 3 guys in the top-10 and StF has 6. And eliminating D2 swimmers would project StF about 9 entries in an A final compared to about 3-4 for X. That means X is 5 entries behind. The average score in the A final compared to the B final is 14.75 to 4.625 (go ahead and do the math), meaning, on average, X would need about 3 entries in the B final for each one they are short in the A final to catch up. It is possible for X to get around a dozen spots in the B finals, but that still leaves them short. And StF has a few other possibilities for finals from Zimmerman, MacDonald, Carmony. What X really needs is a couple breakout swims from someone unexpected like Galvin, Wooley, or Rapp. Or on the flipside, if anyone from StF is DQ'd or sick, then they could easily come up short.
 
swmexprt said:
X has one ---- of a good medley relay with Haas, Wooley, Brower or Baumgartner, and an unknown freestyler. They could most definately win that relay. Also, X has depth and a much better team than last year (faster and more numerous) while TSF is amazing for about 8 guys and then drop off the charts. To prove my point further look at the D1 GCL results. None of those kids were fast enough to make Xs sectional team. Keep an eye on Brower (100Br) and Hendricks (200 and 500Fr) as well.
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Bomber medley relay needs to get a lead as Disalle went 20.3 on the free leg last year to grab the gold for StF.

Many big swims needed for the Bombers this year. They were supposed to finish 4th last year after the District results. They stepped up last year and grabbed it again.
 
ImPartial said:
You don't win the state meet by having 10 guys listed per event in the SW district. Go to the Ohio top 20 on swimmeet.com and then search for the individual entries for Xavier, then do the same for St Francis. Based on those current times, X has 3 guys in the top-10 and StF has 6. And eliminating D2 swimmers would project StF about 9 entries in an A final compared to about 3-4 for X. That means X is 5 entries behind. The average score in the A final compared to the B final is 14.75 to 4.625 (go ahead and do the math), meaning, on average, X would need about 3 entries in the B final for each one they are short in the A final to catch up. It is possible for X to get around a dozen spots in the B finals, but that still leaves them short. And StF has a few other possibilities for finals from Zimmerman, MacDonald, Carmony. What X really needs is a couple breakout swims from someone unexpected like Galvin, Wooley, or Rapp. Or on the flipside, if anyone from StF is DQ'd or sick, then they could easily come up short.
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My statement was directed twoard someone elses, which said that X has no chance because the SW district is too deep, not intending for the interpertation of how they can get everyone to the state meet.
 
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