Too Many Teams in the Playoffs?

raising4daughters

Active member
I like how New Jersey does their High School football. The division you are in is determined by how well your team does the previous year. Not by how many boys are in the school. If you are in the bottom of your division region one year then the next you would move to the lower division. For example, if you are in D1R4 and you finished in the bottom have of the computer points then you would move to D2R8. If you are in the top have of D2R8 then you would move to D1R4.
This makes sense for open enrollment schools whether public or private as they have a system for generating players. Closed enrollment schools depend much more on luck.....get a class of bigger, faster kids and you can be good. Our community's team has had some 7-9 win seasons in recent years but also some 2-4 win seasons. Not sure the NJ system makes a lot of sense for everyone, but I do see how it would put the strongest programs in the same division over time.
 

joesports

Well-known member
I like how New Jersey does their High School football. The division you are in is determined by how well your team does the previous year. Not by how many boys are in the school. If you are in the bottom of your division region one year then the next you would move to the lower division. For example, if you are in D1R4 and you finished in the bottom have of the computer points then you would move to D2R8. If you are in the top have of D2R8 then you would move to D1R4.
This was in the original competitive balance proposal … but people complained about “punishing” successful programs

here is that part of the proposal in 2012 or 2013
• Six (6) percent of enrollment will be added on a sport-by-sport basis for appearances in the Sweet 16 (regional tournament for all team sports except football, which would be the regional semifinals), in four of the last eight seasons,
or
• Ten (10) percent of enrollment will be added on a sport-by-sport basis for appearances in the state tournament in four of the last eight seasons.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
This makes sense for open enrollment schools whether public or private as they have a system for generating players. Closed enrollment schools depend much more on luck.....get a class of bigger, faster kids and you can be good. Our community's team has had some 7-9 win seasons in recent years but also some 2-4 win seasons. Not sure the NJ system makes a lot of sense for everyone, but I do see how it would put the strongest programs in the same division over time.

I prefer that method in lock-step to adjust schedules. Dynamic conferences that ups the schedule difficulty. Going up a class and still playing lower division in-season doesn't seem like it's quite consistent. IDK, would probably have to banter it a bit to foresee how it would work.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
This makes sense for open enrollment schools whether public or private as they have a system for generating players. Closed enrollment schools depend much more on luck.....get a class of bigger, faster kids and you can be good. Our community's team has had some 7-9 win seasons in recent years but also some 2-4 win seasons. Not sure the NJ system makes a lot of sense for everyone, but I do see how it would put the strongest programs in the same division over time.
nobody wins anything for winning any game including the "championship" game and no high school generates any revenue.

its all expense : if they charged enough for admission to cover all expenses including medical costs for injuries nobody would be able to afford the tickets.

its all for fun and the so called educational value of participating in a team activity, which would all be better served with intramurals and not having any interscholastic competitions at all.

but that wouldn't be as much like the pretend make believe NFL or NBA or MLB or MLS. or Wimbleton or the Masters golf tournament or professional bowling league or professional cross country competitions

LOL
 

serpico

Well-known member
nobody wins anything for winning any game including the "championship" game and no high school generates any revenue.

its all expense : if they charged enough for admission to cover all expenses including medical costs for injuries nobody would be able to afford the tickets.

its all for fun and the so called educational value of participating in a team activity, which would all be better served with intramurals and not having any interscholastic competitions at all.

but that wouldn't be as much like the pretend make believe NFL or NBA or MLB or MLS. or Wimbleton or the Masters golf tournament or professional bowling league or professional cross country competitions

LOL
And yet, thousands of families still allow their kids to play each year, medical costs be damned. Sounds like the market is making the decision here.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
And yet, thousands of families still allow their kids to play each year, medical costs be damned. Sounds like the market is making the decision here.
not the point. the point is that it doesn't matter if a team wins or loses. is the point.

there is no gain to anyone for winning or loss to anyone for losing.

so what if a team goes 2-7? they learned something. they lost nothing.

right? the real value to the market. is the entertainment value, in seeing someone win, and someone lose,

that's what gets marketed.
 

Journey

Well-known member
Who is hurt by 16 teams per region in the playoffs? Still have not got that answer.
Every football program that’s measured itself by the goal of making the playoffs over the last 20 or so years since it’s been a realistic yearly target to shoot at. Every week 1-10 matchup matters WAYYY less now. Pushed the whole season up a week now it starts even before school is in in some districts. Rewards mediocrity. Lotta riff raff farting on the field week 11, diluting the accomplishment of making it while watering down the tournament field and extending it.
 
Every football program that’s measured itself by the goal of making the playoffs over the last 20 or so years since it’s been a realistic yearly target to shoot at. Every week 1-10 matchup matters WAYYY less now. Pushed the whole season up a week now it starts even before school is in in some districts. Rewards mediocrity. Lotta riff raff farting on the field week 11, diluting the accomplishment of making it while watering down the tournament field and extending it.
But, again, who is hurt by that?
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
But, again, who is hurt by that?
the kids being used as performing chimpanzees with no realistic chance of winning the tournament, and every kid on all 224 teams being put at additional risk of serious injury or death, for no good reason.

what does a kid learn by being included as a 16 seed and forced to go on the field against a #1 seed in the first round?

the entire activity is justified ONLY as an adjunct to the EDUCATION of the child.

what does he learn? in reality the entire tournament should be banned.

it means nothing and does nothing to educate anyone, is just an exhibition exploited by media companies for easy profits generated by unpaid child labor the kids duped into performing in pursuit of a bogus "title"

the expansion to 224 teams proves this to be true. extra games meaning nothing, for corporate profits generated by exploited unpaid child labor.
 

emzie

Active member
Yes, it is ridiculous to have that many teams in the playoffs. 16 games to win a state championship increases the chances of injuries along with the fact that teams with losing records have no business in the playoffs. This was done to make more $$$ without regard to the athletes. 14 games were just fine.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
Yes, it is ridiculous to have that many teams in the playoffs. 16 games to win a state championship increases the chances of injuries along with the fact that teams with losing records have no business in the playoffs. This was done to make more $$$ without regard to the athletes. 14 games were just fine.

the only quarrel I have with your reasoning is that there is no significant $$$ generated by first round games except to local media through advertising sales. and that there were already 15 games for the finalists which is also too many for high school kids.

(but it was only two teams that had the 15 games.)

injuries aren't tracked. nobody knows how many injuries occurred because of any game or practice session, Those are ignored as acceptable collateral damage and the prevailing attitude is that injuries don't matter, the only thing that matters is that cheap entertainment is provided.

1669554104908.png
 

raising4daughters

Active member
Yes, it is ridiculous to have that many teams in the playoffs. 16 games to win a state championship increases the chances of injuries along with the fact that teams with losing records have no business in the playoffs. This was done to make more $$$ without regard to the athletes. 14 games were just fine.
In theory I agree 100%. Playoffs should mean something. Two challenges: (1) conferences provide typically 6-7 of 10 games, and conferences have different strengths and (2) schools hand-choose their 3-4 out-of-conference games.

I'm all for dropping to 8 playoff teams, maybe even 4, if we require teams to play their OOC games against teams in the region. I'd really like to see those games randomly scheduled/assigned. No ducking of privates. No more scheduling of weak, higher division Harbin "cows."
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
In theory I agree 100%. Playoffs should mean something. Two challenges: (1) conferences provide typically 6-7 of 10 games, and conferences have different strengths and (2) schools hand-choose their 3-4 out-of-conference games.

I'm all for dropping to 8 playoff teams, maybe even 4, if we require teams to play their OOC games against teams in the region. I'd really like to see those games randomly scheduled/assigned. No ducking of privates. No more scheduling of weak, higher division Harbin "cows."
now thats an idea : having "the league" (the OHSAA) make the schedule

and eliminate divisions: so Marion Local can get a shot at St Eds.

i like it.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
sapientia et veritas said:
Everyone in is as inevitable as competitive balance. We've become a nation of sissies.


this is in response to above:

An extreme underdog taking on a traditional power is a team of sissies? We're all glad you weren't running WWII for our side.

nonsensical non sequitur and straw man. he never said anything of the sort.

not even close.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
And yet, thousands of families still allow their kids to play each year, medical costs be damned. Sounds like the market is making the decision here.

for 95% of those families there will never be any real return, in scholarship because probably 50% have no real aspirations to attend a 4 year university - which is the carrot held out in front of all the players to sell them on playing football is the dream scenario goal of a full ride 4 year college scholarship, but only ONE of every 92 high school football players nationwide https://www.awevideo.com/recruiting-tips-tools/odds-of-receiving-a-football-scholarship , it's only people who assert that winning a high school game is meaningful, who put emphasis on it, claiming that it makes them relevant somehow, as opposed to losing. when the whole thing is designed to actually mean nothing, and really be just for fun, (an OHSAA trophy is worth essentially nothing, a person wouldn't pay more than about $50 for one on ebay they're probably =made in china= plastic junk)

but when the winning every game means everything, it's our entire identity, and we're devastated when we lose, LOSE , after all the braggadocio about how relevant winning is, that they back off and say: well, losing doesn't make us irrelevant, because we'll be back next year just you wait and see and the whole thing is unimportant now that we lost.

and all the scrubs who had to be on the team to have someone to practice against, get absolutely no benefit at all. maybe a little nicer GF or something. a jersey.

I often wondered about how and what the scrubs who after the last game was over and they were told to get lost, think.

which would be approx 80% of the total who played, really. one in 92 is the number that get full rides. the rest rely on their FASA.
^^^^
useless dumb- saying dumb-fckery
It's exactly what he posted in context. I quoted it. Just like I quoted your dumb-fckery.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
he said ALL teams in tournament was inevitable, which had nothing to do with underdog vs king kong

sapientia et veritas said:
Everyone in is as inevitable as competitive balance. We've become a nation of sissies.
which is disparaging the "mom rule" that "everyone gets a trophy" trope.


you replied

eastisbest said:
An extreme underdog taking on a traditional power is a team of sissies? We're all glad you weren't running WWII for our side.

the comment of an extreme underdog taking on a "traditional power" whatever that means, not being a team of sissies solely on the basis that by chance they were playing against a "traditional power", and then linking it to WWII as if the United States was an extreme underdog so you were glad he wasn't running WWII for our side, is inane in the first place, the US was not an extreme underdog in WWII. You being "glad that he wasn't running WWII on our side" is inane also. pretty much just a stupid thing to say. Well, I'm glad that you're glad that he wasn't running things for our side in WWII i guess.

that's why its a non sequitur from the start, makes no sense. for it to make sense you would have to show that the US was an extreme underdog, which you cannot.

then relating it to an 0-9 team that wants to be in the post season tournament, due to the everybody in, scenario, being up against a "traditional power" ...... is something the original poster never addressed in any way, which makes it a straw man, putting words into the other guys mouth.

therefore a straw man non sequitur.
 

Brooksie

Well-known member
If this point has always been brought up - apologize for the duplicate idea/proposal.

There has been talk of lesser teams in week 11 putting their kids in peril because the games will be so overwhelmingly in favor of the higher seed that players on the lower seeded teams will certainly get hurt.

The facts just don't support that. I have yet to hear of a player being permanently disabled or passing away in a W11 non competitive game. I am sure there have been significant injuries in week 11 - but, it is football - a violent, contact sport. That being said, as severe as those injuries may be - medical science and the rehabilitative fields are so advanced that these should not be life limiting injuries.

Taking those thoughts into consideration, the sobering fact of D1 is that R1 has just 17 teams, R2 and 3 have 18 teams each, and R4 has 19. Once the brain surgeons on Roseola Place deemed that 16 teams make the playoff from each region, the wheels were in motion to have very lopsided games in W11, as well as some O for the season teams qualify.

We all have our opinions on the matter, but only the OHSAA decision makers can truly answer this - if the move to 16 teams was motivated singularly by econmics, then God bless them - they got what they wanted. If they wanted to give kids a chance at a ring that would otherwise have no shot at one - that is a noble idea but out of touch with reality. Urban said it best "If you want the corner office, you go out and work for it to get it. It's not going to be given to you."

My proposal is driven by the desire to reward a solid season's body of work and a big emphasis on more competitive games.

My proposal would be go to a 12 team per division format. You stll have a 6 game road to the state title (same as currently), but you can reward the top 4 region finishers for an excellent season with a W11 bye. You separate the chaff from the wheat by eliminating seeds 13-16. Under this proposal, the chances are significantly better for the 5 vs 12 game being much more competitive than a 1 vs 16 game. I hate games that are 35-0 just two minutes into the second quarter.

But - we have all seen how arrogant the OHSAA can be - so i will be shocked if the 16 team format changes. Anytime the administrators have made a change in the past, it has always been to add more teams, never paring the field.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
If this point has always been brought up - apologize for the duplicate idea/proposal.

There has been talk of lesser teams in week 11 putting their kids in peril because the games will be so overwhelmingly in favor of the higher seed that players on the lower seeded teams will certainly get hurt.

The facts just don't support that. I have yet to hear of a player being permanently disabled or passing away in a W11 non competitive game. I am sure there have been significant injuries in week 11 - but, it is football - a violent, contact sport. That being said, as severe as those injuries may be - medical science and the rehabilitative fields are so advanced that these should not be life limiting injuries.

Taking those thoughts into consideration, the sobering fact of D1 is that R1 has just 17 teams, R2 and 3 have 18 teams each, and R4 has 19. Once the brain surgeons on Roseola Place deemed that 16 teams make the playoff from each region, the wheels were in motion to have very lopsided games in W11, as well as some O for the season teams qualify.

We all have our opinions on the matter, but only the OHSAA decision makers can truly answer this - if the move to 16 teams was motivated singularly by econmics, then God bless them - they got what they wanted. If they wanted to give kids a chance at a ring that would otherwise have no shot at one - that is a noble idea but out of touch with reality. Urban said it best "If you want the corner office, you go out and work for it to get it. It's not going to be given to you."

My proposal is driven by the desire to reward a solid season's body of work and a big emphasis on more competitive games.

My proposal would be go to a 12 team per division format. You stll have a 6 game road to the state title (same as currently), but you can reward the top 4 region finishers for an excellent season with a W11 bye. You separate the chaff from the wheat by eliminating seeds 13-16. Under this proposal, the chances are significantly better for the 5 vs 12 game being much more competitive than a 1 vs 16 game. I hate games that are 35-0 just two minutes into the second quarter.

But - we have all seen how arrogant the OHSAA can be - so i will be shocked if the 16 team format changes. Anytime the administrators have made a change in the past, it has always been to add more teams, never paring the field.

My proposal would be go to a 12 team per division format. You stll have a 6 game road to the state title (same as currently), but you can reward the top 4 region finishers for an excellent season with a W11 bye. You separate the chaff from the wheat by eliminating seeds 13-16. Under this proposal, the chances are significantly better for the 5 vs 12 game being much more competitive than a 1 vs 16 game. I hate games that are 35-0 just two minutes into the second quarter.

so you give the lower seeded teams a longer road to the finals and let the top seeds have a week of rest.

how does this make any sense? if any teams should get a bye it should be the bottom of the table.

gives them a little better chance to survive round 1.
 

Brooksie

Well-known member
My proposal would be go to a 12 team per division format. You stll have a 6 game road to the state title (same as currently), but you can reward the top 4 region finishers for an excellent season with a W11 bye. You separate the chaff from the wheat by eliminating seeds 13-16. Under this proposal, the chances are significantly better for the 5 vs 12 game being much more competitive than a 1 vs 16 game. I hate games that are 35-0 just two minutes into the second quarter.

so you give the lower seeded teams a longer road to the finals and let the top seeds have a week of rest.

how does this make any sense? if any teams should get a bye it should be the bottom of the table.

gives them a little better chance to survive round 1.
What? You want to have seeds 1-4 play W11 while you give 9-12 a bye?
What universe does that make sense in? I am being serious, I really fail to see your logic.
 

Head Linesman

Well-known member
What? You want to have seeds 1-4 play W11 while you give 9-12 a bye?
What universe does that make sense in? I am being serious, I really fail to see your logic.

wtf they are the little beat up underdog why do you want to give the top seed strongest team a week of rest and make the little beat up underdog try to survive.

give the little beat up underdog the week to patch his wounds and get a breather, not the big bully

make #1 play #5 and #2 play #3 they would probably meet up later anyway so lets get rid of two of them in the first round.

thats the ticket. hype week one as kingmaker, at the outset semi finals in the first week, and then make the winner play five more games and win them all, to get the prize which isn;t even a real prize LOL

Generate all the PPV right at the outset of the tournament. while the iron's still hot from regular season suspense.

the way these idiots did it, week one generates no ppv at all everybody knows the top teams are gonna mercy clock the poor bastards that came in 16th
 

Brooksie

Well-known member
wtf they are the little beat up underdog why do you want to give the top seed strongest team a week of rest and make the little beat up underdog try to survive.

give the little beat up underdog the week to patch his wounds and get a breather, not the big bully

make #1 play #5 and #2 play #3 they would probably meet up later anyway so lets get rid of two of them in the first round.

thats the ticket. hype week one as kingmaker, at the outset semi finals in the first week, and then make the winner play five more games and win them all, to get the prize which isn;t even a real prize LOL

Generate all the PPV right at the outset of the tournament. while the iron's still hot from regular season suspense.

the way these idiots did it, week one generates no ppv at all everybody knows the top teams are gonna mercy clock the poor bastards that came in 16th
No offense - but you are way out of touch.

In EVERY bracket I have ever seen in ANY sport, the team that had the most on the court or on the field success gets the bye if there is one to be had.

Your proposal would be akin to the Browns sneaking into the AFC playoffs this season, and getting a first round bye - while Kansas City (current top seed) plays week 18.

That is beyond lunacy.
 

neofootball10

Active member
As far as to who is hurt by 16 teams making the playoffs. how about all the teams who now have to plays a 16 game season . Heck, the its a nfl length schedule now if you include scrimmages. If you want to keep 16. get rid of week 10 game.
 
.
Top