SWOH D1 Thread

What a disappointing showing by Sycamore. As I posted on the GMC thread a few weeks ago there's too much fiddlin' and diddlin; with the ball 25 feet away from the basket with no apparent aim to score. Had Sycamore played with a sense of urgency before the last two minutes the outcome might have been different. Burgess looked to be soft. At this point I see him no more impactful in the Big 10 than Maverick Morgan (Springboro and then Illinois) was in the last decade. A JAG (just another guy) averaging about 5 points a game.
 
Philly_Cat said:
If by GCL ball you mean it's hack attack, I'm going to disagree. If by GCL ball you mean, a lot of motion on offense and patience to get a good shot. That's how most high school teams play across the country. The exception is the ones with a ton of talent where they almost always have 5 kids on the floor that can create their own shot. There were only 2 teams in Cincinnati D1 that I would say could do that, Moeller and Lakota West. West was just too young right now. The rest of the city should be scared of them for the next few years though. Moeller, in my opinion, is bored. You constantly harp on them not playing how you think they should, but I'd argue I'd rather have a team that can play a disciplined half court game and run if they need or want to, than a team that can run but can't play disciplined ball.
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I'm talking about the methodical style on offense. And I agree, in Cincinnati, very few kids can create shots. That's why the scoring is so low. So few kids have offensive skills.

For example, I know Austing is cut from the GCL cloth, but balancing his GCL style with more freedom for his guards and stellar big man would have produced way better results. Alot of coaches simply are scared to death to loosen the reigns with these kids.

Brook Cupps does it best. Runs great stuff, but always allows kids to improvise and make basketball plays.
 
Doublehelix said:
I'm talking about the methodical style on offense. And I agree, in Cincinnati, very few kids can create shots. That's why the scoring is so low. So few kids have offensive skills.

For example, I know Austing is cut from the GCL cloth, but balancing his GCL style with more freedom for his guards and stellar big man would have produced way better results. Alot of coaches simply are scared to death to loosen the reigns with these kids.

Brook Cupps does it best. Runs great stuff, but always allows kids to improvise and make basketball plays.
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You want teams to do stuff they don't have the talent to do it with. Centerville has talent, Sycamore does not. You want to "let loose" kids that will do nothing with that freedom but jack up bad shots they can't make, or turn the ball over. Your job as the coach is to try to put every player on your team in the best position to succeed individually, which in turn helps the team as a whole. What you want sets kids up to fail, by allowing kids to do things they can't do, or at best, can't do consistently.
 
Philly_Cat said:
You want teams to do stuff they don't have the talent to do it with. Centerville has talent, Sycamore does not. You want to "let loose" kids that will do nothing with that freedom but jack up bad shots they can't make, or turn the ball over.
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Sycamore has had some VERY good talent the past 3-4 years. Have they gotten past districts? Has their style of play changed?

With these coaches, even when they have great talent, they still employ the same controlling schemes from the sidelines. The game is won and lost within the lines, not micro-managing every second of the game from the coach's box. Austing 100% does this (because that's what they always did at Elder) - and I think it costs him games.
 
SWOH D1 FINAL FOUR

Wednesday, March 13, 2024
6:00 PM - #1 Centerville vs. #13 Hamilton
8:00 PM - #1 Moeller vs. #2 Elder
 
Doublehelix said:
I'm talking about the methodical style on offense. And I agree, in Cincinnati, very few kids can create shots. That's why the scoring is so low. So few kids have offensive skills.

For example, I know Austing is cut from the GCL cloth, but balancing his GCL style with more freedom for his guards and stellar big man would have produced way better results. Alot of coaches simply are scared to death to loosen the reigns with these kids.

Brook Cupps does it best. Runs great stuff, but always allows kids to improvise and make basketball plays.
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I'll tell you this though, If you're truly as passionate about all this, as you try to come across as, why not coach? And I'm saying that authentically.
 
Doublehelix said:
Sycamore has had some VERY good talent the past 3-4 years. Have they gotten past districts? Has their style of play changed?

With these coaches, even when they have great talent, they still employ the same controlling schemes from the sidelines. The game is won and lost within the lines, not micro-managing every second of the game from the coach's box. Austing 100% does this (because that's what they always did at Elder) - and I think it costs him games.
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I don't think coaches are micro-managing games, at least not how you think they are.
 
Philly_Cat said:
I'll tell you this though, If you're truly as passionate about all this, as you try to come across as, why not coach? And I'm saying that authentically.
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Been there, done that. It's honestly part of the reason why I got out.

In saying that, I kind of burned out before I could even get a head coaching job, alot of times when I made my opinions known on these type of topics. Coaches don't like to hear those kinds of differing opinions about their strategies and philosophies.

I saw so much untapped potential of kids being robots instead of basketball players. It's getting worse in Cincinnati HS basketball. I know the level of basketball is better than we are seeing in these games.
 
Doublehelix said:
Sycamore has had some VERY good talent the past 3-4 years. Have they gotten past districts? Has their style of play changed?
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Nope. District final loss to Fairmont. Sectional final loss to Elder. District final loss to Hamilton. Ran the same offense, just with very different personnel. The offense allows freelance for baseline driving lanes and creates plenty of open 3s, but Sycamore just had zero ability to create their own shot. They made up for it by being very patient snd playing very good defense.
 
Doublehelix said:
Sycamore has had some VERY good talent the past 3-4 years. Have they gotten past districts? Has their style of play changed?

With these coaches, even when they have great talent, they still employ the same controlling schemes from the sidelines. The game is won and lost within the lines, not micro-managing every second of the game from the coach's box. Austing 100% does this (because that's what they always did at Elder) - and I think it costs him games.
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Burgess has been managing injuries in some way or shape his entire high school career, which has led to Sycamore teams over the last few years that are in a constant state of flux. JBaller can correct if I'm wrong, but I don't see Sycamore having mokre than 1 star on their team as a team. I can only think of 1 or 2 times over the last decade where I've seen a Sycamore team that made me say "oh, they've got something this year."
 
JBaller said:
Nope. District final loss to Fairmont. Sectional final loss to Elder. District final loss to Hamilton. Ran the same offense, just with very different personnel. The offense allows freelance for baseline driving lanes and creates plenty of open 3s, but Sycamore just had zero ability to create their own shot. They made up for it by being very patient snd playing very good defense.
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And as I've said, you wouldn't believe how many coaches out there will yank kids for doing anything remotely close to creating something on their own. They aren't allowed, and you can tell they play tight and stressed.

All I'm saying is the coaches should trust their players more. Not full fledged street ball, but help them develop better offensive skills (they don't teach it, they just teach their offense) and give them some leeway.

Outside of practicing shooting 3s and free throws, there are virtually ZERO programs that teach offensive shot creation. That's a problem.
 
JBaller said:
Nope. District final loss to Fairmont. Sectional final loss to Elder. District final loss to Hamilton. Ran the same offense, just with very different personnel. The offense allows freelance for baseline driving lanes and creates plenty of open 3s, but Sycamore just had zero ability to create their own shot. They made up for it by being very patient snd playing very good defense.
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They had plenty of talent to win districts and more the past 3-4 years. Their style was certainly part of the reason why it didn't happen.

They've had at least 3 guys that have or will play in college. If you have 2-3 college level players, your ceiling is higher than sectional exits most years. Because they likely know the coach, they won't dare say they've under-achieved, but they have.
 
Doublehelix said:
Been there, done that. It's honestly part of the reason why I got out.

In saying that, I kind of burned out before I could even get a head coaching job, alot of times when I made my opinions known on these type of topics. Coaches don't like to hear those kinds of differing opinions about their strategies and philosophies.

I saw so much untapped potential of kids being robots instead of basketball players. It's getting worse in Cincinnati HS basketball. I know the level of basketball is better than we are seeing in these games.
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Create your own path then, instead of giving up. If you truly believe you have something that is better, works, is the right way, build it! Complaining on Yappi solves nothing.
 
Vet Observer said:
What a disappointing showing by Sycamore. As I posted on the GMC thread a few weeks ago there's too much fiddlin' and diddlin; with the ball 25 feet away from the basket with no apparent aim to score. Had Sycamore played with a sense of urgency before the last two minutes the outcome might have been different. Burgess looked to be soft. At this point I see him no more impactful in the Big 10 than Maverick Morgan (Springboro and then Illinois) was in the last decade. A JAG (just another guy) averaging about 5 points a game.
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He needs to get stronger and better offensively, but he moves well and will be able to defend. Plus, he’ll get great coaching at Purdue. Zero chance he plays as a freshman though.
 
Philly_Cat said:
Create your own path then, instead of giving up. If you truly believe you have something that is better, works, is the right way, build it! Complaining on Yappi solves nothing.
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Well you also need talent too. I don't have the energy anymore to commit to what's necessary in today's game to get players.

The urban public schools don't have the resources and the privates say it's cheating.

Schools like Mason and Sycamore and the Lakotas are sleeping giants. They have talent and resources. It pains me to no end that they can't figure it out.

I'd honestly rather disrupt the AD attitudes and status quo in the city. I think more impact could be had there. They're all bureaucrats with zero vision.
 
Doublehelix said:
And as I've said, you wouldn't believe how many coaches out there will yank kids for doing anything remotely close to creating something on their own. They aren't allowed, and you can tell they play tight and stressed.

All I'm saying is the coaches should trust their players more. Not full fledged street ball, but help them develop better offensive skills (they don't teach it, they just teach their offense) and give them some leeway.

Outside of practicing shooting 3s and free throws, there are virtually ZERO programs that teach offensive shot creation. That's a problem.
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Look, I'm a baseball guy, that loves basketball. On this point right here I have to say that there is a level of personal responsibility as well. YOU have to work on those things at home. There are trainers out there that specialize in teaching kids exactly that. As a head coach, particually at a high school level, you only have so much time to work with players one on one. They HAVE to take charge of their own development if they are going to truly be successful. If you bring to a team that you are a player that can create his own shot and can command the ball, guess what, you will. Stop putting this all on coaches.
 
Doublehelix said:
Well you also need talent too. I don't have the energy anymore to commit to what's necessary in today's game to get players.

The urban public schools don't have the resources and the privates say it's cheating.

Schools like Mason and Sycamore and the Lakotas are sleeping giants. They have talent and resources. It pains me to no end that they can't figure it out.

I'd honestly rather disrupt the AD attitudes and status quo in the city. I think more impact could be had there. They're all bureaucrats with zero vision.
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excuses
 
Philly_Cat said:
Look, I'm a baseball guy, that loves basketball. On this point right here I have to say that there is a level of personal responsibility as well. YOU have to work on those things at home. There are trainers out there that specialize in teaching kids exactly that. As a head coach, particually at a high school level, you only have so much time to work with players one on one. They HAVE to take charge of their own development if they are going to truly be successful. If you bring to a team that you are a player that can create his own shot and can command the ball, guess what, you will. Stop putting this all on coaches.
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Agree. But I'm also telling you that coaches 100% stifle this for dictating the kids run their stuff and their stuff only. It works both ways.

There's a reason why these kids love AAU. They are allowed to work on and showcase the things they are forbidden to do on their high schools teams.
 
Doublehelix said:
Agree. But I'm also telling you that coaches 100% stifle this for dictating the kids run their stuff and their stuff only. It works both ways.

There's a reason why these kids love AAU. They are allowed to work on and showcase the things they are forbidden to do on their high schools teams.
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Also two completely different environments. The main focus of AAU is for individuals to showcase their talents. The main focus of high school is for their varsity to win as many games as possible. You can't expect the same from two completely different situations.
 
Philly_Cat said:
Also two completely different environments. The main focus of AAU is for individuals to showcase their talents. The main focus of high school is for their varsity to win as many games as possible. You can't expect the same from two completely different situations.
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Outside of Moeller, what program is winning all of these titles or making deep runs employing this methodical method of play?

Ignatius and Centerville are lights years better at offensive execution and play-making and it's the main reason for their consistent basketball success and deep runs. No other Cincy program is making their mark playing this way. They're just winning in Cincinnati. I would put Cov Cath in this mix as well. They have a great balance of good offensive schemes with kids allowed to be play-makers. In all honesty, I'd put Copper in this mix as well. Their coach doesn't always get the best talent, but he has an open style of play that's hard to guard and prepare for.
 
Doublehelix said:
Outside of Moeller, what program is winning all of these titles employing this methodical method of play?

Ignatius and Centerville are lights years better at offensive execution and play-making and it's the main reason for their consistent basketball success and deep runs. No other Cincy program is making their mark playing this way. They're just winning in Cincinnati.
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Tell me what schools, outside of those 2, that get a consistent stream of talent. When the talent you get from year to year is never dependable you have to ensure you have something in place that can maximize the talent you do have every year. Having to not worry about the talent you have waiting next year makes EVERYTHING a hell of a lot easier.
 
Philly_Cat said:
Tell me what schools, outside of those 2, that get a consistent stream of talent. When the talent you get from year to year is never dependable you have to ensure you have something in place that can maximize the talent you do have every year. Having to not worry about the talent you have waiting next year makes EVERYTHING a hell of a lot easier.
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The talent is there. Coaches are stifling it with over control.

I'm not saying Cincinnati is a hot bed of college level players, but I promise you, these kids are capable of more than they are allowed to show on Friday nights.
 
Doublehelix said:
The talent is there. Coaches are stifling it with over control.

I'm not saying Cincinnati is a hot bed of college level players, but I promise you, these kids are capable of more than they are allowed to show on Friday nights.
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Look man, I follow the Lakota's. Lakota East did NOT have talent. Not just none on their bench, but even in their starting 5. But Adkins is a great coach and has built a program that doesn't rely on having a bunch of talent to succeed. And East wasn't the exception this year, which was particularly lacking. Just look at the district championship games from today. We had 8 teams and not a lot of talent out there. You think it was the coaching schemes that created the lack of talent we just saw today?
 
Philly_Cat said:
If by GCL ball you mean it's hack attack, I'm going to disagree. If by GCL ball you mean, a lot of motion on offense and patience to get a good shot. That's how most high school teams play across the country. The exception is the ones with a ton of talent where they almost always have 5 kids on the floor that can create their own shot. There were only 2 teams in Cincinnati D1 that I would say could do that, Moeller and Lakota West. West was just too young right now. The rest of the city should be scared of them for the next few years though. Moeller, in my opinion, is bored. You constantly harp on them not playing how you think they should, but I'd argue I'd rather have a team that can play a disciplined half court game and run if they need or want to, than a team that can run but can't play disciplined ball.
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Good points. City should be just as scared of Princeton.
 
Doublehelix said:
Outside of Moeller, what program is winning all of these titles or making deep runs employing this methodical method of play?
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Public schools are subject to the ebbs and flows of talent, and don’t put Centerville in that category given all the transfers. I will say that Lakota East is the one program that’s done well when they’ve had talent. They have 4 district titles under Adkins playing the Fleming full court man and motion offense style (similar to Centerville too). They had a real shot at a title the COVID year, before their regional final game against Moeller got canceled.
 
Doublehelix said:
Well you also need talent too. I don't have the energy anymore to commit to what's necessary in today's game to get players.

The urban public schools don't have the resources and the privates say it's cheating.

Schools like Mason and Sycamore and the Lakotas are sleeping giants. They have talent and resources. It pains me to no end that they can't figure it out.

I'd honestly rather disrupt the AD attitudes and status quo in the city. I think more impact could be had there. They're all bureaucrats with zero vision.
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Doublehelix said:
Outside of Moeller, what program is winning all of these titles or making deep runs employing this methodical method of play?
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I will also note that the GMC only has 2 state championships ever since the league’s creation in 1968 (the GWOC also only has 2). It’s very hard to win a title in a division with over 200 teams, and that’s why I hate the way they are watering down the divisions. It takes a truly special team to win it regional or state, and I don’t want that being cheapened.
 
The Sycamore district is landlocked, no room for expansion. Moreover, it has a closed enrollment policy so the talent pool is limited to who lives in the district and comes walking through the front door. I will agree with you on coaches micro-managing. Are they afraid being fired if they lose? I'm a CPS alum who grew up in an era before open enrollment, coach shopping and all that crap. With the exceptions of Walnut Hills and Central Vocational, a student living in any particular geographical neighborhood had to attend that neighborhood's high school. (What a novel concept). More importantly the same varsity basketball coaches, win or lose, seemed to be at the same schools year after year. This may have been a product of the CPS school system being aware what kind of cards the coaches were dealt. Coaches may have left, voluntarily or involuntarily, for other reasons, but not for lack of winning records. I do not recall these coaches micro-managing to the nth degree for fear of losing their jobs. With this relative stability I also do not recall coaches job hopping at the drop of a hat because they think some other school system has a better immediate pipeline of talent.

I did get to see Monteverde Academy play in the City of Palms Classic in Fort Meyers, FL, a few years ago. Kevin Boyle, the Monteverde coach, stood on the sideline the entire game chanting like an auctioneer, micro-managing every pass. I don't think he was in fear of losing his job and probably could probably pick any five players on his team, roll the ball out there, and win the game.

Lastly, there are college basketball players and then there are college basketball players. What high school players from this area have gone on to be impact players at the Divsion1 Power Five level in even the last decade?
 
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