Rather than vowing to make sure Sandy Hook wouldn't happen again....

chs1971

Well-known member
I’ve been reading this debate off and on today. Does it really make sense to take books away from teachers and give them guns? Is that really the best strategy? Take a step back and listen to yourselves.
No one wants to do that.

Shocker that you don't understand.
 

SayMyName

Well-known member
Irony. I've owned and fired various types rifles of all calibers.
fools gold gladiator GIF by Fool's Gold Records
 

SayMyName

Well-known member

The senseless murder of 19 children and two teachers at the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas is leading to calls for more gun control. To some, “red flag” laws, also known as Extreme Risk Protection Orders, seem like the obvious solution. These laws allow judges to seize a person’s guns without a trial, based solely on a written complaint that the person might be a danger to themselves or others. All a judge needs is “reasonable suspicion.”

“We know that we can show we can be united to protect our children,” said Sen. Joe Manchin, a famously moderate West Virginia Democrat.

We also care about children, but much better laws are already in place. We are concerned that red flag laws will cause more harm than good.

Democratic politicians’ support for red flag is almost universal, but the Washington Times reports that some Republican senators are now warming up to such legislation. “For people who threatened harm to themselves or somebody else, you could only go through law enforcement, and you had to go through the courts, and it wasn’t permanent,” explained Republican Sen. Rick Scott, who signed a red flag bill while governor of Florida.

It has always been possible to take a dangerous person’s guns away. All 50 states and the federal government have involuntary commitment laws that go by various names: the Baker Act in Florida, for example, or the 5150 code in California. They all require a mental health expert to testify before a judge, but hearings can occur quickly in urgent cases. If those facing a hearing can’t afford a lawyer, the judge provides them with one. Judges have a lot of flexibility when ruling. For instance, if the person on trial does not agree to voluntary psychiatric treatment, they may be committed involuntarily or have their guns confiscated.

But red flag laws remove all these due process protections. Based only on a written complaint, which could come from a relative, friend, neighbor, or police officer, a judge decides whether to take away a person’s guns. There is no ability to challenge claims or to offer testimony from a mental health care expert. Gun control advocates argue that the person should not even know that the judge may be deciding to take his or her guns. When a hearing finally takes place up to a month later, if the person in question cannot afford an attorney, they will not be provided with one.

When faced with the costs for a hearing, which may be up to $10,000, few people find that fighting red flag laws to keep their guns makes sense. Few defendants obtain legal representation, but the courts still overturn a third of the initial orders. The actual error rate is undoubtedly much higher, because many of those wrongly prosecuted don’t have a lawyer.

People who truly pose a clear danger to themselves or others should be confined to a mental health facility or be required to seek treatment. Laws used to confiscate guns are typically enforced when dealing with suicidal people. However, if someone is suicidal, there are many other ways they may choose to kill themselves. Simply taking away a gun isn’t the answer.

A person intent on violence may not even need a gun to inflict mass carnage. Are we going to also take away their cars? Gun control advocates find it much easier to conjure up new laws without protections than to fine-tune laws already on the books. They find that times of national grieving present an opportunity to push new measures through Congress.


We worry that red flag laws could actually increase instances of suicide. One of us, Nikki Goeser, watched as a stalker murdered her husband in front of her. As anyone would understand, that loss left her devastated. Despite her grief, however, she was not suicidal. But a well-meaning friend or relative might have raised a complaint, worrying that she was depressed and had a gun. With a stalker having just murdered her husband, taking away her ability to protect herself from stalkers would have left her feeling even more vulnerable.

Under Baker Act statutes, she would have had a chance to explain her concerns to the mental health care experts. If that didn’t work, she would have still had a hearing with a lawyer and been given the opportunity to explain her situation to the judge.

Simply talking to other people about your depression can be important in overcoming it. But with red flag laws in place, people may have been reluctant to discuss their mental state with others. Police officers also often experience work-related depression. They may bottle up their feelings for fear of losing their guns, and thus their jobs.

We don’t want a world where police make unannounced predawn raids or people lose their fundamental right to self-defense without a judicial hearing. For some, it’s a matter of life and death.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
In the period of eleven days, two eighteen-year-olds, young men still at the beginning of their lives, destroyed their lives, and the lives of 31 others.

Why? How is our culture failing our children? Why are we producing such monsters?

What type of of weapon they used or where they bought it is irrelevant.

People fixated on the weapon used are ignoring the real problem, or don't want to address it.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
In the period of eleven days, two eighteen-year-olds, young men still at the beginning of their lives, destroyed their lives, and the lives of 31 others.

Why? How is our culture failing our children? Why are we producing such monsters?

What type of of weapon they used or where they bought it is irrelevant.

People fixated on the weapon used are ignoring the real problem, or don't want to address it.

It is not fair to say Pubs don't want to address it. They do. With more guns, less background checks, less mental healthcare, and fewer restrictions on hate sites that promote bigotry, violence, and harmful conspiracies.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
I’ve been reading this debate off and on today. Does it really make sense to take books away from teachers and give them guns? Is that really the best strategy? Take a step back and listen to yourselves.
Oversimplifying the argument a bit are we? Whose taking away books and handing out guns? You either deliberately misrepresent their position or are unable to comprehend what you read. Either is not a good look.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
That’s bull$&#@.I know plenty of conservatives who cheated on their wives and eventually divorced. Just like I know plenty of Democrats who have done the same. I do believe that more conservatives are guilty of using religion to steal. Think of all the right wing tele evangelists. You know the guys who hold bibles upside down over their head and claim to have God on their side. If their has truly been a decline in morality there is enough blame on both sides.
What does this have to do with anything? There will always be people who don't behave properly within any culture.

And it's more then a decline in morality, at least in the narrow way you define it. There's been a catastrophic decline in standards and acceptable behavior. We have replaced processes that favored virtuous cycles with those that reinforce non-virtuous cycles. This has led directly to the mess we're in today.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
It is not fair to say Pubs don't want to address it. They do. With more guns, less background checks, less mental healthcare, and fewer restrictions on hate sites that promote bigotry, violence, and harmful conspiracies.
In addition to being gibberish that throws together a whole bunch of unrelated themes this post is a lie.
 

Qcity

Well-known member


Disheartening to learn that the officers on scene waited for nearly an hour for a SWAT team to arrive while there was a shooter in the school.

This morning I heard that police thought the situation had turned from an 'active shooter' to a 'barricade and hostage' situation, and there are different tactics for each. The issue will be, who made that determination and why, and how accurate or how wrong was it.
 

Qcity

Well-known member
Why can’t everyone at least support Red Flag laws. Texas does not have one, and neither does Ohio. They should be expanded from family members and the police to include medical doctors and school counselors. Guns are now the number one cause of death for children (under18) in the United States. More than automobile accidents.

If true; it is solely because of big city gangbangers, where the strictest gun laws exist ( and DO NOT WORK).

The problem is deep; it is not simply curable by another gun law. Until the left and the political hacks on the left come to grips with that, nothing is going to change.
 

Qcity

Well-known member
Everyone thinks they are Rambo till rubber meets the road.

Call me crazy but armed response vs active shooter(s) with superior arms, on top of your other full time responsibilities, doesn’t sound like an effective side job. Not to mention cops show up and get to sort who’s who on the fly.


An off-duty border patrol agent took him out.


Get in the game
 

Qcity

Well-known member
I get it dead kids are a cost of freedom. We should honor the kids for their support reinforcing the 2nd Amendment. Heros!


Typical, typical, typical liberal soundbites ................keep 'em coming. THEY DO NOTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM CREATED BY LIBERALS.
 

Qcity

Well-known member
So you are for livable wages, job protections, unions, single income households, family leave, universal healthcare, daycare, and all the things that help families raise families. Cool.

Not at all - why? Hundreds of millions of families were successfully raised for two hundred years, before the left started all these BIG government programs that led to the destruction of THE FAMILY.



OWN IT for God's sakes.
 

MoeDude

LIVE FREE OR DIE!
It is not fair to say Pubs don't want to address it. They do. With more guns, less background checks, less mental healthcare, and fewer restrictions on hate sites that promote bigotry, violence, and harmful conspiracies.
You really are full of dung and have been brainwashed by some media source. I'd like to see your sources for all these claims n bold.

1. More guns, Many schools throughout the US have adopted an armed teacher policy and in most cases its voluntary but those who choose to partake of it go through training. I believe you are being naive if you don't think that would curtail some of these shootings. Right now too many of our schools advertise that they are gun free zones which makes them easy prey for these sick individuals who decide to do this.
2. I don't have an issue with having more back ground checks for certain guns. It's not just Pubs but Dems in government who haven't pushed this through harder. But it fits your hate and one sided viewpoint to only blame Pubs.
3. Less Mental Health care Really?!?!? Show the proof here. One thing I've been saying all along is that when these tragedies happen it's always the same Leftist mantra, guns guns guns. When has any Democrat come out and acknowledge the elephant in the house, that mental illness is being ignored in this nation and until we address it from both parties we will continue to see tragedies like this.
4. again where is your proof regarding the hate sites? I think The View should be canceled, you can't get more hateful than the Leftist garbage and hate they constantly spew.

You folks like to make fun of FOX and yet CNN, MSNBC and MSM are brainwashing you everyday with lies and half truths.
 

Qcity

Well-known member
In the period of eleven days, two eighteen-year-olds, young men still at the beginning of their lives, destroyed their lives, and the lives of 31 others.

Why? How is our culture failing our children? Why are we producing such monsters?

What type of of weapon they used or where they bought it is irrelevant.

People fixated on the weapon used are ignoring the real problem, or don't want to address it.


Liberals do not want to own up to the reality of what their policies have created, thus they do the easy thing and deflect to guns.

This is beyond sad; it is reprehensible. Unfortunately what they have done to society will take a couple decades to turn around, at least.
 

soccerdad72

Well-known member
Not at all - why? Hundreds of millions of families were successfully raised for two hundred years, before the left started all these BIG government programs that led to the destruction of THE FAMILY.

So, now it's government programs that have destroyed families? Which ones, specifically?
 

Yorktown

Well-known member
It is not fair to say Pubs don't want to address it. They do. With more guns, less background checks, less mental healthcare, and fewer restrictions on hate sites that promote bigotry, violence, and harmful conspiracies.
When did you became a nut bar?
 

oxat622

Well-known member
That a car isn't explicitly designed to kill makes getting run over by one any less deadly?

Dwyane Haskins said hold my beer.
Literally everything can be made deadly. That doesn't mean everything is designed to be deadly.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
Not at all - why? Hundreds of millions of families were successfully raised for two hundred years, before the left started all these BIG government programs that led to the destruction of THE FAMILY.



OWN IT for God's sakes.

Then pubs began destroying unions, pensions, healthcare benefits, collective bargaining, wage hikes, and went all-in on enriching the wealthy and said it would trickle down to the middle class. It was urine.
 
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