StillNeutral
Member
If you are selected the most you can do is 2 yrs consecutively , then must sit a year.
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Questioning calls and Coaching Misconduct
- Thread starter kbiz
- Start date
Heck, I'm a retired official and it makes me angry. What's the point in having an asst. referee if you don't respect his advice or he doesn't have the nards to tell you he saw something differently. When I was a head official or a mat captain at districts I made sure that the official I respected most was my assistant, not my buddy or my friend. Likewise, I did my best to pair the weakest guy with who I thought was the strongest.My only pet peeve is when two refs are on the mat and get the call wrong.
I would hope pretty high given that this is an outright rule error vs. anything involving a modicum of judgement. Then with it being the state tournament, I'm sure one of the SRI's would be coming over.What do you think the odds are going to the table gets that decision by the official fixed?
DubShamrock
New member
Not remembering one rule in a situation I can understand. But there were what ? At least 5 officials at that table watching that match and no one spoke up ? Good ole boys.How can any process that qualifies an official that makes this mistake a "state" official? There is simply no excuse for an official to make this fundamental mistake at that level. None.
This happened with a kid from Massillon Perry in the blood rounds. The kid got screwed the whole match and gave up a late reversal due to the bopper not hitting the referee until two seconds after the match was over.Not remembering one rule in a situation I can understand. But there were what ? At least 5 officials at that table watching that match and no one spoke up ? Good ole boys.
CHTigerNation
Member
That's a problem. Refs do hold grudges and it is the kids that suffer. Refs making it about their ego is not good for sport. These coaches put in time and effort with these kids and have a vested interest in their success/results and officials should see it as just that. Not this person challenges my so called "authority" so next time I'm going to throw him out. Tell your friend to think about the kids which we all should be doing. If it wasn't for the kids the coaches wouldn't be there to even question their "authority" I mean calls/judgement, Just my opinionhim and I buried the hatchet and I truly hope you don't. I have no I'll will toward him at all. it happened and is a bygone. but refs are humans and prone to errors just like all of us are.
sadly, I have another ref/ friend that has told me point blank there is a coach here in Ohio- I wont say his name- that he looks forward to throwing out during a critical time just to get him.
I have known enough officials to know beyond a doubt that the mass majority of officials I've worked with would not fall in the category above. However, officials do have memories and are not perfect, so depending on the past scenario, their radar will go up when a certain coach appears mat side. That might put them on a shorter leash, but 90-95% of officials will make their decisions as professionals.Refs do hold grudges and it is the kids that suffer. Refs making it about their ego is not good for sport.
CHTigerNation
Member
That's fine, but again the coaches are by-products, the ones doing the dirty work are on the mats (kids) so if a ref is at any point thinking about the coaches sitting in chair they are off to wrong start. We say all the time it's about the kids it's about the kids, but then we have Refs making statements like that saying they are waiting to throw a coach out at a crucial time. What if that time is a kids last shot, and that coach is the one that puts him/her at ease while wrestling.I have known enough officials to know beyond a doubt that the mass majority of officials I've worked with would not fall in the category above. However, officials do have memories and are not perfect, so depending on the past scenario, their radar will go up when a certain coach appears mat side. That might put them on a shorter leash, but 90-95% of officials will make their decisions as professionals.
We all need to do better, as humans we can make mistakes ,but it's only a mistake when it's an honest one. is what I was always told
I call BS on this post. IF this was ever said by an official in NE Ohio it would consist of less than 1%. IF you ever heard an official say this, you'd be negligent for not taking it to a higher up. That statement would not be tolerated.but then we have Refs making statements saying they are waiting to throw a coach out at a crucial time.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
I completely agree with what you are saying. But the coaches also need to remember it is about the kids and not make it a d*ck measuring contest with the ref.That's fine, but again the coaches are by-products, the ones doing the dirty work are on the mats (kids) so if a ref is at any point thinking about the coaches sitting in chair they are off to wrong start. We say all the time it's about the kids it's about the kids, but then we have Refs making statements like that saying they are waiting to throw a coach out at a crucial time. What if that time is a kids last shot, and that coach is the one that puts him/her at ease while wrestling.
We all need to do better, as humans we can make mistakes ,but it's only a mistake when it's an honest one. is what I was always told
CHTigerNation
Member
You call BS on my post? I wasn't the one who said it, someone else said and I responded hopefully you just responded to wrong post, or are you having technically difficulty?I call BS on this post. IF this was ever said by an official in NE Ohio it would consist of less than 1%. IF you ever heard an official say this, you'd be negligent for not taking it to a higher up. That statement would not be tolerated.
CHTigerNation
Member
Go read the post by wrestlfan he saidI call BS on this post. IF this was ever said by an official in NE Ohio it would consist of less than 1%. IF you ever heard an official say this, you'd be negligent for not taking it to a higher up. That statement would not be tolerated.
"I have another ref/ friend that has told me point blank there is a coach here in Ohio- I wont say his name- that he looks forward to throwing out during a critical time just to get him."
But you call BS on my post he was the one that said it my response was to him saying that, you have to read EVERTHING in context before you get all worked up and calling BS, and then go back and read my response and maybe you will understand my post
CHTigerNation
Member
Exactly that's why ended with all need to do better. I think the part about the ref was more elaborating because it was in response to the post about someones friend is a a ref and said he is waiting to throw a coach out at a crucial time.I completely agree with what you are saying. But the coaches also need to remember it is about the kids and not make it a d*ck measuring contest with the ref.
WBbleacher creature
Member
I could tell where an official was from after about 2 or 3 matches of watching them. That is a problem. What was more troubling is some that I know to be very good in our area were falling in line with the others and making calls I had never seen them make before. I'm guessing that is because they were some of the younger guys and trying to take in some words from their seniors. I did see those guys make some changes back towards normal by the late rounds. I don't have answers to this but I don't think I've seen any I agree with on here yet.
I don't believe he is officiating anymoreGo read the post by wrestlfan he said
"I have another ref/ friend that has told me point blank there is a coach here in Ohio- I wont say his name- that he looks forward to throwing out during a critical time just to get him."
But you call BS on my post he was the one that said it my response was to him saying that, you have to read EVERTHING in context before you get all worked up and calling BS, and then go back and read my response and maybe you will understand my post
Plus, refs have no friends.I don't believe he is officiating anymore
We were on deck, directly behind the Brecksville coaches, while Brecksville and Highland were wrestling (113 Sunday am)...I watched a ref scold the Brecksville kid, loudly, and then take it out on him with one of the most absurd stall calls I've ever seen. Thankfully the Brecksville kid kept his composure and won the match. I also watched this same official use his "authority" to call an injury time for a wrestler over the weekend and then cut it off with zero communication, at any point before or after calling for the injury, with trainers, the wrestler or his coaches. He was also one of the refs during the D1 106 final. This dude is never admitting he was wrong and correcting an error....
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LucMurphy134
Well-known member
If this was Secrist/ Bickerton, I'm with you. Scolded Brecksville for pointing out opponent was lined up wrong " Don't you ever address me again", then hit him w/ stalling 2 seconds after he secures a TD.We were on deck, directly behind the Brecksville coaches, while Brecksville and Wadsworth were wrestling (113 Sunday am)...I watched a ref scold the Brecksville kid, loudly, and then take it out on him with one of the most absurd stall calls I've ever seen. Thankfully the Brecksville kid kept his composure and won the match. I also watched this same official use his "authority" to call an injury time for a wrestler over the weekend and then cut it off with zero communication, at any point before or after calling for the injury, with trainers, the wrestler or his coaches. He was also one of the refs during the D1 106 final. This dude is never admitting he was wrong and correcting an error....
we had an entire officiating crew get pulled off our mat at schoolboy duals for what they were saying into the mic live on flo. telling coaches to throw bricks and overturning calls. We had one kid (drew Moro) get his hand raised and leave the mat THREE times for one match. yet he called back out to wrestle
SOME officials need to be done away with ... period.. sadly, refs will be very vocal in calling out coaches and fans yet remain silent when it is one of their own. Tthis is a serious double standard they find it in them to ignore. Be vocal with calling out both sides or don't be vocal at all.
SOME officials need to be done away with ... period.. sadly, refs will be very vocal in calling out coaches and fans yet remain silent when it is one of their own. Tthis is a serious double standard they find it in them to ignore. Be vocal with calling out both sides or don't be vocal at all.
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I have often thought that when coach goes to the table and no change in a ruling has been made, the OPPOSING coach should go to the table and ask why that other coach has not been hit with a Coaching Misconduct. After all the opposing coach is simply asking if the ref has not applied the required rule! Amirite?You forgot to add, per rule 7-5-4, that if there is no misapplication of a rule, it is coaches misconduct and it is penalized per penalty chart.
I was coaching a dual this year at VAC duals. gold pool finals. We have a kid go into ultimate ride out. My kid goes down. Top guy has a stalling call. My kid gets straight to his feet and top kids drops to an ancle. At this point there was 25 seconds left. My kid is kicking around the mat circling, Bottom guy is holding an ancle. Im yelling at the ref to make a call. With nine second left, the ref stops it and calls the top guy for stalling and we get the point to win. Kids shake hands and a hand gets raised. The opposing coach goes to the table throwing a fit that it should have been a stalemate. The opposing coach gets the call changed to a stalemate and they put nine second back on the clock. At that point my kid isn't going to win. I went to the table. The ref told me to sit down and I said I was challenging application of the rule and to get the head ref to the table. Parents and fans were going crazy. My point was that it should have been a stalemate with 20 seconds left not nine second and that the clock should be started with 20 seconds not one. Kudos to the opposing coach for getting the call changed to a stalemate but I still think it should have went to 20 seconds on the clock, not 1.
our guy was martez sheard he is really really good.. he was wrestling wenrich 2 of the top 5 guys in the country. it was a great match
our guy was martez sheard he is really really good.. he was wrestling wenrich 2 of the top 5 guys in the country. it was a great match
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Yes sir, that's the match. And he added "Do you hear me, don't do that EVER again"...kudos to the Brecksville staff and Seacrist for keeping their composure....If this was Secrist/ Bickerton, I'm with you. Scolded Brecksville for pointing out opponent was lined up wrong " Don't you ever address me again", then hit him w/ stalling 2 seconds after he secures a TD.
TheeVinceD
New member
I’ve been away from the sport for 5 years and recently came back as a volunteer asst coach at a local HS. It’s worse than it appears. As there are reasons, there are many at fault.
When I crawled away, I had to call Toby Dunlop to inform him that I had to give up my contract at Ironman due to an injury. I always felt that if I couldn’t be in position as an official, it’s a disservice to the athletes, coaches and fans to take the $. That has never been a universal sentiment. Especially when it comes to OHSAA events.
As a former official, it’s stupid for a coach to not know the rule book. The NFHS Rule Book. Because the officials certainly don’t know the Rule Book. They don’t have to know the Rules. OHSAA allows a license with a 70% passing test. Doesn’t really scream confidence in the work pool.
In regards to the OP, I understand your frustration and how coaching gamesmanship takes away from the natural flow of the match. But why give the coach a chance? I’m taken to the table because of my calls. It’s really that simple. And missed calls or points are the very opportunity each coach should decide if this is worth pointing out.
Just this season, I took a young official to the table to question a call awarded after the period. I got warned lol. I asked why the points were awarded and he looked away as he gave a lukewarm reply. He became agitated when I kept moving my body into his line of vision. Told me he didn’t have to look at me...to which I replied “you do if you want me to believe you “. Now he has to give me an answer as to why he awarded a reversal after time had expired. His explanation includes he met near fall criteria....really? After time had expired, near fall criteria, a 3 count? I then point out Rule 3 Section1, the Responsibilities of the Official which he was clueless of. This person worked a Sectional. He’s on the fast track to building a brand for himself. In the Central District, he will be rewarded for being useless and arrogant.
When I’m asked why I don’t officiate any longer, especially by present officials, I tell them the answer is in that very same NFHS Rule Book. Rule 3 Section 2, the Responsibility of the Assistant. As an Assistant Official it’s my duty to confer with the Lead Official if I disagree with their call. I’m out there with a person who was only expected to get a little over 2 out of every 3 calls right to get their license. And the Lead doesn’t have to change the call...according to the Rule Book. Everybody thinks I’m in cahoots with this barnyard animal because nobody knows the rules. No Thanks.
When I crawled away, I had to call Toby Dunlop to inform him that I had to give up my contract at Ironman due to an injury. I always felt that if I couldn’t be in position as an official, it’s a disservice to the athletes, coaches and fans to take the $. That has never been a universal sentiment. Especially when it comes to OHSAA events.
As a former official, it’s stupid for a coach to not know the rule book. The NFHS Rule Book. Because the officials certainly don’t know the Rule Book. They don’t have to know the Rules. OHSAA allows a license with a 70% passing test. Doesn’t really scream confidence in the work pool.
In regards to the OP, I understand your frustration and how coaching gamesmanship takes away from the natural flow of the match. But why give the coach a chance? I’m taken to the table because of my calls. It’s really that simple. And missed calls or points are the very opportunity each coach should decide if this is worth pointing out.
Just this season, I took a young official to the table to question a call awarded after the period. I got warned lol. I asked why the points were awarded and he looked away as he gave a lukewarm reply. He became agitated when I kept moving my body into his line of vision. Told me he didn’t have to look at me...to which I replied “you do if you want me to believe you “. Now he has to give me an answer as to why he awarded a reversal after time had expired. His explanation includes he met near fall criteria....really? After time had expired, near fall criteria, a 3 count? I then point out Rule 3 Section1, the Responsibilities of the Official which he was clueless of. This person worked a Sectional. He’s on the fast track to building a brand for himself. In the Central District, he will be rewarded for being useless and arrogant.
When I’m asked why I don’t officiate any longer, especially by present officials, I tell them the answer is in that very same NFHS Rule Book. Rule 3 Section 2, the Responsibility of the Assistant. As an Assistant Official it’s my duty to confer with the Lead Official if I disagree with their call. I’m out there with a person who was only expected to get a little over 2 out of every 3 calls right to get their license. And the Lead doesn’t have to change the call...according to the Rule Book. Everybody thinks I’m in cahoots with this barnyard animal because nobody knows the rules. No Thanks.
jhoward1972
Member
mustache or grey hair?We were on deck, directly behind the Brecksville coaches, while Brecksville and Highland were wrestling (113 Sunday am)...I watched a ref scold the Brecksville kid, loudly, and then take it out on him with one of the most absurd stall calls I've ever seen. Thankfully the Brecksville kid kept his composure and won the match. I also watched this same official use his "authority" to call an injury time for a wrestler over the weekend and then cut it off with zero communication, at any point before or after calling for the injury, with trainers, the wrestler or his coaches. He was also one of the refs during the D1 106 final. This dude is never admitting he was wrong and correcting an error....
Grey hair w/ goateemustache or grey hair?
2021,2022, the officiating was excellent at the state level and perhaps the best level Ive witnessed. Last year was good but the new mats definitely affected the out of bounds calls . This year the mats affected the out of bounds calls and there were definitely more out of shape officials and a few arrogant ones as well. In addition, the PD calls and fake injury times were at a all time high. The PD calls on top could be impacted by cross officiating girls matches.
We need to adjust mat color, tidy up out of bounds calls, clean up post celebrations,have free injury time once a tournament next one is stall, then a point. 126D1 and 190 D1 had the same wrestlers use injury time every match. Bad thing is theyre from top 6 teams and their coaches know better than that. The 190 used it multiple times at Darby......unacceptable.
Over all I give 2024 OHSA officiating a B. 2021=A+, 2022=A, 2023=A-, 2024=B. Theyre letting guys wrestle and way less subjective BS stall calls to give guys wins.
We need to adjust mat color, tidy up out of bounds calls, clean up post celebrations,have free injury time once a tournament next one is stall, then a point. 126D1 and 190 D1 had the same wrestlers use injury time every match. Bad thing is theyre from top 6 teams and their coaches know better than that. The 190 used it multiple times at Darby......unacceptable.
Over all I give 2024 OHSA officiating a B. 2021=A+, 2022=A, 2023=A-, 2024=B. Theyre letting guys wrestle and way less subjective BS stall calls to give guys wins.
BTW, somebody can get 100% on the test but isnt physically or emotionally stable to officiate. Id rather have a guy get a 70% but be emotionally stable and not hungover or grouchy Saturday/Sunday morning. Go to bed after you coach or officiate instead of hitting the booze. The athletes and fans deserve better from us
TheeVinceD
New member
Eh yeah. LPW, are you suggesting the officials not meet in a bar the night before the State meet? Breaking decades of tradition?
I’m sorry but the day the Coaches Association agreed to essentially give up their vote as to which officials work the State tourneys for a 7th - 8th place matches to be wrestled at the Schott, all hell done broke loose. They are free to put a guy who bellied up to the bar at Carsonie’s stretching his 3XL shirt on Thursday night who obviously hasn’t looked at the Rule Book since his 70% passing test.
Giving up your voice for 42 total matches doesn’t help matters.
I’m sorry but the day the Coaches Association agreed to essentially give up their vote as to which officials work the State tourneys for a 7th - 8th place matches to be wrestled at the Schott, all hell done broke loose. They are free to put a guy who bellied up to the bar at Carsonie’s stretching his 3XL shirt on Thursday night who obviously hasn’t looked at the Rule Book since his 70% passing test.
Giving up your voice for 42 total matches doesn’t help matters.
I think the officiating has been
pretty darn good the last 4-5:years and I give them great grades and compliments over that time in person and on here. Theyve worked very hard to improve the overall quality and consistency of the calls all year.
The associations have done an ecellent job getting more and different officials into the mix and letting them grow and mature into good officials. They care and listen to our concerns then try to make things great. I think the vast majority are fit, fair,know the rules and are great guys that really love wrestling and officiating.
I guess my suggestions would be ; you cant soar with the eagles when you hoot with the owls, so make a choice and do your best. Fellowship is important in any institution but dont go overboard. Then your EQ is more important than your IQ when it comes to officiating/coaching/life.
pretty darn good the last 4-5:years and I give them great grades and compliments over that time in person and on here. Theyve worked very hard to improve the overall quality and consistency of the calls all year.
The associations have done an ecellent job getting more and different officials into the mix and letting them grow and mature into good officials. They care and listen to our concerns then try to make things great. I think the vast majority are fit, fair,know the rules and are great guys that really love wrestling and officiating.
I guess my suggestions would be ; you cant soar with the eagles when you hoot with the owls, so make a choice and do your best. Fellowship is important in any institution but dont go overboard. Then your EQ is more important than your IQ when it comes to officiating/coaching/life.
TheeVinceD
New member
Sir, I personally hold myself to higher standards. I also realize it's absurd to hold others to those same standards. Except when it comes to Officiating. If you are cashing the checks then knowing the Rule Book and using the proper mechanics COME WITH THE JOB. And more importantly, the athletes deserve your 100 % attention throughout the match. I assure you, that’s what they got every time I stepped on the mat.
May I suggest a different view? The athletes compete during each OHSAA event in the hopes of advancing to the next level, each aspiring to a Goal. That ultimate level is the State Championship. Without advancing from the Sectional the thru District/Regional Tournaments, the athletes cannot compete at the State Tournament. The kids accept that there are only 8 individuals that are All State Placers. Please remember to let the various associations know this part...The Sectional Tournament is part of the State Tournament.
The problem is you’re spouting everything Jim Vreeland sells. They can sugarcoat it all but not everyone in the association is capable of handling a high level match. Jim being a prime example. When you make your name as an Official because of how “controversial” you are, it’s because you screwed up in a big moment/s.
The rotation system rewards undeserving officials to work a mat at the Schott. Period. And without the Coaches Association to keep the Sport in check, it’s a watered down product. With no checks in place, every ham hock who shouldn’t work a Reserve dual gets a District contract, provided they get on the Association boards (thus doubling your Coaches Vote on the pt system) and of course kiss the District Board Member’$ behind.
In Jim’s world, the kids will live with the cream rising to the top while the adults who can’t rise, live in ‘every participant is a winner‘!
May I suggest a different view? The athletes compete during each OHSAA event in the hopes of advancing to the next level, each aspiring to a Goal. That ultimate level is the State Championship. Without advancing from the Sectional the thru District/Regional Tournaments, the athletes cannot compete at the State Tournament. The kids accept that there are only 8 individuals that are All State Placers. Please remember to let the various associations know this part...The Sectional Tournament is part of the State Tournament.
The problem is you’re spouting everything Jim Vreeland sells. They can sugarcoat it all but not everyone in the association is capable of handling a high level match. Jim being a prime example. When you make your name as an Official because of how “controversial” you are, it’s because you screwed up in a big moment/s.
The rotation system rewards undeserving officials to work a mat at the Schott. Period. And without the Coaches Association to keep the Sport in check, it’s a watered down product. With no checks in place, every ham hock who shouldn’t work a Reserve dual gets a District contract, provided they get on the Association boards (thus doubling your Coaches Vote on the pt system) and of course kiss the District Board Member’$ behind.
In Jim’s world, the kids will live with the cream rising to the top while the adults who can’t rise, live in ‘every participant is a winner‘!