Yes, they can with oh. They choose not to. Lots of past thinking mentality is their problem.
Possible ref boycott in NEO. Is this statewide?
- Thread starter tom 48
- Start date
That I can answer. It was due to the cost and administrative oversight needs. Secondary was numbers and the fact that should an official get hurt during the test they would be liable.
They choose not to because they’ve been informed that if they get involved with regular season pay, officials will be considered OHSAA employees.
so sure, I guess they CAN. But they never will.
AllSports12
Moderator
But is is funny ?
No it has nothing to do with that. If that was the case assignors and ADs could be considered employers. It has to do with a “that’s the way we’ve always done it” mindset, the huge administrative cost associated with it, the fact they’d have to deal with someone getting a massive raise and others getting a massive cut, and having to change culture for thousands of affected parties among other reasons.
Many states have statewide scales and avoid the issue of employer-employee.
Like many things it comes down to change resistance. I’ve been in these conversations. It’s a refusal above all other things because it’s easier to let others fight the battle. Remember most (not all) of the higher ups in OHSAA are retired from their fields and are doing this as a sunset job to feel like they are valued. They’re not bad people but they’re trying to do as little as possible.
I worked at the OHSAA for 8 years. It is because of the reason I stated. They’ve been told point blank by the state of Ohio that they would be considered employers of officials if they set fees for regular season.
They would lose many and gain none. So yeah.
doubtme
Go outside nerd.
I wasn't using serve others in terms of officiating i was more in general with life instead of just being about yourself based on the post I referenced.
Taking another tangent here, young unmarried officials are just not experienced enough to absorb the verbal abuse. Married guys (gals as well ) have been in intense training in this area. "What are you blind? It was right in front of you! Your not even looking! That's not right, from the way I see it you are making the wrong call Mr. "
A few years of marriage and nobody will find the angry calls from the sidelines out of place or unexpected.
On the more serious side of this topic, I had no idea pay was as low as it is. Someone mentioned travel being an hour each way. Assuming 60mph that's 120 miles. 120 @ $.40/ mile operating expense (government allows more like $.60/mile) is half your pay gone just in travel. So taking the remaining $50 or so and dividing it over a 6 hour period ( one post above suggested 4:30 PM- 10:30 PM tied up exclusively for a game of football) is around $8 /hr. When fast food is paying $14 / hr down the block that sounds more economically viable as a service to others, and takes up half the time to make same money.
It's not really about the money though is it? I have given 10 years of my evenings away 20-25 times per year working in an unpaid "official position" at the scorers table or moving chains. When I have an hour to drive to an unpaid contest my kids are not participating in I figure I am out approximately $50 even if I get in for free. Does not bother me in the least, and the coaches are very thoughtfully generous with gift cards in appreciation for service.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
With all due respect because chain and table crews are an extremely important part of any officiating crew, there is a big difference between being in one of those roles and being on the court or field.
And yes, no one should have an expectation of getting rich off officiating high school sports, but it’s not unreasonable to expect that you get paid enough to come out in the green, or at the very least break even which a lot of officials can’t even do nowadays. The average person doesn’t realize how much unpaid time is required just to be licensed, and even more if you want to be a really good football official – meetings, rules study, film review, buying uniforms, etc.
As I said earlier, officiating is a business.
I'd say I broke even or lost money over the 17 years of officiating I did if I include wear and tear on my vehicle and gas money. I didn't start or end bc of the money, but when gas prices go up and the game fee stays the same you can see where officials are coming from before they talk about fans/coach/player behavior. And as a volunteer chain member or score keeper you get zero abuse from the fan/coaches/players. If you got cat called every game as a volunteer at those positions you wouldn't put up with it at all, unless you enjoy verbal abuse. I personally enjoyed watching game film of every game our Association had on hudl and loved discussing plays with crews from other games, and sodas after a warm fall game, but the overall time away/pay was not worth all the extra BS that comes with it. There is a reason NFL officials get paid as much as they do, and take the verbal abuse they do. They wouldn't do it for a $70 game check.
I would not agree table scorekeepers get zero abuse. Its less for certain if the table is on the home side if the floor for basketball, but if it's in the visitors side, things can get pretty dicey at times.
A few years back when they instituted the official score keeper wears a ref shirt, that was a terrible idea if the table was on the visitors side in a heated contest. More than once a game ended with the "real" officials running off the floor and out of verbal reach, but the official score keeper with the Ref shirt was still available to recieve threats and fan opinions of the officials. Won't go into it here but one such time if the AD had not intervened it would have gotten really ugly. You are correct about coaches comments, seldom will they say anything, but every now and then.....
As an official you can't take what fans say personal. Of course I'm older but usually fans are letting out frustration. In over 40 years I've never had a fan threaten me, an I've done multiple sports. The state is it making harder for new officials then ever. When I first got my license you requested a rule book . studied it then took a test, cost $6, the test was monitired by the local association secretary an graded . needed 80 to pass. If someone got close to 80 but was short you ref a scrimage or two with them an seen how they did,if they could ref you passed them, because some people don't test well. Now you must send the state upfront money for supplies take classes for a couple of months buy your gear ($$$) then take a test on a computer which gives you no slack. No matter how good a official you are if the computer says no 80% you are out. How many young kids have an extra 500-600 dollars laying around just to attempt to be an official. Older officials are going to be upset but with the shortage they should go back to two person basketball an 4 man football. Also as officials we make enough money really . varsity 60-70 dollars a game is fine, don't price the families out of attending as many games as possible.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
The mentality you have (“don’t rock the boat”) is exactly why we are in the position we are today. You’re more concerned about families paying a couple extra bucks to go to a game than ensuring your fellow officials aren’t losing money. Are you serious?
Go back to 2-man for varsity basketball and 4-man for varsity football? How tone deaf can you be? Do you honestly think more officials won’t hang it up before going back to those antiquated mechanics?
Pretty antiquated comments unless it was all in jest. I've never done basketball but loved having those guys on the sidelines as they had better skills with handling the coaches. Do you know how much sh%t you get as an official in a non-competitive 7 man game? You realize they moved to 5 man crews bc of the increase of the passing game and the coaches still aren't happy. Like I said, me stopping wasn't a money issue (upfront or what I was getting paid per game) it was a collection of the pay, time away and all the BS. Put that package together, present to 100 people and how many would be excited about it? Cut it back to four man crews and how many would even begrudgingly sign up?
Those antiquate mechanics served the game well for a number of years. It's better to have two officials at a game then no game at all. If you love what you are doing for the right reason, then you won't quit. If your in it for the wrong reason then it's best you get out. The kids don't care how many officials work their game, they just want to play. By going back to two man basketball even if 25% quit you still will have more officials to cover games.
devilbuck98
Member
So, if OHSAA isn't allowed to set the pay scale, how do all of you feel about schools using OHSAA pay as a starting point? ie, paying a % of what is paid at Sectional, District, or state tournament level. I feel like if everyone can see where the rates come from, everyone can make a better decision. What's happening now feels like the wild west.
I absolutely agree that fees need to go up, but picking arbitrary numbers out of the air or cherry picking the highest or lowest pay in the state are doing everyone a disservice on both sides.
Also, do you feel that regular season pay should be lower than first round tournament pay? Some of these requests are coming in at 13-15% over last years sectional tournament pay (given I have not seen the sectional pay increases for 2022-23, maybe they are "on par" with the request).
Part of me feels like postseason pay should always be higher because of the higher stakes. But, I've talked to a few officials who don't see it that way.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
They served the game well because the game was different when those antiquated mechanics were being used. Not that hard to understand.
Since you apparently like to take the moral high ground and think we should work for free, I’ll PM you my mailing address so you can send me all your game checks.
Maybe it’s time for YOU to hang it up since you long for the good ol’ days where 4-man mechanics was a good way to officiate a varsity football game.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
First, it’s not hard to hit the quote button when you are responding to me.
Second, you clearly don’t realize that you are in the overwhelming minority of those who feel that it’s a fair amount. If you took the time to read this thread you’d realize that even most non-officials admit that it’s not enough.
No amount of times that you claim moral righteousness with your “not in it for the right reasons” garbage will change that fact.
As my mother always said: “Wake up and smell the coffee.”
With inflation 60-70 isn’t enough when you couple it with all the BS you put up with even off the field (ADs not responding to emails, no one to let you into your locker rooms, no one to keep the nut jobs from getting in your face walking off the field). The Jr league my son played in use to use “volunteer” dads to officiate bc it was a school league. Well guess what the volunteer dads quit pretty quick bc the coaches are insane and volunteers don’t know even the most basic rules and enforcements. Thus our association took over and team fees went up, but they got better officials and ones who cared.
We can’t get by without refs who aren’t in it for the money. There aren’t enough people.
And being in it for the money isn’t a bad thing! “I got into officiating because it pays well, and I want to keep getting games, so I keep myself fit/learn the rules/do my best” etc. sounds good to me!
zebrastripes
Well-known member
One of the main reasons officials aspire to advance to college and beyond?
You guessed it: money.
Is it the only reason? Usually not, but money is absolutely a motivation at all levels of officiating. Those who tell you otherwise are ignorant.
The best officials on and off the field/court, in my experience, treat it as a business. And none of them would do it if they weren’t getting paid.
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Wrestling is a little different in that if you and I wrestle, and you beat me head to head, I don't have a lot of room to run my mouth.
Wrestling fans for the most part are quite good, very few issues.
Regarding the pay, it might seem like a lot until you find out that I am on the mat from 4 pm till 9 or 10 on Friday night and back on the mat on Saturday from 10 am till conclusion. It is a LOT of hours. Not too many FB officials put in hours like that.
We had one FB official in our wrestling association and he gave up wrestling (still does FB) about 5 years ago. When I asked him why he said the toll on his body was MUCH less on the FB field.
Dual meets pay much like a FB game.
sidelinerb
Active member
Pay the Zebras. Long overdue.
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
The two are not mutually exclusive.
I love what I do but I have so many things to keep track of that I have to treat it like a business, if for no reason other than tax time.
Something needs to be done to attract and retain more officials
So it's a lack of religion problem?