Do you have the Harbin formula? That didn't seem to be the case for Clyde. They got a ton of points for beating 4-6 and 3-7 D3's.
Pac 2019
- Thread starter Stack Attack
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thePITman
Well-known member
L1 points per victory, corresponding to the division of the team you beat.
L2 points per victory of the teams you beat, corresponding to the division of the team they beat.
While it is valuable to beat teams who are in higher divisions for more L1 points, it is a bad trade-off if those teams do not win many games. Conversely, if you beat a team in a lower division that wins a lot of games, you'll get more L2 points that likely make up for the L1 point differential. But it's not that easy... Typically larger schools play other larger schools, while smaller schools play other smaller schools; so chances are good those L2 points you're getting by beating a good, smaller school are for wins against other small schools, so you would need fewer wins by a larger school to make up for it. There is no correct answer, but I'd always just try to err on the side of scheduling teams who will win games. You don't want to be in the boat of the two undefeated teams this year who missed the playoffs.
The only exception would be your famous "Harbin Cow" such as Timken. A very large school (D2-ish) that will get 2-4 wins against other D2-ish schools, but everybody in the conference will beat them, hence good L1 points and not-so-bad L2 points.
Thank you. Great explanation. So wouldn't an Ellet or Kenmore Garfield be an ideal non-conference schedule ala Timken?
thePITman
Well-known member
For Harbin points, yes. But I would argue "What kind of gate will they bring?" is a more pressing factor for non-conference games. While it's important to keep in mind the slight nuances that might affect Harbin points and a potential playoff appearance, it's probably more important to the school to find a rivalry game or a school who will bring lots of fans. Again, scheduling is not easy; lots of factors.
Yes, Ellet and KG would be huge Harbin cow. Not very good D2/D3 school in an absolutely terrible conference so they will always have 4-7 wins against other D2/D3 schools.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
Closely related to "what kind of a gate will they bring?" when scheduling teams like Kenmore-Garfield, North, Firestone, etc. is they're almost certain to demand a guaranteed payout which, unless you have a strong home following, can cut into the amount of revenue the game generates for your program. My school played K-G in week 9 a few years ago on a chilly rainy night, and I wouldn't be surprised if we lost money on the game after giving K-G their payout, paying the officials and game workers, and paying the utility bills for the night. That game did not draw for anything on either side of the stadium.
Because Ellet has its own stadium and a bit of a community following, you're more likely to be able to do a "home and home" with them which eliminates the need for a payout. However, every once in awhile albeit less frequently in recent years, Ellet produces a good team that is likely to beat a middle-of-the-road DIV/DV program which defeats the purpose of scheduling them for points.
As you said, scheduling is not easy. The teams you want to play may not want to play you and vice versa. End of the day though, I would say either schedule nonconference games that will draw money or schedule nonconference games you can win.
the123kidz
Well-known member
Easily our 2 biggest "draws" this year were Aurora and Revere. Both schools are D3 and travel well. We split the games losing to Aurora but beating Revere. Revere ended up 5-5 but beat another D3 7-3 team in Bay week 10 and 9-1Buckeye week 1. Is that what is meant by a Harbin cow? We are a D4.
thePITman
Well-known member
The prototypical "Harbin Cow," IMO, is a bad team in a high division that will win a handful of games against bad schools in a high division. In your case, those were legitimate teams, so you went a step beyond. Haha!
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
Harbin Cows are generally teams who win a lot of games on paper, but in reality, are not nearly as good as their record suggests. Their gaudy records are generally products of weak competition. If anything, Bay and Buckeye would be the Harbin Cows in your example. Both had good records and made the playoffs but played in a weak league and were beaten by a .500 team from a tougher league.
The easiest example would be whichever team finishes 2nd to Glenville in the Cleveland Senate League each year. In '06, my school made the DIV playoffs at 5-5 thanks in part to a 4 TD win over a DII Ellet team that went 8-2. Ellet was a major Harbin Cow that year for my school.
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the123kidz
Well-known member
So replacing Canton South with Revere was a good move in regards to Harbins for us.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
It certainly was. VASJ wasn't a bad pickup either. They gave you more points this year than Crestwood did last year. The key is to not only schedule teams you can beat but also teams that you know will win many games. Scheduling a team that has a track record of winning 2 games or less will get you a win but won't generate many points.
My school went 6-4 this year. Unfortunately, they were on the outside looking in all season with regards to making the playoffs because their 6 wins came against: a DVI team that started out 0-4 before finishing 5-5 playing in a DV-DVI league (they ended up making the playoffs in a weak region), a DVII team that went 6-3 playing mainly DIV-DVII teams, a DII team that went 2-8, a DIV team that went 2-8, a DIV team that went 1-9 (the lone win came via forfeit after a 44-6 loss on the field), and a 5-5 DIII team whose wins came against teams that were DII-DIV. My school basically lost ground with every win they got from the teams that won 2 games or less. The wins over the DVI and DVII teams kept them even, and the only win that helped them gain much ground was the win over the DIII team, but it was too little, too late.
iveseenitall
ne nothi tere te
If the PAC adds any teams, Loudonville will be shown the door. Loudonville is not a full member because of travel for midweek games and numbers and brings about 50-100 fans for a game, not great revenue generation there. Kick them to the curb and add Moggy, Rootstown or South and its better overall for the conference.
I just did the math, and over the last 5 years, here is the average of how much each of those 5 teams would ADD to your Harbin average if you beat them....as to not let 1 great year mess it up I averaged over 5 years.
Only Coventry would help the league more than Mogadore based on the last 5 years of points. Now, keep in mind, that if Coventry joined they would lose points compared to the league they are in now (mostly D3 vs D4) while Mogadore would gain points (mostly D5/6 to D4). So in the end, if there was a switch, Mogadore would still bring more Harbin's into the PAC than any of the 5 teams I have seen listed in this thread.
Only Coventry would help the league more than Mogadore based on the last 5 years of points. Now, keep in mind, that if Coventry joined they would lose points compared to the league they are in now (mostly D3 vs D4) while Mogadore would gain points (mostly D5/6 to D4). So in the end, if there was a switch, Mogadore would still bring more Harbin's into the PAC than any of the 5 teams I have seen listed in this thread.
| Coventry | 0.817 |
| Mogadore | 0.775146 |
| Norton | 0.774 |
| Springfield | 0.738 |
| Rootstown | 0.72 |
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
I think South has shown interest in the past and would be an excellent fit across all sports. The travel would be relatively easy as the school is located within a 2-3 miles of the 77/30 interchange which makes it easy to reach from any direction for the other PAC schools. The travel would very similar to when Timken was in the league. Plus, South has a new school with good facilities.
third down
Member
South was turned down when Loudonville Orrville and Northwest were admitted.
Agreed South would make plenty of sense however I just don't believe they would get the votes
Agreed South would make plenty of sense however I just don't believe they would get the votes
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
I have no idea why there would be such opposition to admitting South to the league. The school's enrollment is declining like everyone else's, and they haven't shown themselves to be a threat to dominate any league in any sport longterm against similar-sized schools in recent years. South's glory days in boys hoops are behind them. Baseball is generally pretty good but far from invincible.
Does the league just not want a full-fledged 8th team in order to give themselves more scheduling flexibility outside of football? That's not likely given that ADs prefer to have to do as little scheduling as possible. Over the long haul, I'd find South more attractive than Mogadore who would be a constant threat to win league titles in football. Rootstown's not much farther down the road than Mogadore but would be a geographic outlier for the rest of the PAC.
Raylan_Givens
Always right, unless I'm wrong
Agree that South makes much more sense from a size & travel consideration. We all love football on here, but there also are the mid week trips to consider when you commit to adding a team to your league.
third down
Member
I would venture a guess that south would join in a heartbeat. and if what I am told is true, they have petitioned the league several times in the recent past.
fridayfootball
Active member
Mogadore and Rootstown need homes you can get them if you act quickly
Ignore that post above, the numbers came out wrong when I copied/pasted from Excel...
Here is how many points you would have got on average (last 5 years) from those 5 teams.
Coventry-8.17
Mogadore-7.75
Norton-7.74
Springfield-7.38
Rootstown-7.20
Keep in mind that both Rootstown and Mogadore "points gained" would go up due to playing bigger schools in the PAC than the PTC County. For the same reason the other 3 would go down because the schools in the PTC Metro are bigger than the PAC.
Here is how many points you would have got on average (last 5 years) from those 5 teams.
Coventry-8.17
Mogadore-7.75
Norton-7.74
Springfield-7.38
Rootstown-7.20
Keep in mind that both Rootstown and Mogadore "points gained" would go up due to playing bigger schools in the PAC than the PTC County. For the same reason the other 3 would go down because the schools in the PTC Metro are bigger than the PAC.
pcbuck
Well-known member
The Record Courier has done an All Sports Trophy for the last 3-4 years. If I recall Mogadore hasn’t finished in the top 3 for any of those years, usually finishing behind Crestwood, Garfield, and Rootstown. These 3 teams have each won the trophy once the past 3 years.
Mogadore doesn’t have boys or girls soccer and usually does poorly as a team in CC and Track.
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Raylan_Givens
Always right, unless I'm wrong
FINALLY!! Have been waiting for someone to say that since the topic first came up.
Moggy makes some sense, but does anyone think Koach wants 2 teams in league with state titles? Orrville had 5 straight losing seasons before he relented on them.rg, of course, it's 99.9% sure he is retiring at the end of the season.FINALLY!! Have been waiting for someone to say that since the topic first came up.
chinwhip
Active member
I think a Win tonight may cap off a record setting career
chin, tomorrow will be #400. Good time to hang them up officially.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
Good refereeing seems easier to come by when the games are blowouts.
Have you been to any PAC games? 10 minutes spent coming up with rulings. We went 9-1 so its not losses. Our team was undisciplined, I agree. I sympathize with the league in finding referees. Who wants to do this for this pay and unruly behavior by fans? That being said, these referees were way better than our recent experience, win or lose.