When did Jordan play in Ohio?
Ohio's Greatest High School Player Ever
- Thread starter my2sense
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TroyTrojan05
Well-known member
I’m not old. But the best 3 I’ve seen in person... 1. Lebron 2. Kennard 3. Diebler
My old man will swear up and down Dwight Anderson is the best
My old man will swear up and down Dwight Anderson is the best
Oh boy, you're still holding on, I respect it.
eastisbest
Well-known member
yeah but who is second, JJ, Kellogg or James?
SirStanley
Well-known member
The first time I saw LeBron play, he scored a quiet 25 points as a unknown (to me) freshman on St. Vincent-St. Mary's 2001 state championship team (if I remember correctly, Maverick Carter was the all-state player on that team, and Dru Joyce III stole as the smallest man on either team and coming off the bench to go 7-7 from three as SVSM came back from a halftime deficit against Greeneview).
The second time I saw LeBron play, he was a sophomore playing a regular season game in Columbus against powerhouse Oak Hill Academy, led by Carmelo Anthony. LeBron was unbelievable. He carried his team throughout the game, and they had a lead in the final minute (where I believe LeBron missed a couple critical free throws). Oak Hill Academy won the game and eventually the national championship. This was SVSM's only loss in LeBron's first two seasons. After the game, Carmelo and his teammates were saying LeBron was the best player they had ever played against. And he was a sophomore. (Article from 2002: https://247sports.com/college/footb...ur-All-American-Camp-Series-Dallas-162459170/)
During the summer before his junior season, LeBron attended the high-level star basketball camps. Rick Pitino made a statement that only one player in the camp was ready right then for the NBA, and that player wasn't even going to be a senior the following season (I wasn't aware of the Ainge comment mentioned above, but it's in line with Pitino's observation). He became the first junior to be national Gatorade player of the year.
Regardless of what the numbers say, it's hard to imagine anyone in Ohio basketball history has had a more dominant season than what LeBron had as a senior. SVSM dominated numerous top teams around the country. He again won Gatorade national player of the year (only repeat winner?). He was the first to ever be on USA Today's 1st Team All-American squad three years in a row (only?). His team won the national championship. As always, he lived up to the hype in winning the MVP of the McDonald's All-American game.
Jerry Lucas and Clark Kellogg are both super-admirable for their on and off court accomplishments. They are before my time. With LeBron we have one of the -- if not the -- greatest high school basketball players of all time...any state (who compares? Lew Alcindor? Pistol Pete?). With no disrespect to the numerous great players we've seen in this state, this was an easy vote for me.
The second time I saw LeBron play, he was a sophomore playing a regular season game in Columbus against powerhouse Oak Hill Academy, led by Carmelo Anthony. LeBron was unbelievable. He carried his team throughout the game, and they had a lead in the final minute (where I believe LeBron missed a couple critical free throws). Oak Hill Academy won the game and eventually the national championship. This was SVSM's only loss in LeBron's first two seasons. After the game, Carmelo and his teammates were saying LeBron was the best player they had ever played against. And he was a sophomore. (Article from 2002: https://247sports.com/college/footb...ur-All-American-Camp-Series-Dallas-162459170/)
During the summer before his junior season, LeBron attended the high-level star basketball camps. Rick Pitino made a statement that only one player in the camp was ready right then for the NBA, and that player wasn't even going to be a senior the following season (I wasn't aware of the Ainge comment mentioned above, but it's in line with Pitino's observation). He became the first junior to be national Gatorade player of the year.
Regardless of what the numbers say, it's hard to imagine anyone in Ohio basketball history has had a more dominant season than what LeBron had as a senior. SVSM dominated numerous top teams around the country. He again won Gatorade national player of the year (only repeat winner?). He was the first to ever be on USA Today's 1st Team All-American squad three years in a row (only?). His team won the national championship. As always, he lived up to the hype in winning the MVP of the McDonald's All-American game.
Jerry Lucas and Clark Kellogg are both super-admirable for their on and off court accomplishments. They are before my time. With LeBron we have one of the -- if not the -- greatest high school basketball players of all time...any state (who compares? Lew Alcindor? Pistol Pete?). With no disrespect to the numerous great players we've seen in this state, this was an easy vote for me.
eastisbest
Well-known member
Me Too! James was the easiest second place vote I ever gave.
Again, different eras. The marching around the country wasn't in the books in Lucas' time. He didn't have a three point line. He didn't have a Freshman season but we've seen the comments from top college players and pros that came to Middleton to play on the court. His teams won more consecutive high school games than James. How many chamionships were won by Middletown after Lucas left? How many by Akron St V?
I'm mostly saying, there's no obvious about this. The game changed too much between the two phenomenons. If James had been playing for Middletown instead of Lucas against North, they still would have lost. If Lucas was playing for SVSM, they wouldn't have lost to Bacon. There, I said it. I'm standing by it.
Well, it's true, so...
Irish60
Well-known member
Threads like this one pop up every couple of years and they are always entertaining. For me, the best part is to read about players like Larry Hisle and Bevo Francis and the other players of lesser acclaim. (I even still have a baseball card somewhere of Hisle when he was with the Twins. Do they even make those anymore!?!) There will always be the perpetual banter about Lucas versus James (with no way to really settle the argument!). But it is great to recall the lives and times and accomplishments of other players mentioned on this thread.
GoingCoastal
Well-known member
When Lucas played in the 1950s, teams did not travel around the country. There was no mythical national champion. Nor was there a Gatorade player of the year award or USA Today/McDonald’s all-American teams. I did find two awards that spanned the careers of both the Lucas and James. Both were named Mr. Basketball USA in their junior and senior years. Neither garnered that title in their sophomore years (Oscar Robertson and Dajuan Wagner beat out Jerry and LeBron, respectively). Both were also named by Parade Magazine as first team All-Americans in their junior and senior years. That award did not yet exist in Lucas’ sophomore season, while James was tapped for second-team honors as a soph.
So, based on comparable awards, it looks to be a toss-up between the two high school superstars.
Lots of people who weren't around when Lucas was playing easily dismiss him as a #1 pick from the State I get that.
But even back then if you research it throughly you will find several mentions of him being regarded as the #1 Player in the Country . Many HOF College BB Coaches from that era acknowledged that without hesitation or reservation.
He was the 1st ever known to win a State HS , College BB , Olympic Gold Medal and a NBA Championship in a career .
Was voted top 50 NBA Players of All time when that was 1st done .
And as far competition which many use as a measuring point went up against the likes of Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlin, Nate Thurmond , Willis Reed and to many others to mention. In a Era when Center meant Center not guys drifting out to the 3 Pt line . There are very few dominant centers in todays NBA and very few Rim Protectors like the like Lucas battled night in and night out.
He was the 1st to not only be a great rebounder and outlet passer , but also skilled enough in and out of the post to get his on the Offensive end.
But even back then if you research it throughly you will find several mentions of him being regarded as the #1 Player in the Country . Many HOF College BB Coaches from that era acknowledged that without hesitation or reservation.
He was the 1st ever known to win a State HS , College BB , Olympic Gold Medal and a NBA Championship in a career .
Was voted top 50 NBA Players of All time when that was 1st done .
And as far competition which many use as a measuring point went up against the likes of Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlin, Nate Thurmond , Willis Reed and to many others to mention. In a Era when Center meant Center not guys drifting out to the 3 Pt line . There are very few dominant centers in todays NBA and very few Rim Protectors like the like Lucas battled night in and night out.
He was the 1st to not only be a great rebounder and outlet passer , but also skilled enough in and out of the post to get his on the Offensive end.
I love cheeseburgers
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Oscar went to high school in Indiana thus he won’t be on the Ohio high school list
eastisbest
Well-known member
In other words, Lucas did it first. James did what others did but better. Did James change the high school game the way Lucas did?... I've not paid attention enough to comment on that. The few games I saw when Akron came this way for regionals. We'd seen JJ, a big passer that could run the show. Shoot any range, any angle. We'd seen Magic and Kellogg. With James I just remember seeing better but nothing new. Maybe there wasn't much left to invent.
SirStanley
Well-known member
That's some good information about Lucas that I wasn't aware of -- clearly he was a special player. Multiple state championships. NCAA champion and 2x collegiate national player of the year. NBA champion and many time NBA all-star.
We come down to a generational question. I do think it's more difficult to dominate in the current era than it was 60 years ago, but much like the Jordan-LeBron debate, our choice here may come down to a matter of opinion.
SirStanley
Well-known member
Me Too! James was the easiest second place vote I ever gave.
Again, different eras. The marching around the country wasn't in the books in Lucas' time. He didn't have a three point line. He didn't have a Freshman season but we've seen the comments from top college players and pros that came to Middleton to play on the court. His teams won more consecutive high school games than James. How many chamionships were won by Middletown after Lucas left? How many by Akron St V?
I'm mostly saying, there's no obvious about this. The game changed too much between the two phenomenons. If James had been playing for Middletown instead of Lucas against North, they still would have lost. If Lucas was playing for SVSM, they wouldn't have lost to Bacon. There, I said it. I'm standing by it.
Excellent.
It really does come down to impossible comparisons. Assertions about what teams would have done with Lucas-LeBron switches are guesses. It's hard to knock LeBron for failure to match a winning streak that came at the expense of losing to the national champion Oak Hill (in a winnable game), but it's also hard to dock Lucas for failing to win national championships that didn't exist. Both were truly phenomenal players in their respective eras.
I respect your stand. As I mentioned in another post, I think it's harder to dominate in the modern era than it was in previous generations, but it's a matter of opinion that is challenging to persuade those who differ.
eastisbest
Well-known member
Agreeing on how to measure "dominance" would be another can wouldn't it? lol. I'll again note: Middleton won how many championships after Lucas? And Akron how many after Labron? Middleton doesn't win without Lucas. Akron still does. They had what was it, two or three other D1 players on that team? More? I'm comfortable enough to give my slight edge to Lucas. James was much better prepared mentally for the NBA life. And physically? I think the only injury James has had was a nut pull. That's absolutely amazing after all these years.
SirStanley
Well-known member
I think your slight edge to Lucas is defendable, but I don’t agree with your reasoning. I don’t think SVSM wins any of their three state title games (all tight until at least the 4th quarter) without LeBron. There were also multiple close tournament games with Ottawa-Glandorf the Irish probably don’t win without him. Yes, he had a couple teammates play in the MAC, but by 2000 that wasn’t going to be enough to win D2 (or even D3 when they were freshmen/sophomores) state championships. I don’t think post-high school career is part of the discussion; LeBron’s career (during and after high school) has been a contributing factor to future stars attending SVSM. I don’t think there’s an argument over which player has had a better professional career, but I’ll concede that doesn’t necessarily mean LeBron was greater in high school. I do think it’s an indicator of the level of dominance he has had over his particular generation. Lucas’ brilliant career also shows an awesome level of career-long greatness...just to lesser extent...imo.
SirStanley
Well-known member
Here’s the first article listed at Google for “greatest high school basketball players.” It seems to make an effort to free itself from recency bias (for example, it has Lew Alcindor at #1): https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma...hool-basketball-players-of-all-time.htm?amp=1
I hope we can agree that ultimately this is a matter of opinion.
I hope we can agree that ultimately this is a matter of opinion.
eastisbest
Well-known member
Since there are no facts in play, it's not reasoning so much as educated presumption. I was at a couple of those OG games held here. OG had their own D1s including the Pollitz brothers but it was not going to be a 4 on 5 game without James. Figure he was going to be replaced by a player similarly capable as the others and also coached into the system. I felt they were deeper talented than OG in MY opinion, they were equal performers as a team. Memories can be fatal but as I recall it, they held their own when James wasn't on the court. I concluded at the time (can't remember which game) they would have won without him. In my mind, that elevates even more what Bacon accomplished.
edit: I googled. Those games are all on-line so anyone can judge for themselves. I may look at them myself to see how well my memory holds up.
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eastisbest
Well-known member
it's a matter of opinion whether it's a matter of opinion.
Midwest represented pretty well. Only saw a couple of those players in person at different levels. Jealousy for those that saw more and more often.
Irish60
Well-known member
There are some great names on that list. The two that stand out to me as wishing they had better pro careers are Connie Hawkins and O.J. Mayo. Two incredible talents whose lives and careers got sidetracked for different reasons. The Hawk was an incredible athlete and can best be described as the precursor to Julius Erving. But he got blackballed by the NBA because he got caught up in a college point shaving scandal (unfairly as I recall). By the time he was allowed to play he was well past his prime. O.J. Mayo was likewise an amazing talent and should easily be considered as a Top 10 player in Ohio high school history. But his career got derailed by bad decisions and substance abuse. But both were incredible talents.
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SirStanley
Well-known member
it's a matter of opinion whether it's a matter of opinion.
Lol! I am officially out of replies.
tribefan23
Well-known member
Can't compare players from the 50's and 60's to players of the 90's and 2000's. These arguments are always stupid.
Irish60
Well-known member
If you are put off by stupid arguments then I'd strongly suggest you avoid any thread with the word "Massillon" in it!
That's Funny LOL
Lebron came 45 about years after LeBron.
I have all the respect in the world for Lucas, but I have seen clips of sports from the 50s and 60s.
The all around talent of HS basketball IMO was better in James day than in Lucas.
I have seen clips of baseball, basketball, and football from the 50s and 60s. Athletes have progressively gotten better over time.
Personally I think Lucas' and James' legacies and resumes are similarly remarkable...so I generally always going to side with who came second...especially when you are talking over 4 decades difference.