Hammer in High School, Ohio

[jnjcoach]

Anyone heard anything new about hammer in ohio this spring? Is this a dead issue or are their discussions on going in the state? Are universities still going to be running high school hammer meets (like Akron)? Are we still having the unofficial state hammer competition the Sunday after the state meet? Can the OATCCC take over these competitions just like they did the indoor state meet? Let me know your thoughts.

I know they banned it in the summer because people werent doing things in certified cages or were running events and not knowing what they were doing. I also know they threatened eligibility to try to squash competitions.

Why couldnt they go to certifications like they did for pole vault?

Again let me know what you know or think

 

[JAVMAN83]

Anyone heard anything new about hammer in ohio this spring? Is this a dead issue or are their discussions on going in the state? Are universities still going to be running high school hammer meets (like Akron)? Are we still having the unofficial state hammer competition the Sunday after the state meet? Can the OATCCC take over these competitions just like they did the indoor state meet? Let me know your thoughts.

I know they banned it in the summer because people werent doing things in certified cages or were running events and not knowing what they were doing. I also know they threatened eligibility to try to squash competitions.

Why couldnt they go to certifications like they did for pole vault?

Again let me know what you know or think

OHSAA threatened eligibility of athletes? For competing in hammer competitions in season or out of season? They would have ZERO ability to do out of season. Also, who banned what during summer comps? I certainly hope OATCCC continues supporting the weight throw, and that OHSAA reverses its backward decision banning the hammer.

I for one will continue to document Ohio HS hammer throwers into the future. My current all-time boys' list goes all the way down to 150 feet, picking up boys from over 100 years ago!

 

[Rohbino]

There was an old thread about this here.

It's a cool event but there would be a lot of liability costs associated with it. I'm always reminded of the Mason grad that was helping out at a meet at Wheaton College in Illinois and was struck in the head and was tragically killed. I just don't ever see it being a part of OHSAA meets.

 

[psycho_dad]

There was an old thread about this here.

It's a cool event but there would be a lot of liability costs associated with it. I'm always reminded of the Mason grad that was helping out at a meet at Wheaton College in Illinois and was struck in the head and was tragically killed. I just don't ever see it being a part of OHSAA meets.

My thought. Why not do the weight throw instead? Similar enough technique to help transition into college. Adds an event for throwers. Does not require a special cage. Already done at indoor meets.

 

[Altor]

My thought. Why not do the weight throw instead? Similar enough technique to help transition into college. Adds an event for throwers. Does not require a special cage. Already done at indoor meets.

Yes it does. Weight throw cages should have the swinging gates just like a hammer cage.

 

[psycho_dad]

Yes it does. Weight throw cages should have the swinging gates just like a hammer cage.

Does not require a 30 foot tall $40,000 cage and HS disc cage can be easily adapted. I've also seen where instead of the gates they have draped netting for hammer, so that also could be very easily adapted to existing HS facilities. Disc can have an insert put into the ring and cage easily adapted, or weight cages can be put at shot area. Much more easily than a Hammer cage. $4000 - $10,000 for weight vs $40,000 hammer. Also, just the safety of the spectators is usually already accounted for at HS venues already.

Weight is much more doable. IMO

 

[JAVMAN83]

Leave it to OHSAA & ADs to limit opportunities for HS athletes. They've done in 1917 (elimination of the hammer), and in 1938 (elimination of the javelin - instigated by the NFHS, the replacement for the hammer in 1917).

 

[psycho_dad]

Leave it to OHSAA & ADs to limit opportunities for HS athletes. They've done in 1917 (elimination of the hammer), and in 1938 (elimination of the javelin - instigated by the NFHS, the replacement for the hammer in 1917).

If we had hammer and Jav, I don't think we would get through meets. I think we would have to limit the number of throwers and probably limit opportunities even more to only top throwers in all the throws. We would need at least another coach and I don't know how we could get enough people to even run the events. We have a facility that could probably handle the extra two events, but I can't think of many other places that would. What would happen is there would have to be throwers only meets. We would probably (D2 school) only be able to practice the event, have a few meets where they are competed and then really only do it starting at the District meet. We barely get through shot and disc.

I say all that, but I know we would make it work. I just don't know how we would do it without it being more detrimental than beneficial.

 

[EuclidandViren]

If we had hammer and Jav, I don't think we would get through meets.

I 100% agree.

I am for participation and opportunity for athletes. But at the same time Track and Field is killing itself with long meets.

Making meets quicker, more fan-friendly, and appealing to the modern world should be the trend.

Baseball has done this with the pitch clock. The NFL did this with the running clock in 2008.

At best, the average attention span for sports or a movie is less than 3 hours.

 

[JAVMAN83]

I don't think adding both is doable. OHSAA hasn't added any boys field events SINCE 1908! They've added running events, but no field events were ever added. 6 field events were the schedule from 1908-1937, and then it went to 5 and hasn't changed since. What OHSAA has done now is PREVENT schools from doing so on their own period...unless they want to dissociate themselves from OHSAA itself (if only everyone would do that).

I'm all for limiting the number of competitors to 2 per school for major meets. Duals, tris, quads can be done efficiently by limiting to 3 attempts each. That is how we did things back in the day.

 

[Altor]

Duals, tris, quads can be done efficiently by limiting to 3 attempts each.

The rules don't allow for this. Your choices are 4 attempts for everybody or 3 preliminary attempts for everybody and 3 final attempts for finalists.

 

[CC Track Fan]

If we had hammer and Jav, I don't think we would get through meets. I think we would have to limit the number of throwers and probably limit opportunities even more to only top throwers in all the throws. We would need at least another coach and I don't know how we could get enough people to even run the events. We have a facility that could probably handle the extra two events, but I can't think of many other places that would. What would happen is there would have to be throwers only meets. We would probably (D2 school) only be able to practice the event, have a few meets where they are competed and then really only do it starting at the District meet. We barely get through shot and disc.

I say all that, but I know we would make it work. I just don't know how we would do it without it being more detrimental than beneficial.

It is quite common for the throwing events to take a lot longer than the running events are college meets. Your point is very valid concern.

 

[JAVMAN83]

It is quite common for the throwing events to take a lot longer than the running events are college meets. Your point is very valid concern.

That's usually because of poor officiating. I officiated many collegiate meets beyond my own competitive years. Ran a tight ship. A big problem is that too many warm-ups are allowed. The hammer is the most difficult due to the adjustment of cages. However, I ran a major collegiate conference championship that I personally timed each hammer throw and came in just 45 seconds/attempt from the time I called one athlete to the time I called the next. Too many officials don't know what they're doing or are too old move things along quickly. As a former thrower, I observed the field to see where they were in their warm-ups. No flight received more than 15 minutes warm-up, and usually it was reduced to 10-12 minutes as I would prompt the field "any more warm-ups?" HS throwers should be limited to 4 official warm-ups within a circle or on a runway. Anything more indicates that an athlete has not properly warmed-up outside of the circle/runway. As for big invitationals, require sufficient entry standards to limit the fields.

 

[psycho_dad]

That's usually because of poor officiating. I officiated many collegiate meets beyond my own competitive years. Ran a tight ship. A big problem is that too many warm-ups are allowed. The hammer is the most difficult due to the adjustment of cages. However, I ran a major collegiate conference championship that I personally timed each hammer throw and came in just 45 seconds/attempt from the time I called one athlete to the time I called the next. Too many officials don't know what they're doing or are too old move things along quickly. As a former thrower, I observed the field to see where they were in their warm-ups. No flight received more than 15 minutes warm-up, and usually it was reduced to 10-12 minutes as I would prompt the field "any more warm-ups?" HS throwers should be limited to 4 official warm-ups within a circle or on a runway. Anything more indicates that an athlete has not properly warmed-up outside of the circle/runway. As for big invitationals, require sufficient entry standards to limit the fields.

20 throwers on a tight ship with 45 seconds between throws. 2 flights of 10. with 15 min warm up x 2 genders is 1 hour of just warm ups. Let's cut that down to 40 minutes.

20 throwers x 2 genders = 40 throwers x 4 throws each = 160 throws at .45 min/ throw = 72 minutes. (If you go 3 throws each + top 9 to finals you have 174 throws)

40 minutes of warm up + 72 minutes for competition. about 2 hours without cage change.

You could not do that at any meet we go to. We would have to have the Hammer the night before a Saturday meet. We barely get through shot and disc for dual meets. Most teams don't get busses until 4pm and arrive about 4:30-5pm. We throw our JV throwers before the other teams get to our place. Sometimes we send our throwers ahead with parents in cars for away meets to get that going so we finish with daylight.

We have crews that have been doing it for years and are very efficient. I do not see how you can run a HS meet nearly as efficient as a College meet.

Only way I see it being done is if it's the weight throw where it's much more tight and compact. Measuring a 20' throw and then a 60' is much different than a 70' and then a 170'.

 

[ENA2]

I don't believe the original post is about the Hammer being added to the meet events for HS meets. That has never been proposed to my knowlege and has only been discussed on forums like this site. There is discussion about meets that have the correct (safe) facilities to host the event. As of now, it is "outlawed" for HS in the State of Ohio like the Javelin. Even special "Throws only" events are not allowed to have the Hammer. Evidently, there were some meets that were hosting the event without the proper facilities and maybe some spectators or participants were injured or put at risk. In response, The National Federation - NFHS (I believe), has banned the event and the OHSAA meets are governed through that organization. Priviously, the Hammer could be contested if the meet wanted to hold the event...much like the triple jump, or 5000 or shuttle hurldes are held at some meets, with the proper facility. Now, even it the meet is held a a facilty that like a college, where all proper equipment is in place, high school athletes (ohsaa) are not allowed to compete in the event. Would be in danger of losing eligibilty or the host/meet could face penalty.

 

[JAVMAN83]

I'm not arguing that OHSAA make this a standard event. I'm arguing that they ALLOW schools to do it if they wish to. 4pm for buses? That's nuts. We were out the door by 3:30, if not earlier back in the 80s. Especially for a big invitational.

 

[JAVMAN83]

I don't believe the original post is about the Hammer being added to the meet events for HS meets. That has never been proposed to my knowlege and has only been discussed on forums like this site. There is discussion about meets that have the correct (safe) facilities to host the event. As of now, it is "outlawed" for HS in the State of Ohio like the Javelin. Even special "Throws only" events are not allowed to have the Hammer. Evidently, there were some meets that were hosting the event without the proper facilities and maybe some spectators or participants were injured or put at risk. In response, The National Federation - NFHS (I believe), has banned the event and the OHSAA meets are governed through that organization. Priviously, the Hammer could be contested if the meet wanted to hold the event...much like the triple jump, or 5000 or shuttle hurldes are held at some meets, with the proper facility. Now, even it the meet is held a a facilty that like a college, where all proper equipment is in place, high school athletes (ohsaa) are not allowed to compete in the event. Would be in danger of losing eligibilty or the host/meet could face penalty.

Hammer is a regular event in some states. Is this truly coming from those characters at NFHS?

 

[psycho_dad]

I'm not arguing that OHSAA make this a standard event. I'm arguing that they ALLOW schools to do it if they wish to. 4pm for buses? That's nuts. We were out the door by 3:30, if not earlier back in the 80s. Especially for a big invitational.

Buss driver shortages. It is not the 80's anymore.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

I'm not arguing that OHSAA make this a standard event. I'm arguing that they ALLOW schools to do it if they wish to. 4pm for buses? That's nuts. We were out the door by 3:30, if not earlier back in the 80s. Especially for a big invitational.

Either no buses available or no extra drivers available until after the elementary school kids are taken home. I've experienced a few home dual meets where the other teams' arrival time was dependent upon how soon they could get a bus.

 

[CedarBuck92]

Either no buses available or no extra drivers available until after the elementary school kids are taken home. I've experienced a few home dual meets where the other teams' arrival time was dependent upon how soon they could get a bus.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some schools starting to get their coaches (especially longer term ones) certified to drive a bus to help alleviate the shortage in relation to athletics.

 

[JAVMAN83]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some schools starting to get their coaches (especially longer term ones) certified to drive a bus to help alleviate the shortage in relation to athletics.

Wow. Didn't know it was that bad in public schools. Last time I coached public schools was 1990.

 

[CC Track Fan]

Track meet a few years ago for my sons the team only had one bus available so bus first took down field event kids and then came back for runners and the hope was that enough kids went home with parents so all those that were left could fit on one bus. Well so many kids needed a ride home that the bus only had room for one coach and the other coaches got rides back from parents. Kids could not ride home with a non-parent.

 

[Newton's Third]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some schools starting to get their coaches (especially longer term ones) certified to drive a bus to help alleviate the shortage in relation to athletics.

Dugan Hill at Caldwell did that for years. The running joke was he was coach, asst. coach, trainer, bus driver, AD, custodian,.......... He had bus certification and drove to & from meets.

 

[CedarBuck92]

Wow. Didn't know it was that bad in public schools. Last time I coached public schools was 1990.

I think the bigger issue is the timing. A coach could take the kids almost as soon as school is out vs waiting for a bus to run its route(s) then come back for the team.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some schools starting to get their coaches (especially longer term ones) certified to drive a bus to help alleviate the shortage in relation to athletics.

Very early in my coaching days, my school (a smaller private) tried to con me into getting licensed. I didn't go for it. It would've been a nice source of extra money, but it wasn't worth the potential headaches that it would've created for me. However, having a CDL offers you a way to make a decent income when all else fails.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

Dugan Hill at Caldwell did that for years. The running joke was he was coach, asst. coach, trainer, bus driver, AD, custodian,.......... He had bus certification and drove to & from meets.

Former Walsh Jesuit HC Pat Ritchie filled the role of bus driver for his teams as well. Growing up, he likely had plenty of experience driving large vehicles with several kids on board. He was either the oldest or 2nd oldest of 12 children.

 

[Altor]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some schools starting to get their coaches (especially longer term ones) certified to drive a bus to help alleviate the shortage in relation to athletics.

This has been one of the terms of becoming/staying a coach for several schools in my area for probably 20+ years. If you want the extra duty, you will get a CDL with a bus endorsement.