Funding for Failure

ProV1 said:
Did you not read my initial post? We already have advanced placement curriculum for those that wish to take it. We have tuturing options for those that need it. I am not for giving every grade school kid an IQ test at the beginning of the year and segregating them based on those results.
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You could have probably used some TUTORING while in school.
 
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ProV1 said:
Did you not read my initial post? We already have advanced placement curriculum for those that wish to take it. We have tuturing options for those that need it. I am not for giving every grade school kid an IQ test at the beginning of the year and segregating them based on those results.
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Going with kids that are similar in ability for math for 40 minutes a so per day for math is not segregation.
 
ProV1 said:
How is an IQ test going to determine if somebody should be in advanced mathematics? WTF.
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I have been saying ability but way to dodge the point. Spending 40 minutes a day with students of the same math ability is not segregation.
 
winbypin said:
I have been saying ability but way to dodge the point. Spending 40 minutes a day with students of the same math ability is not segregation.
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I never said it was. We were talking about segregating grade school kids based on an IQ test. What you have moved the goalposts to is an entirely different thing.
 
ProV1 said:
I never said it was. We were talking about segregating grade school kids based on an IQ test. What you have moved the goalposts to is an entirely different thing.
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It's not really that different at all. Kids with high IQs would likely have higher ability in those subjects where you group the kids.
 
winbypin said:
It's not really that different at all. Kids with high IQs would likely have higher ability in those subjects where you group the kids.
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Ability and achievement are two different things. A lower IQ kid can absolutely achieve at the same level as a higher IQ kid. Using your wrestling example, the most talented kid does not always win.

I can’t believe you do not understand this. Shocking really.
 
D4fan said:
If you don't know the answer to this question, I know which room you will be in and why you dislike the idea so much.
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My lord. Yappi has some super stupid takes tonite.

Ability and achievement are two different things. A lower IQ kid can absolutely achieve at the same level as a higher IQ kid. Using your wrestling example, the most talented kid does not always win.

I can’t believe you do not understand this. Shocking really.
 
ProV1 said:
Ability and achievement are two different things. A lower IQ kid can absolutely achieve at the same level as a higher IQ kid. Using your wrestling example, the most talented kid does not always win.

I can’t believe you do not understand this. Shocking really.
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Yes. A lower IQ student can achieve the same as a high IQ student. Lots of reasons for that but there should be ways to move students up and down. Going back to what I experienced in my elementary kids were regularly adjusted in both directions.
 
ProV1 said:
My lord. Yappi has some super stupid takes tonite.

Ability and achievement are two different things. A lower IQ kid can absolutely achieve at the same level as a higher IQ kid. Using your wrestling example, the most talented kid does not always win.

I can’t believe you do not understand this. Shocking really.
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Its tonight.
 
Crusaders said:
Oh my god. Please stop. Anyone who actually knows teachers knows they're fed up with the system. They don't get to teach effectively because of stupid rules. They have to fudge grades to make the district look good. They have to pass failing students if it can be reasonably manipulated. They have to focus classes toward testing. There's a reason we're losing teachers in droves. They may get into the profession to teach but they quickly realize its a bureaucratic nightmare.
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winbypin said:
Definitely a brag. You were trying to make your comments more credible by saying you know many teachers.
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Direct response to accusation that I do not know teachers. Even after I had stated I know teachers.
 
winbypin said:
Yes. A lower IQ student can achieve the same as a high IQ student. Lots of reasons for that but there should be ways to move students up and down. Going back to what I experienced in my elementary kids were regularly adjusted in both directions.
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Within narrow limits, yes.
 
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winbypin said:
Yes. A lower IQ student can achieve the same as a high IQ student. Lots of reasons for that but there should be ways to move students up and down. Going back to what I experienced in my elementary kids were regularly adjusted in both directions.
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WTF are you not getting? Nobody says there should not be accommodations for performance in the classroom. We have always had that. When I was in 8th grade, I took honors history with Mr. Haas. Best teacher of my life. I earned my way into that class through performance. I was not placed or denied based on an IQ test that does NOTHING to measure achievement or accomplishment.
 
D4fan said:
Its tonight.
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It’s an accepted alternative you moron.

Tonite" is often used as an informal or colloquial variant of "tonight" but is not considered the standard spelling in formal writing or communication.
 
psycho_dad said:
You are talking state laws that prevent kids from dropping out. That's not a teachers union thing. I think we are closer in position than it comes off in a forum like this. You and I could at least put our heads together and come up with stuff.

There needs to be more of a push to get kids into trade schools/ vocational schools that fit that type of learning. But, that is going to cost money and you will get push back from conservatives.

Here is what six districts have done in NE Ohio. Cuyahoga Falls. Hudson, Revere, Stow, Talmadge, Woodridge.

Exploring Careers. Discovering Futures…Find a Program Just for You. – We provide career-technical education programs, services and resources for about 25,000 students.

sixdistrict.com sixdistrict.com
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I know our local career school is strong and has to turn away kids, I wish there was a way to expand those programs but you never know how many are going to apply. I think the root of it all is individual student motivation. We know there are some kids who are driven beyond belief, we don't need to discuss them. It's the kids who are constant problems at school. Poor attendance and nearly invisible when they do show up. For a kid who's 14-15 years old to have that little concern of their future, what's going on? We know how this is going to turn out, right?
 
ProV1 said:
WTF are you not getting? Nobody says there should not be accommodations for performance in the classroom. We have always had that. When I was in 8th grade, I took honors history with Mr. Haas. Best teacher of my life. I earned my way into that class through performance. I was not placed or denied based on an IQ test that does NOTHING to measure achievement or accomplishment.
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Congrats on 8th grade honors history. I bet you're proud. Do you still have that in your closet along with your west point appointment?
 
winbypin said:
Congrats on 8th grade honors history. I bet you're proud. Do you still have that in your closet along with your west point appointment?
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I don't but since your argument was so bizarre on this subject, I knew you needed a pivot. You also must be tired of regurgitating my spa treatment and my social interactions at the golf course for so many years. Now you can focus on some new material.
 
14Red said:
I know our local career school is strong and has to turn away kids, I wish there was a way to expand those programs but you never know how many are going to apply. I think the root of it all is individual student motivation. We know there are some kids who are driven beyond belief, we don't need to discuss them. It's the kids who are constant problems at school. Poor attendance and nearly invisible when they do show up. For a kid who's 14-15 years old to have that little concern of their future, what's going on? We know how this is going to turn out, right?
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You were a kid. I wasn't thrilled to go to school. I had friends that were complete screw ups and could care less. It's not new. My kids and their friends liked school a lot more than me and my friends did.

It takes money to expand those programs. I say spend it. Kids should not be turned away if it's what they need.
 
ProV1 said:
I don't but since your argument was so bizarre on this subject, I knew you needed a pivot. You also must be tired of regurgitating my spa treatment and my social interactions at the golf course for so many years. Now you can focus on some new material.
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No pivot. And I didn't think I was really making an argument just stating that I would be fine if kids were grouped based on ability in certain subjects so the advanced could be challenged and the ones not as advanced weren't overwhelmed or lost. Even in grade school.

You're the one that volunteered you were in an 8th grade honors history class with Mrs. Haas. Tough to peak early.
 
winbypin said:
No pivot. And I didn't think I was really making an argument just stating that I would be fine if kids were grouped based on ability in certain subjects so the advanced could be challenged and the ones not as advanced weren't overwhelmed or lost. Even in grade school.

You're the one that volunteered you were in an 8th grade honors history class with Mrs. Haas. Tough to peak early.
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Yes. I used it as an example of how we have always accommodated for performance in schools. You certainly put a lot of effort into supporting what the system already does. Of course, you know very well that is not what we were talking about as I pointed out numerous times. The discussion was about using IQ tests to segregate kids by their IQ scores.
 
Does anyone else find it odd that one of the complaints is that teachers are forced to teach to the test, but then test scores are too low, carry the 2....
 
ProV1 said:
Yes. I used it as an example of how we have always accommodated for performance in schools. You certainly put a lot of effort into supporting what the system already does. Of course, you know very well that is not what we were talking about as I pointed out numerous times. The discussion was about using IQ tests to segregate kids by their IQ scores.
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As you know, discussions evolve. So that's where this one went. But if you want to stay in a single lane that's fine.
 
psycho_dad said:
I'm sure there are some that quit, but many more do not and on stay teaching for a long time. The Pandemic was not good for teachers. Big time burn out. Up until then, there wasn't nearly the numbers leaving. It's a stressful job.

The problem is understaffing. Being short staffed requires existing teachers to take on more of the load with no more pay. We need to spend more not less and properly staff schools and error on overstaffing rather than skating by understaffed. Schools aren't factories.

Like you a me when we were in high school? There is much less drop out than there used to be.

I disagree. Educators want to educate. The problem is there is research out there that shows that holding kids back is not effective. It's applied unfairly etc.... There is conflicting results. Some states have laws that require kids be held back, but those haven't seemed to work. A lot of loopholes. It is much more a legislative thing than a teachers union thing. IMO
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Over 80% of teachers report job dissatisfaction, over 50% say they wish to quit earlier than they expected to. If you're not currently seeing people leave, you are likely to very soon.

It's easy to blame the pandemic but that's just a convenient excuse. Most cite a lack of ability to properly teach and no longer feeling protected.
 
Crusaders said:
Over 80% of teachers report job dissatisfaction, over 50% say they wish to quit earlier than they expected to. If you're not currently seeing people leave, you are likely to very soon.

It's easy to blame the pandemic but that's just a convenient excuse.
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Pay them better and get the Republican legislature out of the process. Maybe one side of the political spectrum should stop vilifying and degrading teachers so much. Stop judging them by the lowest students and judge them by the top students that are getting better every year. Understand that educational gaps are over a hundreds years and will take time to level off. Not going to happen in 2 generations.
 
psycho_dad said:
Pay them better and get the Republican legislature out of the process. Maybe one side of the political spectrum should stop vilifying and degrading teachers so much. Stop judging them by the lowest students and judge them by the top students that are getting better every year. Understand that educational gaps are over a hundreds years and will take time to level off. Not going to happen in 2 generations.
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It would probably be better to get government out of the way entirely, Republican and Democrat.

Maybe people like you need to get real and stop making excuses for poor performance. And stop believing manipulated statistics fudged by the system to maintain funding. Our education system is bad despite being the richest in the world. And that's not because of Republicans.
 
Crusaders said:
It would probably be better to get government out of the way entirely, Republican and Democrat.

Maybe people like you need to get real and stop making excuses for poor performance. And stop believing manipulated statistics fudged by the system to maintain funding. Our education system is bad despite being the richest in the world. And that's not because of Republicans.
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Just because you say it's bad does not make it so.

"Polls about education in the US quickly find a paradox: most people like their neighborhood schools, but they think education as a whole in the US is going downhill. Everyone thinks their neighborhood school is the exception, not the rule."

www.vox.com

Why schools in the US are better now than they've ever been

A historian of education argues that despite the widely held notion that American schools are failing, things have actually never been better.
www.vox.com www.vox.com
 
You also need to get better sources. Vox is no better than Breitbart.

And it's not even a paradox. They think upper education is failing, and it is. "Neighborhood school" would be lower education; elementary primarily, maybe middle. Which isn't surprising. Absolute junk journalism.

The US shouldn't be 35th or whatever it is in education. It should be #1 by a country mile. Yet it isn't, and it's because of people like you who do nothing but make excuses for it.
 
winbypin said:
As you know, discussions evolve. So that's where this one went. But if you want to stay in a single lane that's fine.
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Well … if you want to change the subject almost entirely just start there rather than post 20 times only to end up in a place of universal agreement.
 
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