Do Private Schools Have an Unfair Advantage?

soccerfan40

New member
I want to throw this out. It appears by looking at the percentages, that most of the schools in the Final 4 year after year, are schools that have the advantage of gaining quality players from other school districts. My understanding this year is that CHCA had a couple of transfers that came in for their Senior Year. Does anyone believe that there is a decided advantage for the private schools?
 
 
Just looking at this year in DIII all four teams in the Final 4 are private, in DII, the two in the championship are private, and I am not sure about DI. I know that some schools make it to the Final 4 that are public and some have won State Championships, however, I am looking at the percentage of teams that make it and it seems pretty obvious that the private school sector has the greater percentage of teams.
 
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I am most familiar with D1 schools, so I'll give this a shot. From the OHSAA website (could only find stats going back to 1998)...

1998 - D1 Final Four = 0 private (0%), public school champion
1999 - D1 Final Four = 0 private (0%), public school champion
2000 - D1 Final Four = 1 private (25%), public school champion
2001 - D1 Final Four = 0 private (0%), public school champion
2002 - D1 Final Four = 2 privates (50%), public school champion
2003 - D1 Final Four = 1 private (25%), public school champion
2004 - D1 Final Four = 1 private (25%), private school champion
2005 - D1 Final Four = 2 privates (50%), private school champion
2006 - D1 Final Four = 0 private (0%), public school champion
2007 - D1 Final Four = 1 private (25%), public school champion

In the 10 years above, out of 40 possible Final Four teams, 8 of them were private (20%).

In the 10 years above, out of 10 possible champions, 2 of them were private (20%).

FACT: Public school teams RULE in D1.
 
I believe this argument goes both ways and there are facts to defend either point. In DIII, past year's champions prior to this season show no significant advantage to either.
2006 - Worthington Christian (private)
2005 - Greeneview (public)
2004 - CVCA (private)
2003 - Madeira (public)
2002 - Madeira (public)
2001 - SCC (private)
2000 - Hawken (private)

This past season, the four SW district champions from DIII were ... Madeira (public), Mariemont (public), Yellow Springs (public), and SCC (private). The top teams in Cincy were arguably: Madeira (public), CHCA (private), Summit (private), Mariemont (public), Reading (public) and Seven Hills (private). Given a break, any one of those teams could have advanced further than they did ...
 
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Depending on the sport, the advantage to private schools over public varies from nominal to near dominance.

I won't deny the excellent programs of private schools. They have passionate alumni who contribute huge $$$$ to the programs. Also on the financial front, they don't have to admit students who have IEP's, which saves them a ton of money which public schools are required to spend on something besides athletics.

The biggest advantage of private schools is that they are not bound by geographic limits such as public schools. If they see a rising athlete in a surrounding community, they have ability to recruit him/her and sweeten the pot with tuition money.

Archbishop Moeller (Cincinnati) was a football powerhouse in the 70's and 80's when they could recruit all over the Tri-State area. Cincinnati's archdiocese changed their rules and required Moeller students to reside within local parishes. Guess what? No more football powerhouse. St. Xavier, which is a Jesuit school, is not governed by the archdiocese and is now the powerhouse.
 
While I do not necessarily disagree with what's been said here, let's try to stay on topic.

Statistically-speaking, how many publics and how many privates make the Final Four in soccer year-in and year-out? That's the question posed by soccerfan40. I've offerd the D1 break down going back to 1998. Fact is, the publics hold an obvious lead in that division.

How do the other divisions break down??
 
CHCA got only one transfer this year and I wouldn't call it a transfer since he came from Indianapolis. I would call that a relocation to Cincinnati. CHCA has had players transfer into the school in past years without a doubt.

I think your assertion that they have an advantage is hard to say. Can they admit anyone from anywhere in the city into their school? Yes. But are private schools free? No and I don't know of any school that offers full scholarships and tuition is not cheap. Can anyone go to a private school? No, there is also an academic standard that the student has to satisfy in order to be accepted to the school. In the case of CHCA there is also a statement of faith that is required prior to admittance.
 
Elder is a private school and there is not an "entrance exam" to be taken with a minimal academic standard to be met. Instead, it is a "placement test" so that school administration knows what level of courses are best for each student. In other words, if you want to go to Elder and you can afford to go to Elder, then you will go to Elder.

The same cannot be said for all privates (i.e. St. Xavier).
 
Though it is true that we have freshman come in from all over, in the five years that I have been at Summit, we have had only one player (a junior) transfer into our school. Also, there is a cost, academic and character precedent that always comes to play. That, and we compete with the many, many, many private schools in the area.

Also, private school-bound student athletes test prior to enrolling. This test is area-wide for level of education and placement.
 
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As for final fours ... I checked and could only find the OHSAA Web site as a reliable source for tourney info and they only go back to 1999.
 
As for final fours ... I checked and could only find the OHSAA Web site as a reliable source for tourney info and they only go back to 1999.

Correct. I'm not as familiar with the public/private schools in D2/D3. Was hoping someone could take a stab at posting the stats from those divisions (similar to what I did for D1 above).
 
I just checked the DIII Final Fours since 1999. Out of 36 teams to make the Final 4, 13 have been public. I believe that Madeira (4), Kalida (2), New Albany, Van Buren, Fort Jennings, Chilicothe Unioto, Greenview and Wickliffe are public schools. If I am wrong then the totals will be different.

As far as the championship game, out of 18 teams, 14 have been private schools. There has only been three public school champions in 9 years.

For Final 4 64% are private. For the Championship Game 77% is private. The State Champion after this year, 66% private.

It is about 2 out of 3 are from private. As the statistics should be. When you can accept good or great soccer players from many surrounding areas, you should be better than most.

DIII Statistics (DII in 1999) DIII began in 2000

1999: Final 4 (3/4 private) Championship 2/2 Summit Champions

2000: Final 4 (3/4 private) Championship 2/2 Gates Mill Hawken Champions
2001: Final 4 (2/4 private) Championship 2/2 Catholic Central Champions
2002: Final 4 (2/4 private) Championship 1/2 Madeira Champions
2003: Final 4 (2/4 private) Championship 1/2 Madeira Champions
2004: Final 4 (2/4 private) Championship 2/2 CVCA Champions
2005: Final 4 (3/4 private) Championship 1/2 Greenview Champions
2006: Final 4 (2/4 private) Championship 1/2 Worthington Christian Champions
2007: Final 4 (4/4 private Championship 2/2 TBD



I will check on DII and try to get it posted soon.
 
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I believe that in DI it is because of the pure numbers that you get to chose from. I am not sure how many players on average try out for a soccer team at the DI level but I am sure that it is more than what trys out for DIII. That is why there are three divisions now in soccer. You are playing against schools that are the same size. I believe it is only in soccer that the public schools fair so well.

In football it is the GCL and Colerain usually in Southwest Ohio. Colerain has only won one state championship, I believe, in football and they are always good. I know up north St. Ignatius had a great run for many years. In basketball the private schools seem to do pretty well.

This topic is fun just to hear what others think. I have had these thoughts since I was in HS 22 years ago.

I am curious if public schools offered tuition how many players would play for different coaches instead of going to private schools. I know that kids go to private schools for many reasons, just wandering.
 
The schools for consideration should be grouped by income level of parents and community tax base and include high end public schools together with academic-minded private schools (by this I don't mean those religious schools that are just afraid of having their children exposed to the rest of the community). Communities with such money can buy better food, health care, training camps, etc. for their children and, on average, are more involved and engaged in their childrens' lives and activities.

I suspect that looking at say, the final sixteen teams in the D III tournament from this perspective would be informative.
 
I'm not 100% sure but, other than the catholic schools, most private schools with soccer programs are in the DIII range of enrollment (under 210 boys) so I am not surprised by the Final Four statistics. Not a lot of good programs at small public schools because of the limited number of boys. I would guess because most of the boys get recruited onto the football team.
 
My opinion is that there is an advantage for privates, however there is no known way to "correct" it. The best correction which already exists are the OHSAA recruiting restrictions. The general myth is that privates recruit, yet how many complaints or challenges were filed with OHSAA in the past 3-4 years on recruiting violations? A handful, and none were actual violations.

One thing that acts somewhat as a balancing effect is that public schools in effect give "scholarships" to every kid who walks throught door - i.e., free tuition and books. Privates can cost any where from several thousand to over $25,000 per year in Ohio.

I'm not going to go find the posts, but on JJ Huddle's men's soccer forum, about 8-10 months ago, someone did an analysis of all three divisions, back to 1999, and ranked them for the entire tournament outcome. The public schools ranked highest in all three divisions for how far they went into the tournament. What was however not considered was the number of public schools vs private schools (i.e., if private's are 20% of the entire pool, yet rank at the 40% level, is that an issue). The post was not about privates vs. public but about ranking programs over the time period based upon tournament outocme.

Many states have a multiplier so that the student population of schools who can admit students outside the district is multiplied by a number, such as 1.5. This can force a school into a higher division. Most states who have adopted this system apply it only to private schools, however some to both private and public if the public has special programs where students from different districts can attend. The many studies done on this system show the multiplier "solution" does not have an effect in the real world environment (i.e., at the 1.5 to 1.8 level, it does not have a statistical effect in changing the outcome). No state has looked at different multipliers for different sports, but just one for all. Further, apparently no state association has the stomach to go above 1.8 (it leads to the question of how many public students are equal to one private school student, which is a political issue noone wants to deal with).

OHSAA has looked at the multiplier several times, and last Summer briefly adopted it before turning around in several weeks and going back to the old system. Don't know why OHSAA did that, but the rumour is the football coalition killed it.

Some states has a separate tournament system for privates and publics. One even has a separate system but the final is against the winning public and private. I think separate tournaments in Ohio might kill OHSAA (which I beleive is an excellent organization). It would likely lead to a new OHSAA type organization for the private schools, so we would never have a true overall winner in a sport since both systems would likely have different rules.

While the current system may not be the "best," my opinion is that it works and I would not be in favor of changing it.
 
I concur. I don't think that a change would be necessary at this point and probably not at all. I guess I get a little tired of, in most sports, hearing about the private schools winning championships. When a public school wins, it means more to me and I get more excited for the kids because the play with kids they grow up with. I know some of the private school kids also play with kids they grow up with because they have elementary and middle schools.

Some of these private schools are almost like a small college team in some aspects.

One public school that comes to mind is Madeira. They have been to the regional for eight straight years and they have not had any transfers, only kids that have lived in the district. You see kids talking about the soccer program when they are very little and you see the excitement in their eyes. It is kind of cool to watch them grow and play together from an early age.

Each year that Madeira has lost they have lost to a private school that "recruits". In four of the six years they lost to the eventual state champion. I am not saying this because I am bitter because each year we make it that far is awesome and each step further that we take makes it that much sweeter.

This has been a great thread and the comments have been great.
 
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The privates and publics are evenly matched in D1. In 2005, you had an all private D1 championship with X vs Ignatius but in 2006 & 2007, the D1 championship has been all public.

In fact I love the rivalry we have down here in Cincinnati between the D1 publics and privates. When the top programs meet, it's almost always a dog fight and there's often large crowds to watch the game.

I don't know about the smaller schools but in D1 the level of competitiveness is just about perfect between the publics & privates.
 
With a much larger pool of kids to choose from, many private DIII schools have an advantage over their public counterparts. This is diminished substantially or eliminated when compared to DI schools. (There are differences from sport to sport too of course.) A small public school has to be fairly lucky to get a large pool of good athletes that are committed or driven to perform at state championship levels but a private school can have a broader pool to choose from. This shows up in academic performance as well. High end, self-selecting populations looking for high performance and with the money to get it tend to be more successful.
 
The reason that private schools aren't as much of a powerhouse is because if you look at all the pop. of private schools most of them average around 800-1000 kids so you don't have too many D1 private schools. Another reason private schools are mentioned is because people think that they recruit the whole school. I can tell you that the schools I've heard of only had about 15 recruits which isn't a lot.
 
grandslam -

You may not realize what you said, but any recruting by any high school, whether public or private is banned by the OHSAA bylaws. Recruiting is defined in the bylaws, but a school absolutley cannot offer money, playing time, or the like to induce an athelete to enroil.

So if you know of a school that recruited 15 players, I suggest you file a complaint with OHSAA.
 
My two-cents:
Can you really say private schools have an advantage? In the West side of Cincinnati alone take a look at enrollment of schools. St. X some 1600 or so from what I heard. Elder is at about 900 this year. LaSalle is real low but I hear of a range from 600-800 (big range I know but bear with me). That is a total of a maximum of about 3300 and a minimum of about 3100ish. Oak Hills alone is 3000+. Yeah St. X has kids from the East side and West side and Oak Hills is limited to their school districts but out of over 3000 kids you gotta be able to pull together at least one decent sports team cant you? I just think it is the kids. There are an absurd amount of kids at Oak Hills who don't play any sports. I think that is what hurts them, not a matter of advantage of what the boundaries are each school enrollment are.
 
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