District Results-Centerville girls

[ccrunner609]

Having the varsity do a tempo run would not fit the objective of getting the other(JV) runners into the race.
But I would be content to get 5 JV into the race and put a couple # 3 to 6 along with them for insurance

Here is the disconnect.......do most teams have kids that deserve to run but arent fast enough....sure they do. 99% of CC kids are wonderful and everyone is rooting for all of them but the adults in the room have to make the right decisions here. Getting kids "involved" is part of the regular season and done off the course at team functions. Post season is not the time to "get involved".

 

[Mr. Slippery]

Just saw on the Centerville website their next board meeting is this coming Monday. Who knows what will happen? Maybe nothing but I have a feeling there will be parents there and they are probably going to address it.

They may want to take their sweet old time getting to "New Business."

 

[jjberry]

There is something about this 2016 blog post (below) by Coach Dobson (re: district victory with JV) that just doesn't sit right with me. The capitalization and emphasis of "ROLE" is odd. Also, is he implying that it was the JV runners idea to run at districts, not his. Was this post directed towards parents who were questioning his tactics?


"At this past Saturday’s District Championships, the Elks took 5th place in the Dayton District Div. I Girls Race. The team was led by Junior – Laura Drew and Freshman – Sophie Hippenmeyer. The team qualified to Regionals to be held at Troy, OH on Saturday, October 31st at 12:30 PM.

The special THANK YOU and CONGRATULATIONS to these ladies who took it upon themselves to understand their ROLE on the team at this point in the season. With a strong three weeks of competition upcoming for the Top 7 runners, these ladies made it possible for them to enjoy the weekend away from competing and keep their training on schedule as the postseason continues. Great job ladies!"

 

[yj_runfan]

Just saw on the Centerville website their next board meeting is this coming Monday. Who knows what will happen? Maybe nothing but I have a feeling there will be parents there and they are probably going to address it.

I don't believe the board will get involved with a coaching mistake. If they started that precedent, where would it end?

 

[EuclidandViren]

That article is terrible. Instead of apologizing he talks about their "strategy" and EGO. First class programs do NOT DO THIS. Any other "best coach in Ohio" would have never put them in this spot in the first place.

It's totally obvious that they have major problem with their view on athletics. There was no research about this decision if it would work this year. Even the men's coach commented that it "was tradition" to do this.

This is the total opposite response I thought I would get from a class A coach.

Agree 100%. The article seems contrived. Almost seems that the AD is trying to cover his/her butt by calling the DDN to be proactive.
And they are trying to run a story that they want to hear. A story that they want to tell.

No apologies from the AD or coach. No apologies to the girls or the community.
All about the strategies of the coach. I will tell you right now that there was no strategy.
The article- coach and AD failed the students and athletes. Why does it talk about the coach's job security? Why was that even brought up in the interview from DDN? Very contrived. Almost preemptive to try and save the coach and AD's job and reputation.

Why does the article- AD and coach not discuss the long term impact on the students. It's not about you AD and coach. It's about the kids.

The article does let us know that the AD obviously knows nothing about football. Does he/she know what a 2 point conversion is?
You cannot compare this to a two-point conversion. I hope Centerville has a good football team.

An in-game decision making would not be debated over on yappi, letsrun, milesplit or national news?

This would be in the same context of:
Not dressing your starters in the first round of the football playoffs. And not just one starter. Let's rest the entire offense, defense and special teams. 30+ football players. Let's show the public we are trying to lose on purpose.

And for 4 years we squeak by your opponent in the first round. You barely win those first-round games but it was worth it because the starters are rested for the second round. And then after 4 years, you do it, even when all the data says you will lose and you still don't dress your starters. And then you lose. And you lose possible All-State football players. You lose possible college scholarships for football players.
That is more like what this was.

 

[EuclidandViren]

I don't believe the board will get involved with a coaching mistake. If they started that precedent, where would it end?

This is not a coaching mistake. This was not an accident. This was on purpose.

 

[yj_runfan]

This is not a coaching mistake. This was not an accident. This was on purpose.

Still a coaching decision. There's no role for the BOE to take in this incident. If they do, they deserve all the trouble they will bring on themselves.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

Agree 100%. The article seems contrived. Almost seems that the AD is trying to cover his/her butt by calling the DDN to be proactive.
And they are trying to run a story that they want to hear. A story that they want to tell.

No apologies from the AD or coach. No apologies to the girls or the community.
All about the strategies of the coach. I will tell you right now that there was no strategy.
The article- coach and AD failed the students and athletes. Why does it talk about the coach's job security? Why was that even brought up in the interview from DDN? Very contrived. Almost preemptive to try and save the coach and AD's job and reputation.

Why does the article- AD and coach not discuss the long term impact on the students. It's not about you AD and coach. It's about the kids.

The article does let us know that the AD obviously knows nothing about football. Does he/she know what a 2 point conversion is?
You cannot compare this to a two-point conversion. I hope Centerville has a good football team.

An in-game decision making would not be debated over on yappi, letsrun, milesplit or national news?

This would be in the same context of:
Not dressing your starters in the first round of the football playoffs. And not just one starter. Let's rest the entire offense, defense and special teams. 30+ football players. Let's show the public we are trying to lose on purpose.

And for 4 years we squeak by your opponent in the first round. You barely win those first-round games but it was worth it because the starters are rested for the second round. And then after 4 years, you do it, even when all the data says you will lose and you still don't dress your starters. And then you lose. And you lose possible All-State football players. You lose possible college scholarships for football players.
That is more like what this was.

If that's the case, then good on the AD. You get out in front of the situation and control the narrative before someone on the other side does. That's Damage Control 101. I'm not saying I agree with the AD's side, but he's making the right first move here if he's in support of the coach.

As far as the DDN is concerned, whatever they write regarding this situation is going to sell papers right now, so they're good with it.

Incidentally, I don't think most ADs have the power to unilaterally hire and fire coaches in case anyone was wondering about that. They sit in on interviews and voice opinions, but it's generally the principals and superintendents who recommend candidates to the school board for hiring.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

This is not a coaching mistake. This was not an accident. This was on purpose.

No, it's a blunder and a terrible coaching mistake. "On purpose" would be if the coach employed this strategy to ensure that his team did not advance.

 

[The_Rocco]

No, it's a blunder and a terrible coaching mistake. "On purpose" would be if the coach employed this strategy to ensure that his team did not advance.

Over the past five years he has purposely gambled the future of their season, risking a very negative consequenceto the kids he coaches.

The board will have to get involved if parents express their concerns at the meeting. They could just listen but the can definitely take action to fire him. They also addressed his job a year and a half ago at a public board meeting without anything like this. I don’t see them sitting down on it. He barely hung on by the skin of his teeth in that situation.

 

[Newton's Third]

In most districts coaches have one year contracts renewed each year. They basically have to be rehired each year. If this incident and others from the past are enough for them to remove the coach it is doubtful anything would transpire in a board meeting. He would just not be renewed next summer.

 

[psycho_dad]

Yeah, even though you know it's going to happen, getting that letter terminating your contract at the end of the season sort of stings.

 

[mathking]

One idea I can't shake when thinking about this is why they choose to do this every year? Our recently retired head coach more than a few times stressed the need to always look as objectively as possible at your decision making. It is really, really easy to make the assumption that success in one competition or season was because of your decisions and not in spite of your decisions. So that "Hey, we rested the top kids at the district meet and then we won the state meet. So resting the top kids must have been beneficial." becomes something you believe is true. It is the same with "When I was in HS we did X and we had success, so X must be the right thing to do." I feel as though I am fortunate because in our program the boys and girls teams and coaching staffs work closely together. More than a few times I have been able to get good advice, from someone watching closely but not invested in the actual decisions.

 

[Newton's Third]

Yeah, even though you know it's going to happen, getting that letter terminating your contract at the end of the season sort of stings.

I am old enough that the year to year thing only started later in my career. I was used to everything being rolled over to the next year. When the termination and rehire thing started, even though I knew it was common and coming, I did not like it at all.

 

[EuclidandViren]

No, it's a blunder and a terrible coaching mistake. "On purpose" would be if the coach employed this strategy to ensure that his team did not advance.

That is exactly what the facts state. This was on purpose.

 

[The_Rocco]

That is exactly what the facts state. This was on purpose.

Could you specify the facts? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you but many are interpreting many ways. Your interpretation is very extreme and like to know why. It’s a very strong accusation to say that he didn’t want his team to advance.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

That is exactly what the facts state. This was on purpose.

Just to clarify, it is your assertion that this coach did not want his team to advance to the regional meet?

 

[ccrunner609]

Now this thread is getting out of hand and needs wrangled back in. He cant be "fired". Supplemental contracts are year to year and he will simply be nonrenewed if that is what they want. The school board cant to anything directly to him but through the AD.

As for purposely actions is just pot stirring.

Whatever happens in this situation is unfortunate for those young girls and their families. It is surely upsetting for Coach Dobson. He is a wonderful guy that doesnt deserve any of this either.

 

[The_Rocco]

Now this thread is getting out of hand and needs wrangled back in. He cant be "fired". Supplemental contracts are year to year and he will simply be nonrenewed if that is what they want. The school board cant to anything directly to him but through the AD.

As for purposely actions is just pot stirring.

Whatever happens in this situation is unfortunate for those young girls and their families. It is surely upsetting for Coach Dobson. He is a wonderful guy that doesnt deserve any of this either.

I’m sorry. He does. What he did was wrong and he was ignorant of the other teams he was competing against that led to the KIDS suffering. He should be suffering because of that. Not once was he or the ad apologetic in that interview in the newspaper. It was about him and why he was a good coach.

 

[sofa]

There is something about this 2016 blog post (below) by Coach Dobson (re: district victory with JV) that just doesn't sit right with me. The capitalization and emphasis of "ROLE" is odd. Also, is he implying that it was the JV runners idea to run at districts, not his. Was this post directed towards parents who were questioning his tactics?


"At this past Saturday’s District Championships, the Elks took 5th place in the Dayton District Div. I Girls Race. The team was led by Junior – Laura Drew and Freshman – Sophie Hippenmeyer. The team qualified to Regionals to be held at Troy, OH on Saturday, October 31st at 12:30 PM.

The special THANK YOU and CONGRATULATIONS to these ladies who took it upon themselves to understand their ROLE on the team at this point in the season. With a strong three weeks of competition upcoming for the Top 7 runners, these ladies made it possible for them to enjoy the weekend away from competing and keep their training on schedule as the postseason continues. Great job ladies!"

Just to provide you with more info - My daughter was on Centerville's team in 2016 and ROLE was capitalized because that was the team's theme for the season (ROLE/ROLL ON). The intent of the theme (as explained by my daughter) was that every athlete on the team had an important role towards the success of the team, from the fastest to the slowest runner.

 

[ralphus33]

After reading the article and thinking about this more, I think he deserves all of this and more. I don’t think he should be re-hired next year. If the school board wanted to, I would think they could terminate or suspend his contract effective immediately and have an assistant coach take over. Normally I wouldn’t expect the BOE to get involved in a coaching matter like this, but this decision was the epitome of stupidity. It is also cross country where there is little subjectivity. The places and times do not lie, so it is crystal clear how egregious an error this was.

Since the coach claims to have researched the matter and the AD made the cockamamie comparison to a 2-point conversion, I’ll make another comparison. A father and child work hard all summer mowing lawns to earn money to help pay for the child’s college education. As autumn arrives, the father does extensive research and decides to use all their money to bet on a football game. Things don’t go as planned, as the perfect storm occurs, and the father loses the bet. They worked so hard, sweat, and even bled a little working all summer. Now it’s autumn and there are no more yards to mow and the child has nothing to show for all the work because the father took all their money and gambled it away.

 

[Newton's Third]

Just to provide you with more info - My daughter was on Centerville's team in 2016

Can you provide any insight? How was holding out varsity from the district received by athletes and parents in the past? How will this situation be viewed by the community? Can you put some perspective on all of this?

 

[yj_runfan]

Now this thread is getting out of hand and needs wrangled back in. He cant be "fired". Supplemental contracts are year to year and he will simply be nonrenewed if that is what they want. The school board cant to anything directly to him but through the AD.

As for purposely actions is just pot stirring.

Whatever happens in this situation is unfortunate for those young girls and their families. It is surely upsetting for Coach Dobson. He is a wonderful guy that doesnt deserve any of this either.

I was with you right up to the part where you said he doesn’t deserve any of this. What? He brought all of this criticism on himself. He 100% deserves it.

 

[The_Rocco]

I usually don't get caught up in issues outside my coaching bubble but I realized that this whole situation is picking at my core values (ranked from greatest to least):
1. The gambling with the athletes futures. This whole situation was unnecessary and avoidable and the stakes impacted the athletes the most.
2. Why not apologize to everyone that he made a mistake. Is it too hard to say I'm sorry? If your team buys into your principles, they should forgive.
3. The people defending him. He has gambled every year since doing this with the kids being the main collateral.
4. It's poor sportsmanship. If he can't perceive how other teams view this he has no understanding of human perception.
5. Watering down the importance of post-season races. No needed explanation.

Ugh. I need to stop.

 

[sofa]

Can you provide any insight? How was holding out varsity from the district received by athletes and parents in the past? How will this situation be viewed by the community? Can you put some perspective on all of this?

I can only provide my thoughts based on my daughter's experience and what I saw. I would not want to speak for anyone else.

That being said, at least once during her time at Centerville (vague to not reveal identity!) my daughter did, in fact, run in the District race as part of the "rest the top 7" strategy (my words). While she and her fellow runners were excited at the opportunity to run at Districts, they were also terrified that they wouldn't qualify the top 7 to move on to Regionals. When this worry was brought up to the coach, he assured them they would be fine. On race day, while the top 7 cheered for and supported their teammates who were running, it was clear they were very anxious that their season was in someone else's hands (and rightly so). I got the impression the top 7's parents weren't thrilled about it either. And, I can tell you as a "next 7" parent I was stressed as well. The strategy worked, but, if it hadn't, my daughter would have felt very guilty. Let me be clear: What happened this year was NOT in any way the fault of those athletes who ran and they shouldn't feel bad (though I'm guessing they do). Unfortunately, those affected by this decision the most (the top 14) had no say in the matter.

So, from my perspective, none of the athletes or parents, top 7 or otherwise, liked this strategy. Everyone thought it was too risky. I don't believe anyone would have been able to change the coach's mind, however.

 

[mathking]

I can only provide my thoughts based on my daughter's experience and what I saw. I would not want to speak for anyone else.

That being said, at least once during her time at Centerville (vague to not reveal identity!) my daughter did, in fact, run in the District race as part of the "rest the top 7" strategy (my words). While she and her fellow runners were excited at the opportunity to run at Districts, they were also terrified that they wouldn't qualify the top 7 to move on to Regionals. When this worry was brought up to the coach, he assured them they would be fine. On race day, while the top 7 cheered for and supported their teammates who were running, it was clear they were very anxious that their season was in someone else's hands (and rightly so). I got the impression the top 7's parents weren't thrilled about it either. And, I can tell you as a "next 7" parent I was stressed as well. The strategy worked, but, if it hadn't, my daughter would have felt very guilty. Let me be clear: What happened this year was NOT in any way the fault of those athletes who ran and they shouldn't feel bad (though I'm guessing they do). Unfortunately, those affected by this decision the most (the top 14) had no say in the matter.

So, from my perspective, none of the athletes or parents, top 7 or otherwise, liked this strategy. Everyone thought it was too risky. I don't believe anyone would have been able to change the coach's mind, however.

Thanks very much for being willing to share.

 

[Rohbino]

Just to clarify, it is your assertion that this coach did not want his team to advance to the regional meet?

It's hard to believe that Coach Dobson did this because he did not want the team to advance to the regional meet. If, indeed, this were true, then he definitely should not be renewed.

In the end I believe that Coach Dobson had an ill-conceived and misguided plan that backfired on him and, unfortunately, his athletes. There are no winners in this. Even competing teams are being slighted somewhat. Beavercreek is going to miss out on the satisfaction of beating the Elks again. Mason and Lakota East had a more than better chance finishing ahead of Centerville at Troy. At state, assuming that all of those teams advance to state and there is no reason to believe that they shouldn't, they'll miss out on the opportunity of possibly beating them again. The Davidson girls are also going to miss the opportunity of lining up against the Elks. Centerville being out of the running weakens the D1 girls' competition and makes it a little less interesting and suspenseful. That said, all of those teams and others should not in any way feel that their placement at regional or state is "cheapened" by the absence of Centerville and that is not what I am implying. I just wanted to state the fact that the competition is better with Centerville than it is without them. Most would agree on that.

Dobson has had a lot of success over the years and it is hard to argue with that success. Should he be non-renewed over this? That really isn't for all of us here to decide. Most of us are not privy to all of the inter-workings of the program. Even those here that have or had kids in the program don't have all of the information that is available to make an assessment on the quality of the job that Coach Dobson is doing with the program. There are a lot of factors that need to be weighed. I always hate to see someone lose their job but it may very well be determined that it is deserved. Politics with parents or any other petty politics should not enter into the decision making process. If Coach Dobson is renewed at Centerville the best that can come from this is that he learn from his horrible lapse in judgment.

A factor I keep thinking about in all of this is what other coaches at other schools do or have done in the past. At Mason, Coach Dobson (no relation) has had girls teams in which he more than likely would have been able to rest the top 7 or the majority of the top 7 and still advanced to regional. On the boys side Coach Rapp has probably had those teams also. St X has more than likely had squads in which that could also be done. I'm sure that there are other programs elsewhere in which is can be done. Mason may have had a runner or two sit out of district in order to rest an injury. But the entire top 7? No way. Those top 7 have earned the right to run in the post-season by being the best during the regular season and they should not be denied that right.

FYI - This saga made the infamous LetsRun message boards. I'm sure most of you already know those boards and the dregs of the running scene that post there. Venture there at risk of being offended.

I made the mistake of venturing over to the Letsrun forum last night. I had forgotten all about that website. The forums are really bad and are basically a waste. I guess that is what happens when people can post anonymously. People will post anything and everything. The Track & Field News forums are much better but this saga has not yet appeared there (though the story about the runner dq'd for wearing the jihab did make the T&FN forums) I read through the Centerville thread and I get the idea that a few of the people posting there are also posting here.

 

[SOTT]

Message boards are somewhat like the adult version of social media. There seems to be a weird psychological phenomenon that manifests due to the pseudo-anonymity we feel we have. I know I have been guilty, plenty of times, of making baseless assertions, assassinating the character of someone I didn't know, and assuming much more than I should have about myriad situations. I get that this is a message board built specifically for discussion about the sport we all love, but I think there is a line we should be careful to try not to cross.

Coach Dobson made an error in judgement, and it was a big one. I don't think anyone would argue that. My heart absolutely breaks for those girls who won't have the opportunity to compete this coming weekend. I can certainly understand the anger, frustration, and disbelief that is rife in this thread. I can especially understand it if it is coming from people very close to the situation at hand - of which I am guessing there are at least a few given that there are some new members chiming in here. For those of you who are largely removed from the situation, however, and are attacking his character, I think it would be wise not to assume you can judge the entirety of his person-hood on one big mistake.

For me, this whole situation has been a needed reminder that this is high school sports and all too often I get far too wrapped up in the pursuit of success as defined by a result. High school sports is a great platform for helping kids become the best version of themselves. It teaches them about loss, failure, and the growth that comes from such. Hopefully all of us, both close to this particular situation and on the outside looking in, can learn something that helps us better guide our own kids, athletes, coaches, etc.

 

[Crtomir]

I think what Coach Dobson did was risky, but with the potential of a large payoff. As with any risk, it can backfire. This time it did and I am sure Coach Dobson will be rethinking his approach next time around.

Coach Dobson is a great coach and an entirely positive influence on the Centerville girls running under his tutelage. He is a great track record and is well respected by the girls running for him, their parents, and other coaches. He made a miscalculation and I am sure he feels utterly terrible about it. He, more than anyone, wanted these girls to have the best chances of success at State while at the same time helping the rest of the team feel included by letting them participate at the District meet and potentially contribute to the success of the top 7.

I would like to point out that it is common for the best NCAA cross country coaches to rest their top runners at the lower level meets in order to get top performances at Nationals. Coach McDonnell at Arkansas used to do this all the time. Centerville has been, and will hopefully continue to be one of the top girls cross country programs in Ohio. With the top runners moving on to NCAA Div I schools, it is perhaps no surprise that Coach Dobson would adopt an approach taken by some of the best NCAA teams in the country.

However, other high school teams race their top runners at Districts and still do well at State. What works one year does not always work every year.

Everyone seems so quick to demand that Dobson leave based on one mistake when he has a long history of only good stuff at Centerville. That seems too harsh to me. Coaches make mistakes. If a coach continues to make mistakes and runs the program into the ground, they may need to be dismissed. However, no one called it a mistake when they succeeded in winning 4 State championships.

 

[The_Rocco]

However, no one called it a mistake when they succeeded in winning 4 State championships.

The majority of other teams perceived this over the past 5 years as showing off, irrational, and unsportsmanlike with many other better options. It’s been a terrible idea from day one. Gambling with kids futures no matter how big or small should be avoided when they can...and this was easily avoidable. I’m more concerned how he cannot perceive that as a coach.