D 1 106 Final

Jim Behrens said:
Well, believe it or not, debating a call that I did not make and that I can not change seems like a waste of my time.
Not a single one of you that is debating this three days later has ever been in the position of this official and likely never will be.
Whether you like it or not, and I am guessing many of you will not like it, you have the ability to watch a replay multiple times, freeze frame whenever you like and then decide that the officials erred. The official on the mat does not have that luxury. He gets one bite of the apple and has to make a snap judgement on what he just saw. I think most of you would agree that this entire action took well less than one second.
Can he get it wrong? Certainly but I am very sure that he felt it was correct at that moment. Maybe later he might feel differently but maybe he is still good with his call. I don't know and I don't care because nothing is going to change.
Then you get into endless debating over the definition of the words "hurdle", "vault", and other nonsense like did he go over the top or off to the side? The official certainly did not have time to think about any of this. Pretty easy from behind a laptop.
Now of course this will lead to more "he is just sticking up for another official". The truth is that I have a view, like all of you, from a fixed position. It is NOT the view the official had and that is the one he has to use.
I will tell you that even when I am observing an official, I almost never judge the actual call. Instead I ask them, what was your thinking when you made the call? When you think about it, and if you are honest, we learn far more from mistakes than we ever do from being "right" all the time.
With that, carry on.
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I was just wondering if the move is illegal or not. We have a kid on our team that does this same move I told him a year age it was illegal. Just wondering if it is or not. If I had time to ref instead of coach I would but I have kids that need me
 
Adamg said:
I was just wondering if the move is illegal or not. We have a kid on our team that does this same move I told him a year age it was illegal. Just wondering if it is or not. If I had time to ref instead of coach I would but I have kids that need me
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The argument that you have to take the time to be an official and take the classes in order to question or complain is ignorant.
 
Jim Behrens said:
Well, believe it or not, debating a call that I did not make and that I can not change seems like a waste of my time.
Not a single one of you that is debating this three days later has ever been in the position of this official and likely never will be.
Whether you like it or not, and I am guessing many of you will not like it, you have the ability to watch a replay multiple times, freeze frame whenever you like and then decide that the officials erred. The official on the mat does not have that luxury. He gets one bite of the apple and has to make a snap judgement on what he just saw. I think most of you would agree that this entire action took well less than one second.
Can he get it wrong? Certainly but I am very sure that he felt it was correct at that moment. Maybe later he might feel differently but maybe he is still good with his call. I don't know and I don't care because nothing is going to change.
Then you get into endless debating over the definition of the words "hurdle", "vault", and other nonsense like did he go over the top or off to the side? The official certainly did not have time to think about any of this. Pretty easy from behind a laptop.
Now of course this will lead to more "he is just sticking up for another official". The truth is that I have a view, like all of you, from a fixed position. It is NOT the view the official had and that is the one he has to use.
I will tell you that even when I am observing an official, I almost never judge the actual call. Instead I ask them, what was your thinking when you made the call? When you think about it, and if you are honest, we learn far more from mistakes than we ever do from being "right" all the time.
With that, carry on.
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Nobody is arguing with you that it is hard to be an official. Someone asked you a question. You insert yourself on these forums and then use the "well I dont make judgments on calls I didn't officiate" excuse when put on the spot. The question was simple... was the move legal or illegal. You saw the video Im sure, and if you haven't, its in this same thread. The fact that you can not even give an answer to someones question speaks volumes.

You dont have to care about it and you're right nothing is going to change, but a kid lost an opportunity to be a state champion due to a move that is pretty clearly defined as illegal in the rulebook. There were two officials on the mat and neither got it right. There were also two officials on the mat in D1 150 quarterfinal which let a wrestler choose NEUTRAL in the TBs. Again... neither got it right. How does this happen?
 
TakedownFor2 said:
Nobody is arguing with you that it is hard to be an official. Someone asked you a question. You insert yourself on these forums and then use the "well I dont make judgments on calls I didn't officiate" excuse when put on the spot. The question was simple... was the move legal or illegal. You saw the video Im sure, and if you haven't, its in this same thread. The fact that you can not even give an answer to someones question speaks volumes.

You dont have to care about it and you're right nothing is going to change, but a kid lost an opportunity to be a state champion due to a move that is pretty clearly defined as illegal in the rulebook. There were two officials on the mat and neither got it right. There were also two officials on the mat in D1 150 quarterfinal which let a wrestler choose NEUTRAL in the TBs. Again... neither got it right. How does this happen?
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watch the mat return against ayoub that caused him to blow his knee out in the quarterfinals and explain how that is legal. He had to finish the tournament on a blown out knee.
 
wrestlfan said:
watch the mat return against ayoub that caused him to blow his knee out in the quarterfinals and explain how that is legal. He had to finish the tournament on a blown out knee.
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Should have been stopped immediately. I don't think it was intentional, but if you were trying to blow someone's knee out, that's how one might do it. Left knee pressing behind opponents right knee like a back trip, hands locked around chest, right knee /thigh behind opponents left knee, bounced on his knee 4 or 5 times with all his weight, pulled him straight back to the mat, trip over thigh, body goes one way, knee goes the other. You can see Ayoub look at the Ref split second before it happened , like " aren't you going to stop this?"
 

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Jim Behrens said:
Well, believe it or not, debating a call that I did not make and that I can not change seems like a waste of my time.
Not a single one of you that is debating this three days later has ever been in the position of this official and likely never will be.
Whether you like it or not, and I am guessing many of you will not like it, you have the ability to watch a replay multiple times, freeze frame whenever you like and then decide that the officials erred. The official on the mat does not have that luxury. He gets one bite of the apple and has to make a snap judgement on what he just saw. I think most of you would agree that this entire action took well less than one second.
Can he get it wrong? Certainly but I am very sure that he felt it was correct at that moment. Maybe later he might feel differently but maybe he is still good with his call. I don't know and I don't care because nothing is going to change.
Then you get into endless debating over the definition of the words "hurdle", "vault", and other nonsense like did he go over the top or off to the side? The official certainly did not have time to think about any of this. Pretty easy from behind a laptop.
Now of course this will lead to more "he is just sticking up for another official". The truth is that I have a view, like all of you, from a fixed position. It is NOT the view the official had and that is the one he has to use.
I will tell you that even when I am observing an official, I almost never judge the actual call. Instead I ask them, what was your thinking when you made the call? When you think about it, and if you are honest, we learn far more from mistakes than we ever do from being "right" all the time.
With that, carry on.
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yes you learn way more from mistakes/loses than anything in life. Also, one call didn’t decide that match. The questionable call just came at the end. Maybe just answer the question everyone seems to be asking. Can you leave your feet and hurdle an opponent or not in that scenario. A Simple yes you can or no you can’t would suffice. I know jimmy superfly snuka was an expert at it but that was wwe.. You stick up for refs like msnbc covers up for Joe which makes your responses look like you are only sticking up for the refs. I made 3 mistakes before I got out of bed today. Hopefully I learned from them and won’t do it again. I do not think anyone is trying to throw a ref under a bus (yes some probably are). Anyway, I think most everyone wants to know is it legal or not in that scenario. If legal I am guessing coaches will be teaching it and the counter to it (basically a tackle/body slam of an airborne opponent) Thanks for your time
 
Old&Grumpy142 said:
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Should have been stopped immediately. I don't think it was intentional, but if you were trying to blow someone's knee out, that's how one might do it. Left knee pressing behind opponents right knee like a back trip, hands locked around chest, right knee /thigh behind opponents left knee, bounced on his knee 4 or 5 times with all his weight, pulled him straight back to the mat, trip over thigh, body goes one way, knee goes the other. You can see Ayoub look at the Ref split second before it happened , like " aren't you going to stop this?"
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And Omar finished the tournament with a blown out knee. Prey the surgery goes well for him.
 
ShootNation said:
It does not matter what direction the legs go, they are irrelevant to the rule. What does is the term "hurdle" which I think those who have not sat in in the rules interpretation meetings are misconstruing to mean the same thing it does in football or track and field. In the NFHS rules the term "hurdle" means to jump over regardless of methodology or posture while doing it. The second Bickerton leaves his feet and makes contact with his opponent who is not grounded the move is deemed illegal and the match should be stopped.
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I will go with that then. Thanks for your clarification on the matter.
 
TopBottomNeutralDefer said:

Just want to point out this was not called illegal... Courtesy of GoOhio Cast
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Right, similar to the Myers match last year that I mentioned earlier in the thread the rule for hurdling your opponent (7-1-5w) only applies when your opponent is in a standing position. Once they are on the mat (on a knee, hand posted, etc) they are allowed to be hurdled over in order to score points
 
edsfootball10 said:
Regardless , and not to take anything away from a state champ but being a 2x hold back and being a 16 yr freshmen is absolutely Ridc too me.
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Should probably not cast stones if you live in a glass house. StEDS has had its fair share of holdbacks throughout the years to which have won state titles. 1x 2x, holdback is a holdback. But I guess if its a public school kid, then its held against them? Im confused by this double standard and dont understand the appropriate time to call out holdbacks. I highly doubt you are emailing the Eds coaches stating your kid should start because timmy is a holdback and your kid is not.. College Coaches do not care if you are a Holdback. Actually id argue they would prefer you be held back instead of 17 as a college freshman because in this instance your parents will still have to sign off on Athletic department agreements, Alcohol tobacco agreements between the university and students etc. I had a college teammate who was 17. I saw this first hand. Let me guess do you disagree with Redshirting? its in theory the same thing just at different stages of wrestlers career. The whole premise of a Redshirt is to be prepared for the next year of competition and to grow and mature more into your body. Get off your Pedistool.
 
TopBottomNeutralDefer said:
Should probably not cast stones if you live in a glass house. StEDS has had its fair share of holdbacks throughout the years to which have won state titles. 1x 2x, holdback is a holdback. But I guess if it’s a public school kid, then it’s held against them? Im confused by this double standard and dont understand the appropriate time to call out holdbacks. I highly doubt you are emailing the Eds coaches stating your kid should start because timmy is a holdback and your kid is not.. College Coaches do not care if you are a Holdback. Actually id argue they would prefer you be held back instead of 17 as a college freshman because in this instance your parents will still have to sign off on Athletic department agreements, Alcohol tobacco agreements between the university and students etc. I had a college teammate who was 17. I saw this first hand. Let me guess do you disagree with Redshirting? its in theory the same thing just at different stages of wrestlers career. The whole premise of a Redshirt is to be prepared for the next year of competition and to grow and mature more into your body. Get off your Pedistool.
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Don’t agree with any holdbacks regardless of where they go. Could care less if they went to my former hs or not. If your good your good end of story 🤷🏻‍♂️, seen more kids who put all there eggs in one basket and got to college and did absolutely nothing because of head case parents who live vicariously through their kids.

I absolutely love wrestling there is no sport like it it builds more character/ confidence/ discipline then anything.
 
edsfootball10 said:
Don’t agree with any holdbacks regardless of where they go. Could care less if they went to my former hs or not. If your good your good end of story 🤷🏻‍♂️, seen more kids who put all there eggs in one basket and got to college and did absolutely nothing because of head case parents who live vicariously through their kids.

I absolutely love wrestling there is no sport like it it builds more character/ confidence/ discipline then anything.
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I agree with this sentiment 100% as to what wrestling can build for the individual.

I think those kids when they get to college get a taste of life without Mom and Dad in their ear about everything and realize there is more to life than wrestling, and wrestling isn't notoriously known for paying your bills, social life they never had before. The entire exposure is different and wrestling isn't the center of focus anymore. Priorities change. But again back to your point about discipline. That's where the cream rises to the top.
 
edsfootball10 said:
Don’t agree with any holdbacks regardless of where they go. Could care less if they went to my former hs or not. If your good your good end of story 🤷🏻‍♂️, seen more kids who put all there eggs in one basket and got to college and did absolutely nothing because of head case parents who live vicariously through their kids.

I absolutely love wrestling there is no sport like it it builds more character/ confidence/ discipline then anything.
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I get your point of view but there is some flawed logic or rational in that point of view. Long before the term "holdback" was used in a negative way , or used at all there were opponents of mine and classmates that were 10-12 months older, a few occasionally 13-14 months older. They didn't flunk a grade, it's when their parents started them in Kindergarten. As long as that is "legal" which btw there is no way of stopping when parents follow certain guidelines on when they can start a child in kindergarten, "advantages" existed and will exist. Then you have to logically ask the question...does an opponent have an "advantage" at 5 months older? 6 months? 7? There are "holdbacks" often that have Birthdays which fall differently than others who are "older". Anyone who starts school later than myself, graduated at 17 realistically is a "holdback" . The notion that it's different to "holdback" someone in 8th grade let's say who didn't start school as early as other "holdbacks" is any different is quite frankly illogical and stupid.

You also have to consider some kids may start puberty earlier than others, do you declare them a cheat? Ineligible? I get the thought process, but it's flawed to call them out when rules are used often that creates a 10 -12 months age difference in a grade. Personally as ive said before I think it gets ridiculous when that age disparity is 15-18 months different....2x "holdback"? But even then where do you draw the line in the sand? 13 months and 2 weeks?

To show some flaws in your argument, there are plenty of "holdbacks" who excel in college, many who had parents who pushed maybe too hard, I can name names but it's easy to find who they are starting back in the Walsh Jesuit stellar teams, and even some before that. Doing" nothing" as you put it strictly on continuing your wrestling career in college certainly is subjective, and it also has more to do with personal choices, than "burnout" or overbearing parents for most of those "do nothing" state placers or champs who were good enough to get a scholarship. Less than .01 percent of all wrestlers make a living off of wrestling, even those many elite wrestlers who were good enough to get a scholarship. Some food for thought.....When you look at the results from the past 20 years and this years upcoming NCAA Championships .....heres's what you'll find, those names the ones who were winning Fargo Championships, Cadet or Junior, those 3 -4 x state champs. Even many of those youth tournament champions...will still be the same guys winning NCAA titles in almost EVERY case. And some of them were "hold backs" indeed.
 
Jim Behrens said:
Well, believe it or not, debating a call that I did not make and that I can not change seems like a waste of my time.
Not a single one of you that is debating this three days later has ever been in the position of this official and likely never will be.
Whether you like it or not, and I am guessing many of you will not like it, you have the ability to watch a replay multiple times, freeze frame whenever you like and then decide that the officials erred. The official on the mat does not have that luxury. He gets one bite of the apple and has to make a snap judgement on what he just saw. I think most of you would agree that this entire action took well less than one second.
Can he get it wrong? Certainly but I am very sure that he felt it was correct at that moment. Maybe later he might feel differently but maybe he is still good with his call. I don't know and I don't care because nothing is going to change.
Then you get into endless debating over the definition of the words "hurdle", "vault", and other nonsense like did he go over the top or off to the side? The official certainly did not have time to think about any of this. Pretty easy from behind a laptop.
Now of course this will lead to more "he is just sticking up for another official". The truth is that I have a view, like all of you, from a fixed position. It is NOT the view the official had and that is the one he has to use.
I will tell you that even when I am observing an official, I almost never judge the actual call. Instead I ask them, what was your thinking when you made the call? When you think about it, and if you are honest, we learn far more from mistakes than we ever do from being "right" all the time.
With that, carry on.
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Jim, even though you didn't make the call, and even though nothing will change it at this point, can you please help us understand whether the move in the video is legal or not?
 
UsedToBe103 said:
Jim, even though you didn't make the call, and even though nothing will change it at this point, can you please help us understand whether the move in the video is legal or not?
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If it were legal he would have said the official made the correct call. One of the most frustrating things with dealing with the officials in the state of Ohio is they will never give you a straight answer on any controversial call which only makes the problems they have and scrutiny they're under worse
 
That ref that had that match thinks he is never wrong and interjects himself in every match everytime. His helper ref is no better, they are both from the Dayton area.
 
edsfootball10 said:
Don’t agree with any holdbacks regardless of where they go. Could care less if they went to my former hs or not. If your good your good end of story 🤷🏻‍♂️, seen more kids who put all there eggs in one basket and got to college and did absolutely nothing because of head case parents who live vicariously through their kids.

I absolutely love wrestling there is no sport like it it builds more character/ confidence/ discipline then anything.
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Who is this "16 year old freshman" SC that you speak of?
 
ShootNation said:
If it were legal he would have said the official made the correct call. One of the most frustrating things with dealing with the officials in the state of Ohio is they will never give you a straight answer on any controversial call which only makes the problems they have and scrutiny they're under worse
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sorry but your argument is better when you interpret the ruling, when you make bias statements like "they will never give you a straight answer " does not help your argument it actually weaknesses it
 
usawrestling said:
sorry but your argument is better when you interpret the ruling, when you make bias statements like "they will never give you a straight answer " does not help your argument it actually weaknesses it
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It's not an argument, it's the rule in the book. Black and white. Infer what you will from how other officials have talked about the call
 
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