competitive balance

I’m going to say the vast majority of private school students receive financial assistance. So since they offer aid to everyone, no, this is the furthest thing from recruiting
I am unfamiliar with how the scholarship aspect of private schools works... Do schools have "x" amount of assistance they are allowed to give out? Or can they give whoever whatever amount? Is it monitored by the state in some capacity?
 

Just.here

Well-known member
I am unfamiliar with how the scholarship aspect of private schools works... Do schools have "x" amount of assistance they are allowed to give out? Or can they give whoever whatever amount? Is it monitored by the state in some capacity?
Whoever, whatever. Sometimes it’s based on entrance test scores, legacy scholarships, etc. Often a school will work with a family to determine how much the family can afford and how much the school is willing to give to see if it’s feasible to have their child attend the school.
I don’t think either the Ohio Board of Education nor the OHSAA keep track of it don’t think there’s any reason for them to.
 

Talk some sense

Active member
Just use a tradition formula that was proposed years ago. Over a rolling period (say 4-8 years maybe?) accumulate points based on your tourney finish. Win section get x points, win district get y points, win regional get z points, win state get xx points, etc... Or accumulate points for every tourney win... I am not sure what is best. But the idea would be if you accumulate so many points over a certain number of years you get bumped up. I guess there could be a way to get bumped down as well? I don't know all the details but eventually teams would work their way up/down and find the level they belong at.

The other option is have an independent person in the state or in each region assign teams to the division they should compete in.

Just throwing some ideas out there.
Sounds like European soccer which might create so much record keeping to overwhelm the OHSAA. They can't even catch blatant rule breaking now.
 

Talk some sense

Active member
Every scenario has inequities in it. But how about this? Take each school's schedule. Add up the RPI of the teams they play from the year before. Then, the top 1/4 play in the D1 tournament; the next 1/4 play in the D2 tournament, etc. There may be geographical issues when it comes to the divisions. And this wouldn't work for football where it's more of a numbers game and enrollment almost HAS to be a large factor. But if they did this in basketball, then I can guarantee you that STVM would be D1. I'm not sure about Richmond Heights schedule, but it would likely make them a D2 school. I think something like this would slot the teams more realistically and would make for a better tournament.
Might encourage some schools to not play a tough schedule. Complicated issue for sure.
 

Talk some sense

Active member
Change how each schools enrollment #’s are counted. If a student moves/transfers into a district, their enrollment # counts as to what grade they’re going to be in. Example: if Billy is in 3rd grade when his parents move to school A, his enrollment count is 3 boys as long as he’s at school A. If school A brings in 5 AAU players in grade 9, each would count as 9 boys or an enrollment of 45. School A May also bring in 4 football players and 3 students in the band as freshman. They would increase schools enrollment # by 63. If schools have no affiliation with any K-8 schools all students would count as 9. This would bump up most schools by a division and protect schools somewhat that play with homegrown students.
Way too complicated and also assumes every move in is due to playing hoops. Love to see your spreadsheet for every school. and how you think each school should provide input. lol.
About 10 years ago I reported what I believed to be open recruiting to the OHSAA. They did not get back to me so I called them. After a few more attempts I was told they had looked into it, a did not believe any substantial violation had occured.

You be the judge. What I had reported was a private school who listed on its website scholarships available to cover much if not all of tuition costs if the applicant possessed talent of exceptional nature in music, art, academics or athletics. Is that recruiting?

You think it's bad now, just wait until the new state dollars hit the private schools from vouchers. Watch even more transfers utilize this new opportunity.
Oh so sorry your complaint 10 years ago hasn't fixed the system. lol Especially since you were probably turning in a rival to stop them having an advantage (or maybe just doing it better than the school you follow).
 

Blue Jay Fan

Well-known member
I am unfamiliar with how the scholarship aspect of private schools works... Do schools have "x" amount of assistance they are allowed to give out? Or can they give whoever whatever amount? Is it monitored by the state in some capacity?
Our school offers financial assistance to anyone who applies. It's based on need, grade level and number of students attending our school from your family. I'd guess a large majority, if not all, of our students receive financial assistance.
 

Irish60

Well-known member
"If a team has good players that *Move from one school to another school they don't belong at* move them up to D1.
And who exactly determines which school a kid "doesn't belong at"? I thought that was up to the family. For example, since STVM is always a popular topic in these threads, Sencire Harris transferred as much to leave what he and his family considered to be a bad situation as he did to transfer to STVM. Does he "not belong there"? Or consider a Summit County kid who goes to a Catholic grade school, or, better yet, to Emmanuel Christian Academy. These families have eschewed APS for the elementary school education of their children, but since maybe they don't live contiguous to STVM (or to Hoban) and may not come from the designated feeder school, do they "not belong there"? I've got no issues with how OHSAA counts kids for competitive balance purposes. And I certainly have no issue with the Irish playing in the D1 basketball tournament. But it is a Pandora's Box you are opening up when you start talking about where a kid belongs and where he doesn't.
 
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green_genes

Well-known member
I’m going to say the vast majority of private school students receive financial assistance. So since they offer aid to everyone, no, this is the furthest thing from recruiting

They don't offer aid to "everyone." No private school accepts unlimited enrollment - and they all recruit. It's a matter of survival.

Private schools and public schools with open enrollment should compete in an open division and OHSAA should eliminate any rules re: transfers. That would make it simple.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
They don't offer aid to "everyone." No private school accepts unlimited enrollment - and they all recruit. It's a matter of survival.

Private schools and public schools with open enrollment should compete in an open division and OHSAA should eliminate any rules re: transfers. That would make it simple.
That’s why I said vast majority. Then used a little hyperbole thinking that people would understand what I was talking about… guess not then.
 

Irish60

Well-known member
You know, if people cared as much about "levelling the playing field" in important matters as some people on here do about something as insignificant as a high school basketball tournament, the world would be a much better place.
 

CometCountry

Well-known member
Ohio basketball coaches for at least 30 years have been asking that OHSAA move to 5 divisions for basketball, which would help especially the small D1 schools, and provide additional opportunities to make tournament runs for many more schools. OHSAA continued to increase divisions to 7 in football, but will not even bump basketball to 5---now is the time to have around 160 teams in 5 divisions rather than close to 200 in 4 divisions. Far too many blowouts that make the boys tournament not enticing for fans who just want to watch competitive basketball.
 

green_genes

Well-known member
That’s why I said vast majority. Then used a little hyperbole thinking that people would understand what I was talking about… guess not then.

But you said it was "the furthest thing from recruiting," which implies that no competitive advantage is gained.

That simply isn't true. By virtue of drawing from a much larger talent pool while, at the same time, being able to limit enrollment and thereby compete against schools drawing from a geographically constrained talent pool, private schools absolutely derive all of the benefits of "recruiting" regardless of what percentage of students get financial assistance.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
But you said it was "the furthest thing from recruiting," which implies that no competitive advantage is gained.

That simply isn't true. By virtue of drawing from a much larger talent pool while, at the same time, being able to limit enrollment and thereby compete against schools drawing from a geographically constrained talent pool, private schools absolutely derive all of the benefits of "recruiting" regardless of what percentage of students get financial assistance.
The post was talking about illegal recruiting, which it isn’t.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
Far too many blowouts that make the boys tournament not enticing for fans who just want to watch competitive basketball.
I think this is the issue that the OHSAA needs to get their heads around. Divisions were designed to give schools with similar resources a chance to compete against each other. They defined those resources as the number of boys in the school that could contribute to a basketball team. A school with high level of participation should be extremely competitive. A school with low level of participation should be non-competitive.

That system worked for a long time but is no longer relevant. There are schools with massive participation who only have mild success while there are other schools that do not have any development system that are playing at the highest levels. Number of boys in the school is only relevant to the teams in the middle and the bottom. We need a new system.

As others have mentioned, using the regular season schedule is a good start. No D4 team in Ohio should be able to play a solid D1 schedule and be competitive. Most D4 schools would never dream of scheduling a state level D1 team because they know they would get run off the court 10 out of 10 times.
 

green_genes

Well-known member
I think this is the issue that the OHSAA needs to get their heads around. Divisions were designed to give schools with similar resources a chance to compete against each other. They defined those resources as the number of boys in the school that could contribute to a basketball team. A school with high level of participation should be extremely competitive. A school with low level of participation should be non-competitive.

That system worked for a long time but is no longer relevant. There are schools with massive participation who only have mild success while there are other schools that do not have any development system that are playing at the highest levels. Number of boys in the school is only relevant to the teams in the middle and the bottom. We need a new system.

As others have mentioned, using the regular season schedule is a good start. No D4 team in Ohio should be able to play a solid D1 schedule and be competitive. Most D4 schools would never dream of scheduling a state level D1 team because they know they would get run off the court 10 out of 10 times.

Maybe make kids who transfer after 9th grade ineligible for state tournament competition unless they have a documented relocation over a certain threshold?

Let them play the entire regular season.

They can enroll anywhere they want as long as they start HS there.

At least, at that point, you're talking about teams that play together and develop over the course of their high school career and not a group of mercenaries looking for exposure.
 
Maybe make kids who transfer after 9th grade ineligible for state tournament competition unless they have a documented relocation over a certain threshold?

Let them play the entire regular season.

They can enroll anywhere they want as long as they start HS there.

At least, at that point, you're talking about teams that play together and develop over the course of their high school career and not a group of mercenaries looking for exposure.
That is how the OHSAA transfer rules are now. They can only play the first 50% of the season when they transfer... UNLESS they meet one of the exceptions.. I know moving into a district is one of them.. not sure about the rest.
 

RJH

New member
Way too complicated and also assumes every move in is due to playing hoops. Love to see your spreadsheet for every school. and how you think each school should provide input. lol.

Oh so sorry your complaint 10 years ago hasn't fixed the system. lol Especially since you were probably turning in a rival to stop them having an advantage (or maybe just doing it better than the school you follow).
That spreadsheet would not be difficult.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
There is no combination of transfer rules or competitive balance formula that will not negatively impact someone. Push D4 to D3, push D3 to D2, push D2 to D1. The result is someone will get beat by a team that they would not have otherwise played.

Some moves are for legit reasons others are for athletics - who is to judge what is legit and what is not? Do you push the review of every last change of address to OHSAA and away from the schools? Better increase those dues to cover increased staff, enforcement and lie detector tests.

Don't like the OHSAA format - schools could create their own invite only State Championship tourney. Invite whatever 16 teams you want, based on whatever criteria you want and award a medal. Just replace 4 games at the end of your regular season schedule. Call it "The Sterile - I Live in a Bubble State Championship".

Much of this is tongue and cheek, but I think this is all overblown. A state championship is very cool, but all the people I know who won a state championship don't seem to be living any different than those who did not win.

And what is cooler than a win like Marion Local had over Cornerstone. Means a lot more than beating a lesser team.
 
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Yappi

Go Buckeyes
There is no combination of transfer rules or competitive balance formula that will not negatively impact someone. Push D4 to D3, push D3 to D2, push D2 to D1. The result is someone will get beat by a team that they would not have otherwise played.

Some moves are for legit reasons others are for athletics - who is to judge what is legit and what is not? Do you push the review of every last change of address to OHSAA and away from the schools? Better increase those dues to cover increased staff, enforcement and lie detector tests.

Don't like the OHSAA format - schools could create their own invite only State Championship tourney. Invite whatever 16 teams you want, based on whatever criteria you want and award a medal. Just replace 4 games at the end of your regular season schedule. Call it "The Sterile - I Live in a Bubble State Championship".

Much of this is tongue and cheek, but I think this is all overblow. A state championship is very cool, but all the people I know who won a state championship don't seem to be living any different than those who did not win.

And what is cooler than a win like Marion Local had over Cornerstone. Means a lot more than beating a lesser team.
I understand what you are saying but I look at it from the overall "health" of Ohio High School basketball. Right now, it is not healthy. Numbers are down. Interest is down. Quality is down. Attendance is down.

The OHSAA's goal should be to make each sport as widely available as possible. Of course, any rule they put out there will have some positives and some negatives. Some schools will get hurt no matter what rule is implemented. Some players will get hurt no matter what rule is implemented. With that in mind, they need to implement rules that grow the game.

Is the system fair now? No. Will the system be fair with any rule set? No. IMO, they need to forget about trying to make everyone happy and need to do what is best for the whole group. All I want to see again is close games throughout the tournament and engaged fans filling up the arena. We would still have 4 state champions and people complaining things weren't "fair" but at least it will be entertaining again.
 

madworld

Member
Competitive balance is focused on open enrollment districts and private schools but closed districts will never have competitive balance according to the guidelines, as I understand them, which is why Richmond Heights has a 0 competitive balance and always will.
There is no real answer because whatever you push out will have some loophole that will be found and used. It’s sad but that’s the state of athletics right now,
 

Smalls

Well-known member
I understand what you are saying but I look at it from the overall "health" of Ohio High School basketball. Right now, it is not healthy. Numbers are down. Interest is down. Quality is down. Attendance is down.

The OHSAA's goal should be to make each sport as widely available as possible. Of course, any rule they put out there will have some positives and some negatives. Some schools will get hurt no matter what rule is implemented. Some players will get hurt no matter what rule is implemented. With that in mind, they need to implement rules that grow the game.

Is the system fair now? No. Will the system be fair with any rule set? No. IMO, they need to forget about trying to make everyone happy and need to do what is best for the whole group. All I want to see again is close games throughout the tournament and engaged fans filling up the arena. We would still have 4 state champions and people complaining things weren't "fair" but at least it will be entertaining again.

Were the games that were not competitive a result of the winning team being great or the losing team being not so great.

Would the teams that won this year beat past state champions or runner ups in their division or did they benefit from a down year within their division?

Having watched teams like Convoy Crestview and Marion Local the last a few years - I don't think there is any chance that they get walked over by Richmond Heights if they were to play this year. The teams Richmond Heights beat were good not great teams and may not have been state championship caliber unless they happen to strike lightening during a down year. Winning a State Champions should be hard.
 
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Knight27

Member
How about an out of box thought. Play your season and you get placed into a tournament based on the number of wins in the regular season. If you Richmond Hts goes 21-2 they get placed with the big boys. If Springboro goes 5-18 they get placed in the lower tourney. Use a formula for % wins based on current division level.
 
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