CCS West Catholic League

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consumerman

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Here are the final regular season records of the West Catholic League

Bellarmine Prep (San Jose, CA) 5 1 0 83% 9 1 0 90%
Serra (San Mateo, CA) 4 2 0 67% 7 3 0 70%
Valley Christian (San Jose, CA) 3 2 1 58% 7 2 1 75%
Mitty (San Jose, CA) 3 3 0 50% 7 3 0 70%
Riordan (San Francisco, CA) 2 3 1 42% 6 3 1 65%
St. Francis (Mountain View, CA) 2 3 1 42% 4 4 2 50%
St. Ignatius (San Francisco, CA) 0 5 1 8% 4 5 1 45%



in previous posts I have also included Sacred Heart, a former WCAL football league member who is rejoining the league next year, and had several games against WCAL teams this year

the non-league record of the league (excluding Sacred Heart) is 27-2-1

and include a loss by Serra to DLS and a tie by St Francis with 9-0-1 Los Gatos and a loss to 9-1 St Marys of Stockton by St Francis 20-13

also Riordan benefiteed from a forfeit win, they lost on the field 21-14 to a washington catholic power, who ended up forfeiting all their games
 
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5 of those 7 teams made the CCS playoffs

4 in the "open" division

and 1 in the "medium" division

Serra, which just beat previously undefeated Bellarmine, now has a rematch with the Bells

they are considered co-favorites to win the open division

Mitty gets 9-1 Oak Grove (lone loss was to WCAL member St Francis) incidentally I went to Oak Grove my freshman and sophomore years in high school. My freshman year, Oak Grove had its first ever winning season, going 10-0 and being ranked #2 in the large CCS (12 leagues). They beat section #1 and national #10 Saratoga 28-18 in the first round, but lost in the next round to eventual champion Leland. In the final, Leland beat Riordan coached by future UCLA head coach Bob Toledo

Valley Christian gets 8-2 Gilroy while RIordan plays in the medium division
 
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Bellarmine went 9-1 and its lone loss was to that (according to concha) cupcake Serra

Valley Christian went 7-2-1 and its worst game was a loss to that cupcake Serra, 39-22, their only other loss was to Bellarmine 20-14

Serra also beat McQueen (Reno) 37-13, McQueen is 11-1

Serra beat Gilroy 8-2, 52-31

Serra beat Buchanana 7-4, 41-7

ya that Serra is a real cupcake
 
Sorry to interrupt your conversation with yourself, but could you please, please tell us the tales of mighty 4-4-2 St. Francis and 6-3-1 (5-4-1 on the filed...thanks!) Riordan. You know, the two other teams that have dropped Ls on mighty Serra?
 
concha said:
Sorry to interrupt your conversation with yourself, but could you please, please tell us the tales of mighty 4-4-2 St. Francis and 6-3-1 Riordan. You know, the two other teams that have dropped Ls on mighty Serra?
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it is a very competitive league

as evidenced by their 27-2-1 non-league record

which includes a loss to DLS, a loss to a 9-1 team by 7 and a tie with a 9-0-1 team

can you read??


their performance overall is less than expectations but they did put a whippingon an 11-1 team, did beat a state #9 team that was 9-0 and handed CCS power Valley Christian a 17 point shellacking

if you understood a REAL competitive league from team 1 through team 7, not St X and the 3 dwarfs, you would get it

same ol concha

never gives any team credit for anything
 
consumerman said:
Bellarmine went 9-1 and its lone loss was to that (according to concha) cupcake Serra

Valley Christian went 7-2-1 and its worst game was a loss to that cupcake Serra, 39-22, their only other loss was to Bellarmine 20-14

Serra also beat McQueen (Reno) 37-13, McQueen is 11-1

Serra beat Gilroy 8-2, 52-31

Serra beat Buchanana 7-4, 41-7

ya that Serra is a real cupcake
Click to expand...

And Serra lost to 4-4-2 St. Francis and 5-4-1 Riordan (20-3, ouch). They must have forgotten to ask Francis to lighten up.
 
concha said:
And Serra lost to 4-4-2 St. Francis and 5-4-1 Riordan (20-3, ouch). They must have forgotten to ask Francis to lighten up.
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st francis was THE CCS power (along with Bellarmine) for many years, probably the mid seventies until the mid 90s when Coach Calcagno retired

they held DLS to their lowest offensive outputs during the streak, losing 21-0 in 1998 and 14-0 in 2002, I believe

that WAS a clever line about the lancers to lighten up
 
consumerman said:
same ol concha

never gives any team credit for anything
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I give them credit for beating 6 teams that people in NorCal might about and the team from Reno, who I am sure are highly regarded in football crazy Western Nevada.


I also give them credit for losing to 4-4-2 St. Francis and getting on the board with three points against 5-4-1 Riordan.

Happy now?
 
DLS has been on-off rumored to join the WCAL for many years

the problem is that the WCAL is in the CCS, while DLS is in the NCS

if DLS were to join that league, it would be one of the premier leagues in the state, and possibly the nation

but the chance of that is like 2%
 
concha said:
I give them credit for beating 6 teams that people in NorCal might about and the team from Reno, who I am sure are highly regarded in football crazy Western Nevada.


I also give them credit for losing to 4-4-2 St. Francis and getting on the board with three points against 5-4-1 Riordan.

Happy now?
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well I will ask you this without trying to 1 up each other

what do you think of the WCAL, overall and in terms of quality and quantity

its competitiveness within the league and its dominace out of the league 27-2-1

and I will remind you that Sacred heart - San Francisco, a WCAL football team when I was in high school, will be rejoining the league next year and will be on par with their arch rival St Ignatius, which was winless in league and undefeated out of league
 
concha said:
I give them credit for beating 6 teams that people in NorCal might about and the team from Reno, who I am sure are highly regarded in football crazy Western Nevada.


I also give them credit for losing to 4-4-2 St. Francis and getting on the board with three points against 5-4-1 Riordan.

Happy now?
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it is crazy they beat the #1 and #3 teams in the league and lost to the #5 and #6 teams in league
 
St Francis 2007

vs Oak Grove 9-1, won 31-15
vs. South City 3-7, won 21-10
vs. Los Gatos, 9-0-1, tied 3-3
vs. St Mary's 9-1, lost 20-13

league
vs Serra 7-3, won 13-10
vs Bellarmine 9-1, lost 21-16
vs Valley Christian, 7-2-1, lost 36-8
vs St Ignatius, 4-5-1, won 33-0
vs Riordan 6-3-1, tied 21-21
vs Mitty, 7-3 lost 24-18

three (of 4) non league games with opponents records 27-2-1, went 1-1-1
one non league game vs . 3-7 team, won 21-10
6 league games 40-16-3, went 2-3-1
 
consumerman said:
well I will ask you this without trying to 1 up each other

what do you think of the WCAL, overall and in terms of quality and quantity
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It is hard to judge.

Most of their play is local and against teams I've never heard of or heard much about apart from DLS.

And you need to keep in mind that when I judge, I judge from a GCL perspective. I did a quick look and the GCL was about 24-6 against non-league opponents this year. I believe 22 of these games were against teams with winning records (excl. games versus the GCL). Fifteen or sixteen of the games were versus teams with 2 or fewer losses.

X went 8-0 versus teams with a combined 60-15 record (excl. the X result)

Moe went 6-2 versus comp that was 51-21-1.

LaSalle was 4-3 versus comp that was 49-16.

Elder had the weakest. They went 6-1 against comp that went 29-34.


Included in the above competitors are many highly regarded teams like Colerain, DeMatha, Glenville, Trinity (KY), Ignatius (2x), Independence (NC), Brother Rice (MI) and other respected Ohio opponents like Sycamore (9-1) and Centerville (9-1, alma mater of Kirk Herbstriet and AJ Hawk). The numbers of state titles and national or regional poll appearances by GCL competitors is nuts.

There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten. Last I checked, the GCL had four of the top five spots nationally. And remember, the "cal" in calpreps stands for California.

Update: Here is the latest top 10 SoS per calpreps. Love or hate'em...

1 St. Xavier (Cincinnati, OH)
2 Archbishop Moeller (Cincinnati, OH)
3 La Salle (Cincinnati, OH)
4 St. Edward (Lakewood, OH)
5 East St. John (Reserve, LA)
6 Elder (Cincinnati, OH)
7 Servite (Anaheim, CA)
8 Leander (TX)
9 McNeil (Austin, TX)
10 St. Ignatius (Cleveland, OH)

Of the top 25 SoS ratings, Ohio had 8 and Texas and California 6 each. California's were broken down by 4 Southern Section and 2 Central Coast teams. Ohio's were also weighted to the top of the rankings.
 
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concha said:
It is hard to judge.

Most of their play is local and against teams I've never heard of or heard much about apart from DLS.

And you need to keep in mind that when I judge, I judge from a GCL perspective. I did a quick look and the GCL was about 24-6 against non-league opponents this year. I believe 22 of these games were against teams with winning records (excl. games versus the GCL). Fifteen or sixteen of the games were versus teams with 2 or fewer losses.

X went 8-0 versus teams with a combined 60-15 record (excl. the X result)

Moe went 6-2 versus comp that was 51-21-1.

LaSalle was 4-3 versus comp that was 49-16.

Elder had the weakest. They went 6-1 against comp that went 29-34.


Included in the above competitors are many highly regarded teams like Colerain, DeMatha, Glenville, Trinity (KY), Ignatius (2x), Independence (NC), Brother Rice (MI) and other respected Ohio opponents like Sycamore (9-1) and Centerville (9-1, alma mater of Kirk Herbstriet and AJ Hawk). The numbers of state titles and national or regional poll appearances by GCL competitors is nuts.

There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten. Last I checked, the GCL had four of the top five spots nationally. And remember, the "cal" in calpreps stands for California.

Update: Here is the latest top 10 SoS per calpreps. Love or hate'em...

1 St. Xavier (Cincinnati, OH)
2 Archbishop Moeller (Cincinnati, OH)
3 La Salle (Cincinnati, OH)
4 St. Edward (Lakewood, OH)
5 East St. John (Reserve, LA)
6 Elder (Cincinnati, OH)
7 Servite (Anaheim, CA)
8 Leander (TX)
9 McNeil (Austin, TX)
10 St. Ignatius (Cleveland, OH)

Of the top 25 SoS ratings, Ohio had 8 and Texas and California 6 each. California's were broken down by 4 Southern Section and 2 Central Coast teams. Ohio's were also weighted to the top of the rankings.
Click to expand...


Ughh. And people wonder why I spend so much time working to expose the fallacies of a computer system that ranks teams on a national basis. Otherwise intelligent people put great stock into that stuff.

"There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten."

What is your hypothesis for why the supposedly objective computer comes to the conclusions about Ohio teams?
 
skyway28 said:
Ughh. And people wonder why I spend so much time working to expose the fallacies of a computer system that ranks teams on a national basis. Otherwise intelligent people put great stock into that stuff.

"There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten."

What is your hypothesis for why the supposedly objective computer comes to the conclusions about Ohio teams?
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It is not just the computer. That is a major part of the point. In my experience pollsters are of the same opinion regarding the schedules of teams like St. X. I don't think the calpreps model arriving at the same conclusion is a coincidence.

Ohio football is highly regarded. I don't think that is argued. Its top teams interplay much more than in other highly regarded states. Games between the likes of St. Xavier, Elder, Moe, Colerain, Ignatius, St. Edward, McKinley, Massillon and others are all commonplace in Ohio. Much of it has to do with the Harbin system. Many teams refuse to play teams like the Big Catholics and hurt their chances for the post-season, so the Catholic powers have to play one another and seek out-of-state competition. Lakeland, Warren Central, DeMatha, Trinity, Independence, DLS, Bethlehem Catholic, Louisville St. X, Byrnes and others have all been faced just by the GCL in recent years.

When the top programs from a top state play one another more frequently than those in other states, and play out-of-state powers also, it only stands to reason that their strength of schedule will be considered very highly.

Example: X has played 8 games against non-league competition this year. Only one of those eight had a losing record, and then only because that team played three games versus the GCL. Overrall, those eight teams were 60-23 excluding their losses to X. Four of five Ohio foes qualified for the Ohio post-season and one is still alive. All three out-of-state competitors will be solid contenders for state titles.


So:

1) Highly regarded state
2) High interplay amongst its top programs compared to other top states
3) Significant out-of-state play (at least a dozen games by the GCL, for example)
4) Play versus non-Ohio powers (Dematha, Trinity, Independence and some lesser powers)


As a generalization, it comes down to teams that tend to win most of their games playing teams that tend to win most of their games. Over half of the GCL's non-league comp so far this year has between 0 and 2 losses apart from their GCL games.
 
just will point out MANY of the teams you said the GCL has had to seek out are really teams that were matched against them in the herbie

saying elder went and seeked to play DLS is false
saying Moeller went and seeked to play Byrnes is false

a majority of the teams you mentioned were in fact herbie matchups

you are smarter than that
 
from sfgate.com on local playoffs

: Serra beat five league champions, including a 52-31 win over third-seeded Gilroy

still think they are a cupcake?
 
I could not resist

I have to hijack this thread and let you know that SLC would beat all those teams. I couldnt resist.

PS: This is not WoodyHayes writing this. I am another Texas poster who has busted in to Woody's house and have hijacked his computer.
 
consumerman said:
just will point out MANY of the teams you said the GCL has had to seek out are really teams that were matched against them in the herbie

saying elder went and seeked to play DLS is false
saying Moeller went and seeked to play Byrnes is false

a majority of the teams you mentioned were in fact herbie matchups

you are smarter than that
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When they signed up for the Herbie, who do you think they were expecting to play? Prominent programs from around the nation, right?
 
consumerman said:
from sfgate.com on local playoffs

: Serra beat five league champions, including a 52-31 win over third-seeded Gilroy

still think they are a cupcake?
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Of course. Maybe they aren't to the five champions of the girls school leagues they beat, but losing to St. Francine AND Riordan? What were their records again?
 
concha said:
Of course. Maybe they aren't to the five champions of the girls school leagues they beat, but losing to St. Francine AND Riordan? What were their records again?
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st francis and riordan lost 1 game and tied 1 game OUT OF LEAGUE

st francis lost to a 9-1 team 20-13
st francis tied a 9-0-1 team 3-3

how many times do I have to post these?

and serra BEAT 5 league champs, including the champ in their own wcal bellarmine who was 9-0 entering the game
 
consumerman said:
like that power from arkansas that couldnt beat a junior high team
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Springdale didn't live up to expectations. Oh, well. The majority of out-of-state teams that show up at the Herbie do very well.

Lakeland (15-0)

Byrnes (12-2, losing to the state champions twice)

DLS (13-1)

Hoover (9-1 on the field, loss was in the Herbie)

Dematha (9-2, one loss from the Herbie)

Hamilton (13-1, loss in the Herbie)

Don Bosco (12-0)

Buford (10-0)

Poly (9-1)

Tulsa Union (11-0)

Gateway (10-1, loss in the Herbie)

Central Catholic (11-0)


Apart from Springdale and Cardinal O'Hara, the visiting teams to the Herbie have basically ranged from state champions to well above average at worst. If you get that crystal ball of yours working so they can avoid teams in down years, then let Kirk know.
 
consumerman said:
st francis and riordan lost 1 game and tied 1 game OUT OF LEAGUE

st francis lost to a 9-1 team 20-13
st francis tied a 9-0-1 team 3-3

how many times do I have to post these?

and serra BEAT 5 league champs, including the champ in their own wcal bellarmine who was 9-0 entering the game
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High quality leagues I'm sure.
 
consumerman said:
4 from cali

1 frem nevada

cali is 3-0 at the herbie against those awesome gcl teams and glenvile which beat that awesome st ugly team you try to make a power
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DLS is not in any of those leagues you mention, right?

Poly? No.

MV? I don't believe so.

The Ohio teams that lost have/had 10 losses between them at last count. The Cali teams they played have/had four. 3-0 is 3-0. But there are no real signature wins there.

The Poly - Glenville game went down to the wire, as did the Glenville-Iggy game (as did the Moe-MV game). I am not trying to make Ignatius anything. And I haven't called them awesome. They have an excellent football program and a young team this year.
 
concha said:
DLS is not in any of those leagues you mention, right?

Poly? No.

MV? I don't believe so.

The Ohio teams that lost have/had 10 losses between them at last count. The Cali teams they played have/had four. 3-0 is 3-0. But there are no real signature wins there.

The Poly - Glenville game went down to the wire, as did the Glenville-Iggy game (as did the Moe-MV game). I am not trying to make Ignatius anything. And I haven't called them awesome. They have an excellent football program and a young team this year.
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you ARE trying to belittle serra which plays in the ultra-competitive west catholic league

that leagues IS 27-2-1 in non-league games this year

the losses are to a 9-0 and a 9-1 team the tie is to a 9-0-1 team

serra BEAT the #1 and #3 teams in the west catholic league, although they lost to the #5 and #6 teams

they beat last saturday state #9 undefeated bellarmine

they HAVE beaten 5 league champions

st francis one team they lost to (13-10) also beat the ccs #1 seeded playoff team Oak Grove (9-1) 31-15

just accept facts for once and dont try to spin city it

that you are ignorant of the facts and the quality of the west catholic league does not surprise me
 
If you get that crystal ball of yours working so they can avoid teams in down years, then let Kirk know.

all this from a guy who criticized dls cupcake schedule which included norcal #2 serra and ccs power palma who went 8-1 in games other than dls as well as national power mission viejo and former ss finalitst loyola, the rest of their games are league games

talk about crystal balls to avoid down years
ya MV in their down year beat a gcl playoff winning team

hindsight and jealousy are more appropriate terms
 
consumerman said:
If you get that crystal ball of yours working so they can avoid teams in down years, then let Kirk know.

all this from a guy who criticized dls cupcake schedule which included norcal #2 serra and ccs power palma who went 8-1 in games other than dls as well as national power mission viejo and former ss finalitst loyola, the rest of their games are league games

talk about crystal balls to avoid down years
ya MV in their down year beat a gcl playoff winning team

hindsight and jealousy are more appropriate terms
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I didn't criticize it. You are just being an oversensitive pantywaist.

I said it was a shame to have such an apparently good team this year yet no top notch comp (they're Ali without a Frazier). You disagree?


1) Against its two toughest competitors, Palma lost by a combined 90-14. They beat their 3rd toughest by 7-3. All other wins were over teams with between 4 and 10 losses.

2) MV is now a national power for the sake of DLS's sched this year? Great. 5-3 in Ohio Moeller lost to a national power. Good to know.

3) Loyola is 4-6.

4) Serra's opponents aren't necessarily awesome to behold. Four-loss "league champion" Buchanan finished in a 3-way tie for first. The other two "champs" had 3 or 4 losses also. Their wins? Over teams with 4 losses, 5 losses, 10 losses....McQueen from Nevada? Think there may be a reason you don't hear much about nationally or regionally recognized teams from Nevada? Gilroy is 2-2 outside its league. One of those wins is over a sub-.500 team and the other to a small division school. And Serra lost to teams that are 9-8-3 on the field.
 
concha said:
It is not just the computer. That is a major part of the point. In my experience pollsters are of the same opinion regarding the schedules of teams like St. X. I don't think the calpreps model arriving at the same conclusion is a coincidence.

Ohio football is highly regarded. I don't think that is argued. Its top teams interplay much more than in other highly regarded states. Games between the likes of St. Xavier, Elder, Moe, Colerain, Ignatius, St. Edward, McKinley, Massillon and others are all commonplace in Ohio. Much of it has to do with the Harbin system. Many teams refuse to play teams like the Big Catholics and hurt their chances for the post-season, so the Catholic powers have to play one another and seek out-of-state competition. Lakeland, Warren Central, DeMatha, Trinity, Independence, DLS, Bethlehem Catholic, Louisville St. X, Byrnes and others have all been faced just by the GCL in recent years.

When the top programs from a top state play one another more frequently than those in other states, and play out-of-state powers also, it only stands to reason that their strength of schedule will be considered very highly.

Example: X has played 8 games against non-league competition this year. Only one of those eight had a losing record, and then only because that team played three games versus the GCL. Overrall, those eight teams were 60-23 excluding their losses to X. Four of five Ohio foes qualified for the Ohio post-season and one is still alive. All three out-of-state competitors will be solid contenders for state titles.


So:

1) Highly regarded state
2) High interplay amongst its top programs compared to other top states
3) Significant out-of-state play (at least a dozen games by the GCL, for example)
4) Play versus non-Ohio powers (Dematha, Trinity, Independence and some lesser powers)


As a generalization, it comes down to teams that tend to win most of their games playing teams that tend to win most of their games. Over half of the GCL's non-league comp so far this year has between 0 and 2 losses apart from their GCL games.
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There's no doubt you are accurate in explaining how the computer arrives at its numbers. How many games in 2007 have teams from Ohio played against a team from any of the Southeastern states? Texas? California? Not enough to have a sufficient sample. 99% of all of those out-of-state games are against teams from states in the Midwest or Northeast-read mostly of the not-so-athletic variety. Lakeland is the only athletic team any of those teams has faced. And that Lakeland team was uncharacteristically weak at QB and one-dimensional, which X's stack defense is designed to stop.

Fact is, what Ohio teams do against teams from Indiana, Kentucky etc tells us little to nothing about how they fare against the best from other places. And, a couple of home games against a handful of teams traveling long-distances to play in front of partisan crowds (The Herbie) doesn't count for much, either.
 
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