Best PSU team ever? Best NCAA team ever?

bdhof said:
OK, I'm reviving this thread. PSU ran thru a few records to lay claim as the GOAT NCAA team. Did they prove their claim? Many of the "can't compare different eras" crowd will refuse to be moved. And the "3 pt takedown" crowd will argue that MDs and TFs are inflated w/ this change so you can't compare before 3 pt era teams to after 3 pt era team.

For the record here's what just happened. They squeaked by 1997 IOWA's previous record of 170 w/ 172.5. And yes, 3 pt takedowns played a role. They had 9 MDs and 8 TFs. Several of them likely wouldn't have happened w/o the 3 pt TD.

Their margin of victory was 100 pts, well past the previous record of 70 by 2005 OKST. And everybody got 3 pts for a TD, not just PSU.

They fell short of the most champs, 4 to 5 (by 2 IOWA teams and 1 PSU team).

They fell short on matching MINN 2001 team w/ 10 AAs. But no one outside of MINN would claim this team as the GOAT.

So, I could see a lot of valid arguments both ways on the GOAT issue. Here's where I think this team may be looked upon as the GOAT. They have 2 4x NCAA champs on this team - never been done before. And, one of those may be a 5x champ - never been done before. And the rest of the squad isn't too bad either. Haines, a SO and Kerk a JR both won NCAAs. Will Kerk end up a 2Xer and Haines a 3Xer? Who else on this team will end up w/ a NCAA title or multiple titles? Maybe #1 seed Davis, runnerups Barlett or Messenbrink. When you look back in 3 years and count the number of NCCA champs and 2Xers, 3Xers, 4Xers and a 5Xer on this team, you may be convinced. This is a great team and quite possibly the GOAT.

And not to short-circuit their GOAT status, but they only lose 2 guys this year - 4Xer Brooks and 4X AA Truax. I don't know who they are recruiting or poaching but they'll be bringing in some more studs (poached Messenbrink, Truax and Nagao this year and Kerk from tOSU a few years ago).

Finally, I can't ever think of a more dominant college coach in any sport than Cael. But I'll wait until he breaks Gable's record of 15 NCAA titles until I declare him the GOAT. Cael is sitting on 11.
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Great post & I agree 100%. On Flo, they said that the tournament scoring and who made wrestlebacks was also decided differently in the two eras. Also, the Iowa team apparently lost a dual during the season and was not even favored to win the NCAAs going into the tournament.

Anyway, take all of this FWIW. They are both unquestionably all-time great teams and programs with dynastic coaches. A tip of the cap to all.
 
bdhof said:
So, I could see a lot of valid arguments both ways on the GOAT issue. Here's where I think this team may be looked upon as the GOAT. They have 2 4x NCAA champs on this team - never been done before. And, one of those may be a 5x champ - never been done before. And the rest of the squad isn't too bad either. Haines, a SO and Kerk a JR both won NCAAs. Will Kerk end up a 2Xer and Haines a 3Xer? Who else on this team will end up w/ a NCAA title or multiple titles? Maybe #1 seed Davis, runnerups Barlett or Messenbrink. When you look back in 3 years and count the number of NCCA champs and 2Xers, 3Xers, 4Xers and a 5Xer on this team, you may be convinced. This is a great team and quite possibly the GOAT.
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I did another quick comparison based on individuals on the team that may add additional championships or AAs to the picture. I looked at the '97 IOWA team's accomplishments in prior and later years to 1997, and the same for this PSU team. The obvious problem w/ this approach is that the picture for 8 of the PSU guys isn't finished yet. But I decided not to wait 3 years.

What really impressed me was how great this IOWA team was. You had two 3X'ers in Lincoln Mcllvary and Joe Williams, a 2X'er in Mark Ironside (my favorite name), and 5 total w/ a NCAA title. Then you had 2 others that were 2nd, and 9 total on that team who were AAs (8 AAs in 1997). They had five 4X AAs and one 2X AA. That is an historically great team that arguably none can be compared to...until this year.

PSU, w/ 8 guys coming back, has two 4X'ers and 2 other 1X'er. Then you had 2 others who were 2nd and 9 total who were AAs (8 in 2024). They also have four 4X AAs and two 2X AAs. BUT, and this is a big but, as said earlier, they have 8 guys coming back. So, they're likely to blow right past IOWA's collection of Champs and AAs in the next 3 years. Another big BUT is the extra covid year that many of these guys got. BUT the argument could be made that many of those who benefit from the extra covid year lost a year. Regardless, I'll be glad when all the covid hold-overs are gone.

Just for the fun of it, I listed all of the AAs (total for 4/5 years eligibility) from the 2 teams and awarded pts (8 to 1 for placing 1st to 8th). Both teams totaled 150 pts and both had a total of 10 titles. Again, PSU will add to that w/ their returners. So, Ill stick to my original opinion that this PSU team is the GOAT.
 
disciple said:
No discussion on the Minnesota TEAM that placed ALL 10 of their wrestlers. My vote for best TEAM.
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I was playing around w/ some stats, looking at some of the teams in the conversation on this thread as among the GOAT candidates. The teams I looked at were 2024 & 2017 PSU, 1997 & 1986 IOWA, and 2001 MINN. The criteria I looked at was pts scored in NCAAs, margin of victory, and historical greatness (HG) of the team. HG was based on the total careers of the individuals on the team. I gave 8 pts for a 1st at NCAAs, 7 for 2nd, etc. For example, Aaron Brooks got 32 pts (8x4). I actually think that HG is the true measure of the GOAT. Regardless, MINN came in last in each category.

2024 PSU came in 1st obviously in team pts & margin of victory, and 1st overall. They were tied for 3rd in HG, but w/ 8 guys coming back they'll likely pass everybody. They do have an * w/ the covid free year. That really benefits Bartlett, Starocci and Kerk who all get an 5th year. Everyone else on their team either lost a year in 2020 or weren't on the team yet. The covid year did penalize the 2017 PSU team as 2X champ Joseph and 1X champ Hall lost their senior year, and perhaps others on that team. Regardless, even w/ Joseph and Hall getting their senior years, that PSU squad currently leads all others in the HG category. How good was that team? Not only did they have 3X'er Retherford, 3X'er Nolf, 3X'er, Nickal, 2X'er Joseph (3X finalist who lost the covid year), 1X'er Hall (3X finalist wout of PSU after that year who lost the covid year), but also 2X'er (and 3X finalist) Suraino who was a FR that year who was entered in the NCAAs but MFF'ed out. He transferred out after his one year at PSU, but he was a member of that amazing team.

When I was doing my research I found a few other teams that, w/o running the numbers, appeared to be way up on the HG, perhaps surpassing some of these other teams - the IOWA teams w/ the Brands brothers and our own Tom Ryan (1991) and the Banach brothers (1983). I found another team w/ 5 champs, the 2005 OKST w/ the great Steve Mocco at 275. I didn't add all these teams to my spread sheet, but might do it some day when I get bored. But I'll stick to my earlier statement on MINN. 10 AAs is a great accomplishment, one that hasn't been repeated. But IMO, HG is the best barometer of the GOAT.
 
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bdhof said:
I was playing around w/ some stats, looking at some of the teams in the conversation on this thread as among the GOAT candidates. The teams I looked at were 2024 & 2017 PSU, 1997 & 1986 IOWA, and 2001 MINN. The criteria I looked at was pts scored in NCAAs, margin of victory, and historical greatness (HG) of the team. HG was based on the total careers of the individuals on the team. I gave 8 pts for a 1st at NCAAs, 7 for 2nd, etc. For example, Aaron Brooks got 32 pts (8x4). I actually think that HG is the true measure of the GOAT. Regardless, MINN came in last in each category.

2024 PSU came in 1st obviously in team pts & margin of victory, and 1st overall. They were tied for 3rd in HG, but w/ 8 guys coming back they'll likely pass everybody. They do have an * w/ the covid free year. However that really only benefits Starocci, who was on a red shirt in 2020. Everyone else on their team either lost a year in 2020 or weren't on the team yet. The covid year did penalize the 2017 PSU team as 2X champ Joseph and 1X champ Hall lost their senior year, and perhaps others on that team. Regardless, even w/ Joseph and Hall getting their senior years, that PSU squad currently leads all others in the HG category. How good was that team? Not only did they have 3X'er Retherford, 3X'er Nolf, 3X'er, Nickal, 2X'er Joseph (3X finalist who lost the covid year), 1X'er Hall (3X finalist wout of PSU after that year who lost the covid year), but also 2X'er (and 3X finalist) Suraino who was a FR that year who was entered in the NCAAs but MFF'ed out. He transferred out after his one year at PSU, but he was a member of that amazing team.

When I was doing my research I found a few other teams that, w/o running the numbers, appeared to be way up on the HG, perhaps surpassing some of these other teams - the IOWA teams w/ the Brands brothers (1992) and the Banach brothers (1983). I found another team w/ 5 champs, the 2005 OKST w/ the great Steve Mocco at 275. I didn't add all these teams to my spread sheet, but might do it some day when I get bored. But I'll stick to my earlier statement on MINN. 10 AAs is a great accomplishment, one that hasn't been repeated. But IMO, HG is the best barometer of the GOAT.
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ncaa ptsptsHG 8-1 ptsptsmargin of victoryptstotal
psu 2024172.55150*2.5100512.5
iowa 199717041502.556.539.5
iowa 19861583151473.5411
psu 2017146.52153**536.529
minn 2017138.5112911313
*8 wrestlers still competing
**Joseph and Hall lost the covid year
 
bdhof said:
ncaa ptsptsHG 8-1 ptsptsmargin of victoryptstotal
psu 2024172.55150*2.5100512.5
iowa 199717041502.556.539.5
iowa 19861583151473.5411
psu 2017146.52153**536.529
minn 2017138.5112911313
*8 wrestlers still competing
**Joseph and Hall lost the covid year
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Other teams to look at
2005Oklahoma StateJohn Smith153
1991IowaDan Gable157
1983IowaDan Gable155
 
OK, I'm on a roll and I can't stop. Added IOWA 1991 and 1983. Couldn't add OKST 2005 b/c their website lists their AAs but not their placements. I did add their NCAA pts and margin of victory but not the HG. Here's 7 teams w/o OKST.

ncaa ptsptsHG 8-1 ptsptsmargin of victoryptstotal
psu 2024172.57150*2.5100716.5
iowa 19861585151473.5615
iowa 19831553203753414
iowa 199717061502.556.5513.5
iowa 19911574167638.25313
psu 2017146.52153**536.529
minn 2017138.5112911313
okst 200515370
*8 wrestlers still competing
**Joseph and Hall lost the covid year
 
Here's one w/ OKST 2005 in it w/o HG category.

ncaa ptsptsHG 8-1 ptsptsmargin of victoryptstotal
psu 2024172.58150*100816
iowa 1986158615173.5713
iowa 1997170715056.5512
okst 200515337069
iowa 1991157516738.2538
iowa 198315542035348
psu 2017146.52153**36.524
minn 2017138.511291312
*8 wrestlers still competing
**Joseph and Hall lost the covid year
 
And here's my favorite category, the historical greatness HG.

HG 8-1 ptspts
iowa 19832037
iowa 19911676
psu 2017153**5
iowa 19861514
psu 2024150*2.5
iowa 19971502.5
minn 20171291
*8 wrestlers still competing
**Joseph and Hall lost the covid year

OKST not included
 
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Here's that IOWA team:

118 Tim Riley 3X AA 5th, 5th, 7th
126 Barry Davis 4X AA, 3X champ, 1st 1st, 1st, 7th
134 Jeff Kerber 2X AA 5th, 6th
142 Harlan Kistler 1X AA 3rd
150 Jim Heffernan 4X AA, 1X champ, 3X finalist, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th (from Ohio)
158 Jim Zalesky 4X AA, 3X champ, 1st, 1st, 1st, 5th
167 Rico Chiapparelli 3X AA, champ, 1st, 4th, 5th
177 Duane Goldman 4X AA, 4X finalist 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
190 Ed Banach 4X AA, 3X champ, 4X finalist 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd
275 Lou Banach 3X AA, 2X champ 1st, 1st, 3rd

That's a total of 7 guys who won NCAAs, 5 4X AAs, 3 3X AAs, 1 2X AA, and 1 1X AA (all 10 guys but 9 in 1983), and 2 OLY golds in there as well (Banach brothers). Barry Davis added an OLY silver and a World silver and bronze.

All of a sudden I'm still thinking about who is the GOAT. Perhaps this team.
 
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bdhof.... thank you for all of that data you have shared. It is quite remarkable to see just how good all the mentioned teams are/were. Again, I stand firmly on my idea of "team" due to the fact that what Minnesota did has never been done. So, IMHO they are the "best team". Now when another program can accomplish that and say, score more points then 'Sota,' I will gladly change my mind.

Side note, the teams of old, were they true teams? What I mean is that if you look at today's programs they are full of transfers, NIL kids and 5th, 6th or 7th year seniors. Those older teams weren't comprised of kids like this.
 
According to Tom Ryans twitter there needs to be an asterisk next to this PSU team. (*NIL INCLUDED)
IMG_3154.jpeg
 
Polarbear24 said:
According to Tom Ryans twitter there needs to be an asterisk next to this PSU team. (*NIL INCLUDED)View attachment 56994
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You can have asterisks all over the place. Do you need these in all sports or just wrestling? Here my wrestling asterisks:
*Guys who lost a covid year
*Guys who gained a covid year
*Changes in scoring
*Guys who transfer

As mentioned above somewhere, tOSU has had some transfers in recent years. Joey McKenna is perhaps the best example. When he transferred in tOSU had a lineup that almost brought home the NCAA title. McKenna took 3rd. NIL is the rule of the land now, whether you like it or not. Personally, I don't like it, but the NCAA doesn't care what I think. And this applies to all NCAA sports, not just wrestling. I do think that it's great that some college athletes are getting paid. Instead of griping, maybe Tom should take a look at some of these guys.
 
Ryan and Osu complaining about $ in college sports is 100% laughable.He is always whining.Cael wasn't tweeting PSU punted and gifted Tom his only trophy in 2015.
 
bdhof said:
You can have asterisks all over the place. Do you need these in all sports or just wrestling? Here my wrestling asterisks:
*Guys who lost a covid year
*Guys who gained a covid year
*Changes in scoring
*Guys who transfer

As mentioned above somewhere, tOSU has had some transfers in recent years. Joey McKenna is perhaps the best example. When he transferred in tOSU had a lineup that almost brought home the NCAA title. McKenna took 3rd. NIL is the rule of the land now, whether you like it or not. Personally, I don't like it, but the NCAA doesn't care what I think. And this applies to all NCAA sports, not just wrestling. I do think that it's great that some college athletes are getting paid. Instead of griping, maybe Tom should take a look at some of these guys.
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I am not defending or criticizing what Tom wrote, but I think last season was the first NIL year. So transfers before then were not induced by NIL. That may be all he is saying. I disagree with the asterisk comment because there are numerous things every year (injuries, bad calls, etc.) that could arguably point to an asterisk. I think the extra Covid year was a much greater influence than NIL on the team race. And you can't question that PSU succeeds in developing wrestlers more often than it fails. PSU probably has a higher batting average on development than most other programs. I think Iowa's is much, much lower. OSU, Missouri, and NC State have had some really good developmental results recently. But all also have misses.

I think Tom's strategy may be to sell that OSU will commit to try and develop wrestlers and not take NIL transfers over them. I assume he objected to being lumped in with Michigan and Iowa, who are using the NIL route to lure transfers.

IMO, as long as the rules are being obeyed, I have no issue with teams utilizing them to their advantage. Some programs (e.g., OSU) may chose another direction, but that's because they feel it will better lead them to success. Any path within the rules seems equally virtuous to me.
 
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Mr.wrsln2 said:
Ryan and Osu complaining about $ in college sports is 100% laughable.He is always whining.Cael wasn't tweeting PSU punted and gifted Tom his only trophy in 2015.
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I saw Coach Ryan on Flo today. His point on the asterisk is that today is different because the money is not equal across schools, as the ame number of scholarships (9.9) per school was back in his day. He acknowledged that OSU is near the top for NIL $$$ to use. I don't think it was sour grapes at all. And he didn't diminish Cael or Penn State in any way. He said that OSU needs to compete with them. He also said that he would use the TP to fill holes, but he did not think the holes in his projected lineup were as large as those in Iowa's and Michigan's projected lineups going into last season. His only pledge was to discuss each transfer candidate with his team first and try to preserve team chemistry.

Interesting interview for those interested.
 
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1$’s 2¢ said:
I saw Coach Ryan on Flo today. His point on the asterisk is that today is different because the money is not equal across schools, as 9.9 scholarships per school was back in his day. He acknowledge that OSU is near the top for NIL $$$ to use. I don't think it was sour grapes at all. And he didn't diminish Cael or Penn State in any way. He said that OSU needs to compete with them. He also said that he would use the TP to fill holes, but he did not think the holes in his projected lineup were as large as those in Iowa's and Michigan's projected lineups going into last season. His only pledge was to discuss each candidate with his team first and try to preserve team chemistry. Interesting interview for those interested.
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Other than saying an * was in place for 2024.And without a doubt you heard it on Flo.lol
 
Mr.wrsln2 said:
Other than saying an * was in place for 2024.And without a doubt you heard it on Flo.lol
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As I posted earlier, I personally do not agree with the asterisk comment, but also take no offense at it. Tom is right that the NIL world is different. Some teams (e.g., PSU, OSU, Iowa, etc.) have a lot more NIL fundraising capabilities than others. This is different than when all teams had 9.9 scholarships. Teams with more NIL will be able to poach smaller schools' proven wrestlers and to stockpile talent if wrestlers are paid handsomely to wait their turn. That's just fact and has already been shown.

It's neither good not bad; it just is.
 
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