Beacons of light and closing/consolidating of parishes

[Vincent and Regina]

I don't understand why you keep throwing out digs of me not attending Mass. I attend every single weekend. And the financial reports are so vague and don't really tell you much of anything.

There are Catholic schools not affiliated with any parish, so mass attendance doesn't impact those institutions at all. Elder being one of them, so try again. Every parish in the Archdiocese could shut down and Catholic schools would still exist. You don't seem to understand that.

So this isn't the 60th year since Vatican II ended? That must be New Math. And let me ask you again.....what fundamental changes has the Church instituted since then?

There's a reason Vatican II happened. The 60s were a time of radical new ideas and change and the Church realized that it had to adapt and change with the times. Well, society has evolved more rapidly each and every decade since the 60s, and the Church is just throwing their hands up wondering why people leaving.

I cannot help you don't know how to read a finical statement. My dig at not attending Mass are aimed at ?guy.

Yes Elder is affiliated with the parishes. It was started by the parishes and is owned by the Archdiocese who owns all the parishes. https://www.elderhs.org/about/mission-vision--history St X might still exist because they are run by the Jesuits. Moeller is owned by the Marianist, LaSalle is owned by Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools.

The biggest thing IMO that came out of Vatican II was that the Mass would be said in the native language instead of Latin. In my life time I have seen many changes. The first one I remember were that women were allowed to be servers. The Nicene Creed has also changed language.

The 1960's changes a lot. Racial and Sexual revolutions happened. Just because society has changed/evolved doesn't make it better.

 

[Vincent and Regina]

God is omnipresent and found everywhere..... so why do you need to go to a building with a priest, bishop, or pope to worship? The human aspect of Mass with the celebrant is of the utmost importance. That's a HUGE reason why Vatican II turned the priests to face towards the congregation and put the Mass into the languages spoken of the congregation. The Church realized the importance of the Human interaction between the congregation and the priests celebrating the Mass, so having a someone who isn't a human piece of garbage or just having someone that is relatable is really high on the priority list of people who wish to go to Mass or any church service in any other denomination. The Catholic Church teaches that the Priest is a mediator between God (all 3 forms) and man..... so yes, going to Church for a certain Priest makes a lot of sense. I want a good mediator between myself and the Devine, otherwise why go?

I agree, I church surfed for awhile in my 20s. When I go on vacation I just go to the closest church. I drive by 2 or 3 Catholic Churches when I go to Church on Sunday to go to the one I attend.

I go to church on the weekend because it is showing effort. Yes God is Omnipresent, but we must show effort since we know better.

 

[cincifbfan]

I cannot help you don't know how to read a finical statement.

I can read a financial statement just fine. Sorry that you don't question things like when it says "Church Expenses."

Yes Elder is affiliated with the parishes. It was started by the parishes and is owned by the Archdiocese who owns all the parishes. https://www.elderhs.org/about/mission-vision--history St X might still exist because they are run by the Jesuits. Moeller is owned by the Marianist, LaSalle is owned by Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools.

Thanks for the history lesson that I already knew. So what parishes is Elder affiliated with in 2024? What parishes are kicking in money to keep Elder open? Again, every single west side Church could close, and Elder would still exist. Elder doesn't need the Church, the Church needs Elder.

The first one I remember were that women were allowed to be servers. The Nicene Creed has also changed language.

So radical of the Church to allow female servers over 25 years ago. And the language changed in the Creed and "In your spirit" back in 2011 to reflect a more accurate translation from Latin..... not really adapting, but correcting poor translations.

The 1960's changes a lot. Racial and Sexual revolutions happened. Just because society has changed/evolved doesn't make it better.

Our society is wholeheartedly better than it was in the 60s, that's undeniable.

 

[EHS 2001]

The Archdiocese had over 200 parishes, I don't know what goes on in all of them.

And what was apparent to me from the meeting Schnurr and a few Archdiocesan leaders had at St. Ignatius after Drew was removed is that they have no idea what's going on either.

God is omnipresent and found everywhere..... so why do you need to go to a building with a priest, bishop, or pope to worship? The human aspect of Mass with the celebrant is of the utmost importance. That's a HUGE reason why Vatican II turned the priests to face towards the congregation and put the Mass into the languages spoken of the congregation. The Church realized the importance of the Human interaction between the congregation and the priests celebrating the Mass, so having a someone who isn't a human piece of garbage or just having someone that is relatable is really high on the priority list of people who wish to go to Mass or any church service in any other denomination. The Catholic Church teaches that the Priest is a mediator between God (all 3 forms) and man..... so yes, going to Church for a certain Priest makes a lot of sense. I want a good mediator between myself and the Devine, otherwise why go?

For anyone who is skipping Mass, you're missing out on the Eucharist which is "the source and summit of Christian life."

 

[cincifbfan]

I drive by 2 or 3 Catholic Churches when I go to Church on Sunday to go to the one I attend.

I have quite literally 10 Catholic Churches closer to my house than the one I attend, and the biggest reasons are the people in the congregation and Priests. So yes, the human element matters a great deal.

 

[cincifbfan]

And what was apparent to me from the meeting Schnurr and a few Archdiocesan leaders had at St. Ignatius after Drew was removed is that they have no idea what's going on either.

Archdiocese HR had no clue either. I had close friends that had kids at St. Max and pulled them from the school and stopped letting them serve Mass because of Drew's behavior. When he was moved to St. Ignatius, they rejoined the parish, and I asked my Mother in Law how they could move Drew with all the complaints and issues over at St. Max.......HR had no idea there was any issue at all.

 

[EHS 2001]

Archdiocese HR had no clue either. I had close friends that had kids at St. Max and pulled them from the school and stopped letting them serve Mass because of Drew's behavior. When he was moved to St. Ignatius, they rejoined the parish, and I asked my Mother in Law how they could move Drew with all the complaints and issues over at St. Max.......HR had no idea there was any issue at all.

High ranking people including Binzer knew and kept it a secret. By the way, that's not a conspiracy--the Archdiocese admitted it.

It was a replay of the worst of the bad old days but the excuse I was personally given at the meeting with St. Ignatius parishioners was when I mentioned that he'd worked and had contemporaneous complaints about his behavior at Elder and St. Jude in the 80s and 90s was, "He's the first priest ordained since 1986 that's had these allegations."

 

[cincifbfan]

High ranking people including Binzer knew and kept it a secret. By the way, that's not a conspiracy--the Archdiocese admitted it.

It was a replay of the worst of the bad old days but the excuse I was personally given at the meeting with St. Ignatius parishioners was when I mentioned that he'd worked and had contemporaneous complaints about his behavior at Elder and St. Jude in the 80s and 90s was, "He's the first priest ordained since 1986 that's had these allegations."

Oh, I know people knew. And all that sounds par for the course for the Archdiocese unfortunately.

 

[E82]

Let's try to be honest here. Most "Catholics" who do not attend Mass aren't skipping because of the priest sexual abuse scandals. They aren't going because they either don't care enough to go or because they've lost their faith.

What happened with Drew, Larger, Strittmater, etc was unforgivable. Those at the top of the Catholic leadership should have been sent packing. I know many fine priests who would do a much better job. But let's not pretend that's why churches are empty on Sunday.

I realize a number of folks who disagree with the Catholic Church have moved on to other religions like Crossroads and that's fine. That's their choice. Good for them.

Most Catholics who don't attend Mass simply don't want to. Many of them are looking for excuses as to why they don't go when in reality they are the reason they don't.

 

[Vincent and Regina]

I can read a financial statement just fine. Sorry that you don't question things like when it says "Church Expenses."

I don't need to know they bought a rheem of paper, or that the water bill was paid.

Thanks for the history lesson that I already knew. So what parishes is Elder affiliated with in 2024? What parishes are kicking in money to keep Elder open? Again, every single west side Church could close, and Elder would still exist. Elder doesn't need the Church, the Church needs Elder.

If you are a active parishioner at a parish like St Dominic, or Our Lady of Lourdes the parish pays a small part of the tuition, it is not much, but it is something. What you are failing to realize without the Church Elder is nothing.

Our society is wholeheartedly better than it was in the 60s, that's undeniable.

Really it is better and undeniable? Do you tell your kids come home when the street lights come on?

 

[cincifbfan]

I don't need to know they bought a rheem of paper, or that the water bill was paid.

You should need to know those things. Are they wasting thousands of dollars on paper and printing supplies on items that could be sent electronically? Is the water bill 4x higher than usual because there is a drippy faucet that nobody pays attention to for months or years? This is a huge problem right now, people are just blindly trusting that their money is being handled appropriately without giving it a second thought.

What you are failing to realize without the Church Elder is nothing.

Again, you are claiming things I never said. Originally, the Church was needed for Elder to be created. Now, in 2024, the archdiocese needs Elder, not the other way around.

Really it is better and undeniable?

Yes it is better and undeniable. Nobody is starving in the US unlike every previous generation. Good healthcare is more available than ever. People are more educated than at any point in history. We live in a world where we don't fear war on our soil. We live in a world where disease isn't wiping out entire cities. We live in a world where life expectancy is longer than ever due to all of our betterments to humanity.

Do you tell your kids come home when the street lights come on?

No I don't because we actually parent and watch our kids unlike previous generations who couldn't be bothered actually supervising their children. We are enjoying the most prosperous and safest time in humanity.

 

[cincifbfan]

Let's try to be honest here. Most "Catholics" who do not attend Mass aren't skipping because of the priest sexual abuse scandals. They aren't going because they either don't care enough to go or because they've lost their faith

So why have they lost their faith? Why don't they care? Why do those in the Catholic schools being taught the faith not bother to show up? These are the hard questions that need to be asked so changes can be made to give people a reason to come back.

 

[E82]

So why have they lost their faith? Why don't they care? Why do those in the Catholic schools being taught the faith not bother to show up? These are the hard questions that need to be asked so changes can be made to give people a reason to come back.

I don't have the answer to those questions. If I had to guess I'd say that a lot of people have become self centered and are more concerned with their next Facebook post than going to church.

It's not just Catholicism, church attendance is down among most religions. It's not like the Methodist, Baptist or Lutheran Church services have changed much over the past century. People just aren't going.

 

[Vincent and Regina]

You should need to know those things. Are they wasting thousands of dollars on paper and printing supplies on items that could be sent electronically? Is the water bill 4x higher than usual because there is a drippy faucet that nobody pays attention to for months or years? This is a huge problem right now, people are just blindly trusting that their money is being handled appropriately without giving it a second thought.

Again, you are claiming things I never said. Originally, the Church was needed for Elder to be created. Now, in 2024, the archdiocese needs Elder, not the other way around.

Yes it is better and undeniable. Nobody is starving in the US unlike every previous generation. Good healthcare is more available than ever. People are more educated than at any point in history. We live in a world where we don't fear war on our soil. We live in a world where disease isn't wiping out entire cities. We live in a world where life expectancy is longer than ever due to all of our betterments to humanity.

No I don't because we actually parent and watch our kids unlike previous generations who couldn't be bothered actually supervising their children. We are enjoying the most prosperous and safest time in humanity.

 

[cincifbfan]

View attachment 55206

The fact that you are confused by my post says everything, because there is absolutely nothing in what I wrote that was even remotely confusing.

 

[Vincent and Regina]

You should need to know those things. Are they wasting thousands of dollars on paper and printing supplies on items that could be sent electronically? Is the water bill 4x higher than usual because there is a drippy faucet that nobody pays attention to for months or years? This is a huge problem right now, people are just blindly trusting that their money is being handled appropriately without giving it a second thought.

If you want to audit the church so much get a job in the church office. If you care about a drippy faucet learn a trade and volunteer to fix it. Looking over a financial statement doesn't help anything. People are probably too busy looking over the financial statements to go an fix the faulty faucet.

Again, you are claiming things I never said. Originally, the Church was needed for Elder to be created. Now, in 2024, the archdiocese needs Elder, not the other way around.

From the Elder Website.

Our mission is to develop young men to strive for Altiora by serving God and others, embracing and living the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, while pursuing academic excellence.

Elder High School is part of the church, without the church it has no need. Kids can go to Oak Hills, West Hi, or Taylor. You can claim Elder will survive without the church, but you are wrong.

Yes it is better and undeniable. Nobody is starving in the US unlike every previous generation. Good healthcare is more available than ever. People are more educated than at any point in history. We live in a world where we don't fear war on our soil. We live in a world where disease isn't wiping out entire cities. We live in a world where life expectancy is longer than ever due to all of our betterments to humanity.

Maybe get outside of Union. Look at Southeastern Kentucky, Look at Southeastern Ohio or all over Appalachia. Hopefully you never have anyone that has a serious medical issue, but the healthcare in this country sometimes requires long waits. Trust me I know I have a wife with breast cancer and a dad with dementia.

No I don't because we actually parent and watch our kids unlike previous generations who couldn't be bothered actually supervising their children. We are enjoying the most prosperous and safest time in humanity.

I parent my kids. I would never let them run around Price Hill like my parents did to me. Over the Rhine is just as bad. The world is not as safe as it was in the 1950 or 60's. It isn't as safe as the 80's or 90's. Saying come home when the street lights come on is a way of saying the neighborhoods are safe. You can't tell me Price Hill, Avondale, Pleasant Ridge or The West End are safe places.

I am not confused, I just can't believe you are that ignorant.

 

[ogealbhain]

I don't have the answer to those questions. If I had to guess I'd say that a lot of people have become self centered and are more concerned with their next Facebook post than going to church.

It's not just Catholicism, church attendance is down among most religions. It's not like the Methodist, Baptist or Lutheran Church services have changed much over the past century. People just aren't going.

 

[Purplemojo]

I attend St. Dominic and have never heard anyone wish that St. William would close. In fact, most people like myself believe it is one of the most beautiful churches in Cincinnati.

BS: Within 300 yards of St. William? "Here to Stay"? What's the implication? Some won't be "here to stay"? Like the church within view of the billboard? This is the third year for this billboard. It encourages "white flight" from St. William, despite the diverse group in the picture. The effort is deliberate and effective.

Quite frankly, I believe this is disgusting and unchristian. These are not high schools with no connection to a faith community. This is an intentional effort to harm a catholic faith community for the benefit of another. I have no problem with Elder and LaSalle competing for students, but trying to raid the student body of a neighboring parish? Disgusting.

 

[1965 Panther]

BS: Within 300 yards of St. William? "Here to Stay"? What's the implication? Some won't be "here to stay"? Like the church within view of the billboard? This is the third year for this billboard. It encourages "white flight" from St. William, despite the diverse group in the picture. This is the third year for this billboard. The effort is deliberate and effective.

Quite frankly, I believe this is disgusting and unchristian. These are not high schools with no connection to a faith community. This is an intentional effort to harm a catholic faith community for the benefit of another. I have no problem with Elder and LaSalle competing for students, but trying to raid the student body of a neighboring parish? Disgusting.

Yes. This is in bad taste. I’m surprised at St Dominic

 

[St.X fan2]

I don't have the answer to those questions. If I had to guess I'd say that a lot of people have become self centered and are more concerned with their next Facebook post than going to church.

It's not just Catholicism, church attendance is down among most religions. It's not like the Methodist, Baptist or Lutheran Church services have changed much over the past century. People just aren't going.

There have been sex abuse scandals in Protestant denominations too and I agree with you that it isn't the primary reason that numbers are dipping for attendance at Christian churches. The world has become more secularized as people are becoming focused on work, sports, entertainment, social functions, social media, and material goods. Another reason is poor catechesis and some kids skip going to church because their parents do not value religion. The reason to go to Mass is to worship God and receive the Eucharist which is how we participate in the New Covenant.

 

[E82]

There have been sex abuse scandals in Protestant denominations too and I agree with you that it isn't the primary reason that numbers are dipping for attendance at Christian churches. The world has become more secularized as people are becoming focused on work, sports, entertainment, social functions, social media, and material goods. Another reason is poor catechesis and some kids skip going to church because their parents do not value religion. The reason to go to Mass is to worship God and receive the Eucharist which is how we participate in the New Covenant.

Same with Baptists. I read a report once that the highest rate of sexual abuse is among Baptist Ministers, and most of them are married.

My issue with Catholic leadership is they knew they had a problem and they made no attempt to rid themselves of the perverts, nor did they try to implement any safeguards to keep pedophiles out of the seminary.

 

[ogealbhain]

Same with Baptists. I read a report once that the highest rate of sexual abuse is among Baptist Ministers, and most of them are married.

My issue with Catholic leadership is they knew they had a problem and they made no attempt to rid themselves of the perverts, nor did they try to implement any safeguards to keep pedophiles out of the seminary.

That wasn't just the Catholic church...Boy Scouts, too...and based on data I've seen years ago, the problem is worse in schools (public schools specifically) but just like the church and scouts, it's covered up (plus they're not a monolithic entity like the Church or Scouts).

 

[ElderHockeyDad]

BS: Within 300 yards of St. William? "Here to Stay"? What's the implication? Some won't be "here to stay"? Like the church within view of the billboard? This is the third year for this billboard. It encourages "white flight" from St. William, despite the diverse group in the picture. The effort is deliberate and effective.

Quite frankly, I believe this is disgusting and unchristian. These are not high schools with no connection to a faith community. This is an intentional effort to harm a catholic faith community for the benefit of another. I have no problem with Elder and LaSalle competing for students, but trying to raid the student body of a neighboring parish? Disgusting.

Your original comment was "I am sure there are some narrowminded members of St. Dominic who would love to see St. William, close up". My reply was "I attend St. Dominic and have never heard anyone wish that St. William would close.". I stand by that statement. St. William church or school closing would not benefit St. Dominic parish. My suggestion for St. William would be to purchase that billboard for next year and advertise their school. As far as "white flight" to St. Dominic, that school is far from being "white".
I will say that the school is being run by what some would consider outsiders and some poor decisions are being made.

 

[Purplemojo]

Your original comment was "I am sure there are some narrowminded members of St. Dominic who would love to see St. William, close up". My reply was "I attend St. Dominic and have never heard anyone wish that St. William would close.". I stand by that statement. St. William church or school closing would not benefit St. Dominic parish. My suggestion for St. William would be to purchase that billboard for next year and advertise their school. As far as "white flight" to St. Dominic, that school is far from being "white".
I will say that the school is being run by what some would consider outsiders and some poor decisions are being made.

So, the plan for that billboard was not to attract "acceptable" grade school kids from that neighborhood, at the very doorstep of St. William. Oh. If that wasn't the reason I just cant understand what the purpose might be. Maybe you could explain it. Your response doesn't make sense and indicates a soft racism.

 

[PantherVOR]

BS: Within 300 yards of St. William? "Here to Stay"? What's the implication? Some won't be "here to stay"? Like the church within view of the billboard? This is the third year for this billboard. It encourages "white flight" from St. William, despite the diverse group in the picture. The effort is deliberate and effective.

Quite frankly, I believe this is disgusting and unchristian. These are not high schools with no connection to a faith community. This is an intentional effort to harm a catholic faith community for the benefit of another. I have no problem with Elder and LaSalle competing for students, but trying to raid the student body of a neighboring parish? Disgusting.

I have to say I feel like that billboard is inappropriate in it's placement and its message in light of what is happening with Beacons of Light. There are many difficult decisions being made by the many families of parishes on the Westside, these families should not be feeding off of neighboring parishes to bolster their positions. I have to say I'm very surprised that Fr Ben approved the message and placement and I'm sure a spend like this doesn't happen without his approval. There must be more to this story that I have not heard but I can't imagine anything that could make this billboard a good idea.

To be clear the message would be fine if the billboard was located that close to St. Dominic, it's the placement AND the message that I think is inappropriate.

 

[PantherVOR]

One more thing, I don't see how the placement or message encourages "white flight" or is racist in any way. That's just Mojo going overboard as he often does in these types of discussions.

 

[IKS]

I have to say I feel like that billboard is inappropriate in it's placement and its message in light of what is happening with Beacons of Light. There are many difficult decisions being made by the many families of parishes on the Westside, these families should not be feeding off of neighboring parishes to bolster their positions. I have to say I'm very surprised that Fr Ben approved the message and placement and I'm sure a spend like this doesn't happen without his approval. There must be more to this story that I have not heard but I can't imagine anything that could make this billboard a good idea.

To be clear the message would be fine if the billboard was located that close to St. Dominic, it's the placement AND the message that I think is inappropriate.

That billboard is located on one of the 3 major arteries of commuter traffic to downtown Cincinnati from the westside. The other 2 arteries have billboards also (Glenway and River road being the others). In the past, Victory has used all three. The billboard companies have placed these billboards on these arteries knowing the traffic count from the commuters in delhi and western hills is high. There is no effort to go after the folks attending St William. It's directed at those in the surrounding area that travel those arteries frequently. If you've noticed, St. Dominic's social media activity is way up also (similar to Victory, Seton and more recently, Elder). The theory is to tell a good story if you have one. All the parishes have good stories. They need to step up their communication of those stories to attract folks that may appreciate the good things they do. Lord knows, every misstep is communicated 100 fold.

 

[PantherVOR]

That billboard is located on one of the 3 major arteries of commuter traffic to downtown Cincinnati from the westside. The other 2 arteries have billboards also (Glenway and River road being the others). In the past, Victory has used all three. The billboard companies have placed these billboards on these arteries knowing the traffic count from the commuters in delhi and western hills is high. There is no effort to go after the folks attending St William. It's directed at those in the surrounding area that travel those arteries frequently. If you've noticed, St. Dominic's social media activity is way up also (similar to Victory, Seton and more recently, Elder). The theory is to tell a good story if you have one. All the parishes have good stories. They need to step up their communication of those stories to attract folks that may appreciate the good things they do. Lord knows, every misstep is communicated 100 fold.

I figured this was going to be the response of someone in the know but quite frankly I don’t buy it. If the theme is tell a good story then tell a good story, let’s not play on the fears of Beacons of Light related parish/school closures to try to steer parents to our product. We need to be above that as a faith based institution.

I don’t know how long these billboard contracts last, hopefully at least the message can change if St Dominic intends to continue to use this location when it comes time to renew. Tell the good story you have to tell and stop playing on the fears of parish school closings.

And I absolutely understand that hindsight is 20/20. It’s easy to second guess something like this. It probably seemed like a great message at the time. Hopefully when the time comes to renew hindsight can be used to correct what seems to be an inappropriately timed and placed message.

 

[IKS]

I figured this was going to be the response of someone in the know but quite frankly I don’t buy it. If the theme is tell a good story then tell a good story, let’s not play on the fears of Beacons of Light related parish/school closures to try to steer parents to our product. We need to be above that as a faith based institution.

I don’t know how long these billboard contracts last, hopefully at least the message can change if St Dominic intends to continue to use this location when it comes time to renew. Tell the good story you have to tell and stop playing on the fears of parish school closings.

And I absolutely understand that hindsight is 20/20. It’s easy to second guess something like this. It probably seemed like a great message at the time. Hopefully when the time comes to renew hindsight can be used to correct what seems to be an inappropriately timed and placed message.

This statement was included due to early-on concerns within the St. Dominic parish family regarding the family's ability to support 2 schools. Of particular concern was the future of St. Dominic school since its enrollment lagged Victory's. This concern and subsequent rumors were circulating in the target community of greater Delhi. This statement shows the conscious commitment of the parish family to support both schools. The statement is not preying on any other school/parish/family outside the St. Dominic family of parishes. I understand the misinterpretation by some, but it is a critical point within the parish family and Delhi.

 

[THEONLYBOSS]

It's not good to see divisions between parishes and parishioners.
It is important for Christian believers of all denominations and ethnicities to be united at this time because the atheists in the weaponized federal government have targeted us as Christian Nationalists, dangerous to American democracy

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