Arm injuries
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Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
This maybe belongs in the MLB forum, but it is amazing how pitchers in the old days would pitch complete games or 7 plus innings almost every game and had much fewer arm injuries than today, what changed? Back in the seventies pitchers had a combo of 4 pitches fastball, curve, slider, and change up. With 70 - 80 % plus of those pitches being fastballs and pitchers back than could throw high heat inside to back the batter off the plate can't do that today so more pitchers today throw more curves and sliders thus more are injuries not rocket science.
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AllSports12
Moderator
Maximum effort on every fastball and spin rate focus on every breaking pitch are what Dr. James Andrews (the expert) blames for the professional pitcher injuries.
Overuse is still the major reason for young arms. However, the radar gun is another issue that is causing problems. Add those two together and you have this for a 15yr old.....
Way too young
AllSports12
Moderator
Happening with 13 yr olds as well.
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
Again, why was this not as big of an issue 30 - 50 years ago. MLB starting pitchers went 7 plus innings regularly and in HS in the seventies I don't
believe there was a pitch count or innings limit. Plus in the summer there was ACME and Legion baseball. I do agree too many breaking balls.
AllSports12
Moderator
Because now, they try to top out on the gun on every fastball they throw and do everything they can to create maximum spin on the breaking balls. This creates a tremendous amount of stress on the elbow. (a joint that simply is not conducive to throwing a baseball to begin with)
The guys back in the day did not employ this pitching strategy. Guys like Nolan Ryan who could throw it 100+ on every pitch, didn't throw it on every pitch..... in fact, they rarely threw it. Instead, they actually pitched.
Teams didn't play as many games in the summer as they do now. Plus the fact that idiot parents and coaches who are enamored with the radar gun ignore the risk they are placing on their son's arms.
I don't believe pitchers threw as hard 30-50 years ago. The harder you throw the more stress on the arm.
Thavoice
Well-known member
As a late 80s and early 90s HS kid in a top program I don't think we ever saw a radar gun.
We played 60-70 games from the start of spring ball through late July and I would be hard pressed to think many HS kids played more during that time frame.
Arm injuries were non existent following the ole 10 innings in 3 days rule but then again , we had extremely good and knowledgeable coaches who knew how to use a pitching staff and did see some coaches overextended a pitch count.
I also believe we developed and used more pitching than what I see.nowadaays.
I agree the gun, trying to max out and how these games are played are the issue with teams packing the games in these freaking tournaments.
The pitch count dilemma.....seen so many coaches throw a kid 3 times in a weekend and stopping at the limit so he can pitch more days.
That is garbage.
I would rather a kid throw his 70-100.or so in a one shot deal, zof course dependant on his ability and work ups, etc, than throw in 3 games over 3-4 days and staying at the pitch limit on the first 2....
Also....with this travel ball rhe coaches are.not vested in those kids past that season. They don't see the kid around town, see his family at the grocery or restaurant or other school event so they don't ever have to face the music when they abuse an arm.
Coaches just have to be smarter...don't throw the kidd as much.
Had a dad this Saturday who was complaining hus son three 125 in a JV, or.a frosh game
. Just not. Smart
And parents can be to blame by allowing it.
BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
This is it. As father of a college pitcher who has never had arm problems but still chases velo (knock on wood), there is a way to train safely to reach one's maximum potential. But having said that, I am telling you that most pitchers will trade the zipper for 90 mph every single day.
AllSports12
Moderator
Throwing a baseball is one of the most unnatural acts one can place on any joint of the human body. The stress placed on the elbow is mind boggling..... ( I used to have a slow-motion HD video that was used in a presentation. I'll try to dig it up...... it's eve opening)
Add this to the fact that the arms of young athletes are still developing into their 20's and you end up with the results that we now see today in the professional and youth ranks.
Add this to the fact that the arms of young athletes are still developing into their 20's and you end up with the results that we now see today in the professional and youth ranks.
*67
Well-known member
Pitchers today are taught to deliver the ball with an "inverted W" to try to increase velocity and spin rate. Look at the way Nolan Ryan delivered the ball compared to Stephen Strasburg. Now think about the extra stress on Stasburg's arm compared to Nolan's. That's where injuries happen.
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93 red ls
Well-known member
90% of this falls back on coaches (or lack there of)
it starts at the 8-9-10 year old levels and works its way up to 13-14-15 / HS
at these younger ages coaches/teams have this "win at all costs" mentality. Rather than taking the time to develop arms , teach proper mechanics and DEVELOP pitching, they take the kids who can throw hard and ride their backs. this generally continues through out their youth/select/travel days until they get to the HS level. SOME of the kids are lucky enough that when they get to HS they get coaching that knows what they are doing and can work the kinks out and they have enough pitching where the kids aren't getting over worked.
this is my sons 1st year of HS baseball. He is a freshmen and pitches. He isn't a fire baller (left handed smaller dude)
His fast ball is prolly in the low mid 60's
locates the ball pretty well.
has a few breaking balls that help miss barrels.
His line as a freshmen on JV
Pitched in 9 games (21 innings total) 2-0 19ER 18 k's 13BB
Me as a parent (and coach that helped coach his summer ball teams) made sure he was going to be ready to help the HS team at what ever his role was going to be. He doesn't throw 80's but he throws a lot of strikes and is very good at hitting spots. We worked in the off season leading up to this year on building up arm strength (he does use a pitching coach and has for the past 3 years) making sure he was going to be ready for this year! My son has thrown A LOT of baseball the past few summers and we haven't had a single arm issue. BUT we scrapped spin/max effort for location control and mechanics. He has been a late bloomer for sure BUT is taking the proper steps in assuring his arm is going to be healthy and when the time comes his mechanics hopefully will keep him in line for a decent run on the varsity team if he is lucky enough.
as its been said up top , parents are as much to blame at all the arm issues as the coaches.
it starts at the 8-9-10 year old levels and works its way up to 13-14-15 / HS
at these younger ages coaches/teams have this "win at all costs" mentality. Rather than taking the time to develop arms , teach proper mechanics and DEVELOP pitching, they take the kids who can throw hard and ride their backs. this generally continues through out their youth/select/travel days until they get to the HS level. SOME of the kids are lucky enough that when they get to HS they get coaching that knows what they are doing and can work the kinks out and they have enough pitching where the kids aren't getting over worked.
this is my sons 1st year of HS baseball. He is a freshmen and pitches. He isn't a fire baller (left handed smaller dude)
His fast ball is prolly in the low mid 60's
locates the ball pretty well.
has a few breaking balls that help miss barrels.
His line as a freshmen on JV
Pitched in 9 games (21 innings total) 2-0 19ER 18 k's 13BB
Me as a parent (and coach that helped coach his summer ball teams) made sure he was going to be ready to help the HS team at what ever his role was going to be. He doesn't throw 80's but he throws a lot of strikes and is very good at hitting spots. We worked in the off season leading up to this year on building up arm strength (he does use a pitching coach and has for the past 3 years) making sure he was going to be ready for this year! My son has thrown A LOT of baseball the past few summers and we haven't had a single arm issue. BUT we scrapped spin/max effort for location control and mechanics. He has been a late bloomer for sure BUT is taking the proper steps in assuring his arm is going to be healthy and when the time comes his mechanics hopefully will keep him in line for a decent run on the varsity team if he is lucky enough.
as its been said up top , parents are as much to blame at all the arm issues as the coaches.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
I do think a lot of these issues are a combination of overuse and learning when to throw full power vs when to be more finesse.
Peak
Member
My son is very similar to yours. Senior now, and didn't really hit a growth spurt until Summer going into his Sr year. His velocity has been "average" compared to his peers who grew much faster/sooner than him. He's been focused on accuracy, mechanics and pitch selection, letting velocity grow naturally. His summer coaches recognized this and gave him plenty of reps as a starter, which helped him develop into a good pitcher. His HS team just saw a small kid with "average" velocity and put him on the bench, rarely using him as a reliver. He watched as his peers had all sorts of arm injuries and surgeries. He just kept plugging along, focusing on what he could, and using his natural growth and strength training to increase velocity. He throws mid 80s now and was recruited and committed to a D1 school. He (We) could've chased the velocity training and pushed it more, but I'm glad he (we) didn't do that. He trusted the process and he's earned/learned from it. His college coach saw the potential and said we can add muscle and velocity - but it was his control, sound mechanics, and pitch selection that made him stand out from the fireballers. The fact that he can go 2-3 times through a lineup and keep a batter guessing is what the college coach appreciated most.
He has teammates whose parents chase velo and want that recognition by PBR and the social community. These are the same guys who had tommy john surgery, or some elbow surgery. The ones who threw out their arms when they were 13, 14, 15 years old. One of his teammates chased it when he was 14 (freshman) and had an arm injury that summer. He had to take two years off before his arm was well enough to pitch again. Rough time out there.
14Red
Well-known member
This is a debate that will likely never end. A couple of things to keep in mind.
There has always been a fair number of arm injuries for baseball pitchers. Again most of us know a kid or two who never made it to high school because they "threw their arm out" in little league. So some people decided to do something about it and developed innings limitations for pitchers. My first recollection of this was basically you could throw 10 innings in any 3 day span. To me that seemed to work, although you still had some kids that would still hurt their arms. So not too many years ago, it was decided to develop pitch counts, and only allow a kid to throw so many pitches in a day, and over the span of multiple days. Unfortunately, this may have not been the right way to go, because we still have injuries.
No my opinion is that the issue has more to do with kids not throwing enough, not throwing too much. We've taken away the simple training of throwing to get ready to throw. I always use the example of a marathon runner. How does a runner get ready to run a marathon? By running. You have to put in X number of miles in the days / weeks leading up to the marathon. For some reason we feel that pitchers can best get ready to pitch by not pitching.
I also feel the "max effort" is a contributor as well. You simply can't throw as hard as you can every pitch or you will break down.
- from the time kids start baseball, there is a fascination with the fastball. Throw as hard as you can.
- College coaches give scholarships to kids who throw hard, not necessarily to those who can pitch
- Pro scouts look at velocity as the #1 reason to follow a kid - can't teach a 100 MPH fastball
There has always been a fair number of arm injuries for baseball pitchers. Again most of us know a kid or two who never made it to high school because they "threw their arm out" in little league. So some people decided to do something about it and developed innings limitations for pitchers. My first recollection of this was basically you could throw 10 innings in any 3 day span. To me that seemed to work, although you still had some kids that would still hurt their arms. So not too many years ago, it was decided to develop pitch counts, and only allow a kid to throw so many pitches in a day, and over the span of multiple days. Unfortunately, this may have not been the right way to go, because we still have injuries.
No my opinion is that the issue has more to do with kids not throwing enough, not throwing too much. We've taken away the simple training of throwing to get ready to throw. I always use the example of a marathon runner. How does a runner get ready to run a marathon? By running. You have to put in X number of miles in the days / weeks leading up to the marathon. For some reason we feel that pitchers can best get ready to pitch by not pitching.
I also feel the "max effort" is a contributor as well. You simply can't throw as hard as you can every pitch or you will break down.
Peak
Member
Definitely agree with the more throwing aspect. That's where the southern states have a bit of an advantage over the northern states. But you have to find time to throw, even if it's a long toss session every day.
Pitch counts work, and it's best to find a coach (especially summer) that is mindful of how he uses pitchers. My son's Travel Coach threw out his arm in College due to overuse/strain and not taking care of it. He said he would never use overuse a player just to win a trophy or a ring. Good guy who kept a solid team together from 8u through 14u, and then a solid core stayed together going into their Sr season with a new coach. Good coaches are hard to find. I went to my nieces coach pitch game last night (5-6u), and after a 100 min game, had a 20min post game speech about how they aren't listening and following through with what they practiced. No doubt they didn't listen! They're five with a small attention span. Coach lost them completely, but you'd think he was talking to a bunch of 12-13 year olds.
The other part of the equation is that technology is just so much better today than it was when I was younger. You can't teach velocity, but you can teach proper mechanics and continuously tweak grips, arm movement, foot placement and other things to the Nth degree to get every bit of velo out of a kid. They still need to have some of that raw talent and drive to want to be a pitcher, but the way technology is used definitely helps them get closer.
Pitch counts work, and it's best to find a coach (especially summer) that is mindful of how he uses pitchers. My son's Travel Coach threw out his arm in College due to overuse/strain and not taking care of it. He said he would never use overuse a player just to win a trophy or a ring. Good guy who kept a solid team together from 8u through 14u, and then a solid core stayed together going into their Sr season with a new coach. Good coaches are hard to find. I went to my nieces coach pitch game last night (5-6u), and after a 100 min game, had a 20min post game speech about how they aren't listening and following through with what they practiced. No doubt they didn't listen! They're five with a small attention span. Coach lost them completely, but you'd think he was talking to a bunch of 12-13 year olds.
The other part of the equation is that technology is just so much better today than it was when I was younger. You can't teach velocity, but you can teach proper mechanics and continuously tweak grips, arm movement, foot placement and other things to the Nth degree to get every bit of velo out of a kid. They still need to have some of that raw talent and drive to want to be a pitcher, but the way technology is used definitely helps them get closer.
14Red
Well-known member
I think the with the southern states, it may be a kind of a double edged sword, especially with the youth leagues. Because we have cold weather up here, it forces kids to stop and get away from baseball. I think that's GREAT! Especially if they play a winter sport that has them running, like basketball. My feeling is your arm is only as good as your legs are, and I feel too many pitchers these days are in poor leg condition, and it then affects their arms. On days not throwing, pitchers should be running, running, running. Sprints, distance doesn't matter, just run.
I know the coaches get alot of grief, and while many parents don't want to infringe on the coach player relationship, with pitchers it's imperative that the parent/ player/ coach have constant communication on what's going on, especially if they play travel ball. And there is a difference between a sore arm and a tired arm. If you throw 100 pitches today, you WILL be sore tomorrow, even if you are in good shape. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to be shut down. Soreness in one thing, achy is another. If you have an ache in your elbow / shoulder that's persistent, THEN it's time to take a look.
I don't mind technology, but like jump shots and swings as a batter, every person is different. As long as the person isn't really making any major mechanical flaws, I think you let a kid throw what ever is comfortable. Heck you watch these guys on the major league level and you have 10 pitchers and 10 different motions and releases.
I coached my daughter's softball team when they were 12-13 year olds and their attention span may be just a few seconds more than the 5-6 year olds!
If some guy or gal wants to volunteer and put in the time to coach, I'm not going to criticize them. Normally I was that guy anyway and for the most part, I had great parents to deal with. I think travel ball stokes up the expectations because some of these parents are paying big time money for that spot on the team and as we know, expectations is a big word in more ways than one.
Baseballmom13
Member
Pitch clock is also causing problems
BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
It is really not an either/or proposition. You can train (pitching specific weight training exercises) safely and focus on mechanics and location and pitch ability. Having said this, I have had conversations with pitching coaches, college managers and other former professional pitchers (minors) asking if having a healthy arm is a positive attribute for a prospect and the answer, that it does not matter. So, until healthy arms matter, risks are going to be taken
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AllSports12
Moderator
Too soon to tell if there is a connection
Baseballmom13
Member
Some of the big slow guys already having problems. Obviously, not going to affect the quick ones as much. Think of someone like CC Sabathia
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