Seven Divisions Won't Change This Problem

 
Dave’s pivot from acting like an endlessly annoying lib over a mascot (until it started to screw with his money making and real life reputation) to thinking of the most trivial and mindless criticisms on a generally popular tournament transformation is…

…what you would expect out of a vulture who doesn’t actually follow the topic of high school sports that they use to supplement their SS income.
 
Ohio needs some type of relegation system, that moves teams up and down by success. If you win the D5 State title you should move up, if you make it to State two years in a row move up. Use some type of RPI rating move the top 5 up and bottom 5 down. There has to be a way to level the field!
 
Ohio needs some type of relegation system, that moves teams up and down by success. If you win the D5 State title you should move up, if you make it to State two years in a row move up. Use some type of RPI rating move the top 5 up and bottom 5 down. There has to be a way to level the field!
Agreed. I also think that teams should be rewarded for moving up...better game times, nicer facilities for tournaments, more coverage. The new Division 7 should not be the smallest schools in the state, it should be the least competitive and they should be working their way into being more competitive. No one should want to be in Division 7.

We are de-incentivizing success.
 
Richmond Heights will be affected...I'm guessing they'll be D5 or D6 next year.
They will be d6 , unless There CB numbers have jumped quite a bit, which they should have,I still think if you win two state titles in a row, that following year you should be bump up two divisions the following year and be there for for two years two years before you can drop down to where you should be, this is Columbus Wherle all over again back in the late 80's early 90's, until they finally closed there doors
 
Man no matter what I just keep coming back to the thought that 7 divisions/champions is just absolute overkill. 5 seems like it would have been a good number. Mostly disappointed in how the states final 4s will likely go not having all the semi-final games in each division at the same site over the same weekend. But oh well, I will just enjoy this last 4 division final 4 weekend as it seems like it may be one of the best ones at UD yet.
 
Man no matter what I just keep coming back to the thought that 7 divisions/champions is just absolute overkill. 5 seems like it would have been a good number. Mostly disappointed in how the states final 4s will likely go not having all the semi-final games in each division at the same site over the same weekend. But oh well, I will just enjoy this last 4 division final 4 weekend as it seems like it may be one of the best ones at UD yet.
completely agree on the overkill comment and enjoying this weekend
 
Agreed. I also think that teams should be rewarded for moving up...better game times, nicer facilities for tournaments, more coverage. The new Division 7 should not be the smallest schools in the state, it should be the least competitive and they should be working their way into being more competitive. No one should want to be in Division 7.
No disrespect, my man, but this is such a disagreeable take.

there is no point in a league, like the SCAL (one of the best small school leagues in the state) getting splintered across multiple divisions. In that hypothetical you could have Russia round 1 vs Piqua and Troy, Botkins round 1 vs Brookville and Greeneview but still have Jackson Center and Ft Loramie against the usual foes in District play. Four programs of roughly the same caliber in a given sport, they’re the same size (very small) and all close to each other… but in this idea it’s crafting vastly different postseason pathways to no useful end. Say that Russia sweeps Ft Loramie in hoops by a combined 10 points — the Raiders get nerfed by a better and much larger Troy in the first round while FL goes on to win the state title (and Russia is also a smaller school than Loramie.) What’s the point, then?

I also wish we’d stay away from the “no one wants to be D7” rhetoric to begin with. It’s irresponsible and against the intents of why we have high school sports, and talk about it. You don’t find many “one sport only” kids at schools with D7 enrollment, so why are we giving the division reputation a hard time?
 
No disrespect, my man, but this is such a disagreeable take.

there is no point in a league, like the SCAL (one of the best small school leagues in the state) getting splintered across multiple divisions. In that hypothetical you could have Russia round 1 vs Piqua and Troy, Botkins round 1 vs Brookville and Greeneview but still have Jackson Center and Ft Loramie against the usual foes in District play. Four programs of roughly the same caliber in a given sport, they’re the same size (very small) and all close to each other… but in this idea it’s crafting vastly different postseason pathways to no useful end. Say that Russia sweeps Ft Loramie in hoops by a combined 10 points — the Raiders get nerfed by a better and much larger Troy in the first round while FL goes on to win the state title (and Russia is also a smaller school than Loramie.) What’s the point, then?

I also wish we’d stay away from the “no one wants to be D7” rhetoric to begin with. It’s irresponsible and against the intents of why we have high school sports, and talk about it. You don’t find many “one sport only” kids at schools with D7 enrollment, so why are we giving the division reputation a hard time?
I think you are getting caught up in labels.

Instead of D7, we'll call it "non-qualifiers".

Schools that have not fielded competitive teams in a long time from all 4 current divisions. This could be for all sports. These schools would work hard to compete against like opponents without having to worry about getting waxed by an average team. I watch it in alot of sports. It is not good for the OHSAA as a whole. With baseball and softball season starting now, I would rather a school that frequently has 10 novice players drop down to the non-qualifiers and work toward building their program rather than get bludgeoned by 20-30 runs.

Expanding the divisions is the perfect time to make this change. No small school would be hurt by this change. In fact, the path is even easier now for the small schools with less teams in each division. Neither Fort Loramie nor Russia would have to worry about playing Troy as Troy is in a much larger division.

I'm hoping you will look at this from a different perspective and see how demoralizing it is for some schools. Without naming them, these schools need a major overhaul to be competitive. Being destroyed every game because their enrollment happens to be fairly large while their skill set in a sport is extremely low.
 
Nothing like kicking those small schools and demeaning them due to lack of school size. Wow. I've heard it all now.
 
Man no matter what I just keep coming back to the thought that 7 divisions/champions is just absolute overkill.
Agreed. I'm not a fan of expanding from 4 to 7. It should have been a gradual change like football. To do it in one year is overkill.
 
Nothing like kicking those small schools and demeaning them due to lack of school size. Wow. I've heard it all now.
No one is "kicking" small schools. My suggestion is trying to help large, medium, and small schools that cannot field competitive teams in all sports. Take a minute to look at scores across all sports and you will see schools competing in D1 and D2 that are drilled every year for the simple reason they have alot of kids roaming the halls. It is silly.
 
No one is "kicking" small schools. My suggestion is trying to help large, medium, and small schools that cannot field competitive teams in all sports. Take a minute to look at scores across all sports and you will see schools competing in D1 and D2 that are drilled every year for the simple reason they have alot of kids roaming the halls. It is silly.
You could say that for all divisions, not just DI and DII. Look at MSML, then look at Covington. But you are right. There are a lot of boys roaming Covington's hallways that don't play football. But at MSML, there are few that roam that are not on the Football team.
 
Covington and MSML would never come up in a conversation about schools that can't compete.

What I mentioned above was schools that struggle to field teams and when they do, they are not competitive. These are the schools that are ranked last in their district every year. The games that people write articles about when the score is lopsided. The game where mercy rules do not solve the issue. There are certain schools in our state that struggle to field teams in particular sports and are nothing more than sacrificial lambs in the tournament.

Some schools actually choose not to play in the tournament. They make that choice because they can't compete. I would rather see those type of schools play in a non-qualifier division to get a few extra games in and start building a program. This would prevent the 99-5 scores we sometimes see in girls basketball.
 
Ohio needs some type of relegation system, that moves teams up and down by success. If you win the D5 State title you should move up, if you make it to State two years in a row move up. Use some type of RPI rating move the top 5 up and bottom 5 down. There has to be a way to level the field!
Relegation can't work in HS. What if a team has a great class with 7 guys all in the same grade who are the team's top 7 guys? They go to state as juniors....and lose in the semi's . Their senior year they win state. You can't move them up the following year when they are losing their top 7 guys. Relegation works for professional soccer leagues because they don't turn over 75% of their roster each year.
 
I think you are getting caught up in labels.

Instead of D7, we'll call it "non-qualifiers".

Schools that have not fielded competitive teams in a long time from all 4 current divisions. This could be for all sports. These schools would work hard to compete against like opponents without having to worry about getting waxed by an average team. I watch it in alot of sports. It is not good for the OHSAA as a whole. With baseball and softball season starting now, I would rather a school that frequently has 10 novice players drop down to the non-qualifiers and work toward building their program rather than get bludgeoned by 20-30 runs.
What you’re describing is noble, and I agree with the principle. The concept of a postseason geared toward that level of competition really should thought of as being consolation, however.

The problem you’re describing is partly a consequence of the OHSAA half-[blank]ing the mandatory minimum sports concept. “We don’t want schools to only have basketball programs” is a great rule when you’re not the one at a cash-strapped school with no local baseball activity that has to work the ends of the earth to put on a baseball and softball program with kids who have never worn a glove in their life. There isn’t a purpose behind that weird rule if the organization mandating it for postseason eligibility purposes in other sports isn’t going to sponsor, or help form, something worth playing for (or at least provide efficacy to the idea that this is worth building institutional support for in the city.)

Now, I don’t know if that necessarily means all of the sudden John Marshall baseball ought to have an unusually specific pathway to being crowned a ‘state champion’… since state champion confers something that masses were in competition for. Consolation tournament winner? Sure.
Expanding the divisions is the perfect time to make this change. No small school would be hurt by this change. In fact, the path is even easier now for the small schools with less teams in each division. Neither Fort Loramie nor Russia would have to worry about playing Troy as Troy is in a much larger division.
The post of yours was in reply to a comment about promotion/relegation. The promotion/relegation concept at its core is if a team competes at the lowest ladder, and does well enough, they can conceivably just keep climbing the ladder if they continue to do well enough and they meet one of three ends on that ascension: 1) they somehow reach the top ladder of competition, and stay there; 2) they plateau within the higher level of competition but don’t perform poorly enough to revert back to the lower ladder, 3) they just keep alternating between ladders of competition because they’re too good for the lowest and not good enough to sustain their constant promotion back into the higher ladder.

That’s the point I’m getting at. Promotion/relegation doesn’t square well with the 7 division concept because the larger schools are almost always going to have the more competitive baseline vis-a-vis the smaller school. A program like Troy or Piqua could easily vacillate between a hypothetical D2, D3 and D4 in as many years time (3 years), with greater volatility toward improvement in a shorter amount of time, and have a higher competitive floor in D4 than the village 20 minutes away that is deemed too good to play in D5 & D6. That’s where I take objection with the idea we shouldn’t have the smallest schools in D7 — our entire tournament structure is based on the principle that larger schools should not be able to platoon their way through schools that have far less depth potential. And if an aim behind a state tournament and its publicity is to involve public support, it’s best to keep the consistent standard of school size instead of trying to reinvent the wheel with some complicated and confusing structure of “school ‘Y’ with 55 boys is facing off against school ‘Z’ with 210 boys in this division because ‘Z’ can’t hang with similar sized schools.”
I'm hoping you will look at this from a different perspective and see how demoralizing it is for some schools. Without naming them, these schools need a major overhaul to be competitive. Being destroyed every game because their enrollment happens to be fairly large while their skill set in a sport is extremely low.
I get it. It should be a priority. But it shouldn’t be a priority to where we’re muzzling up tournament conventions, at the expense of good programs who face similarly-difficult levels of limitations (due to their school size) in given sports. Do 7 divisions and a separate consolation— but anything more (like 6 divisions and a separate consolation) would just be prioritizing (if not rewarding) the lowest common denominator.
 
I think you are getting caught up in labels.

Instead of D7, we'll call it "non-qualifiers".

Schools that have not fielded competitive teams in a long time from all 4 current divisions. This could be for all sports. These schools would work hard to compete against like opponents without having to worry about getting waxed by an average team. I watch it in alot of sports. It is not good for the OHSAA as a whole. With baseball and softball season starting now, I would rather a school that frequently has 10 novice players drop down to the non-qualifiers and work toward building their program rather than get bludgeoned by 20-30 runs.

Expanding the divisions is the perfect time to make this change. No small school would be hurt by this change. In fact, the path is even easier now for the small schools with less teams in each division. Neither Fort Loramie nor Russia would have to worry about playing Troy as Troy is in a much larger division.

I'm hoping you will look at this from a different perspective and see how demoralizing it is for some schools. Without naming them, these schools need a major overhaul to be competitive. Being destroyed every game because their enrollment happens to be fairly large while their skill set in a sport is extremely low.
I would be all for a fair way to set up divisions by ability rather than enrollment. Or at least making enrollment a smaller piece. My number one objection to a success penalty has always been the next kids up. However, in basketball the small schools that keep popping up out of nowhere to dominate a few years have really changed my mind. I would like to see a placement by powerrating. Sure, that means the bottom schools of a conference may win a state title while the top programs lose their first round games, but conference and local play may become more significantly the focus.

I will not pay to go watch the outcome of many of these state games between teams I know little about other than they are loaded with Onio Red AAU quality athletes. This has ruined basketball for me at the state level. The conference level and most times even the region (SW) is still fine.
I would support D7 being a recreation division.
 
..... our entire tournament structure is based on the principle that larger schools should not be able to platoon their way through schools that have far less depth potential. And if an aim behind a state tournament and its publicity is to involve public support, it’s best to keep the consistent standard of school size instead of trying to reinvent the wheel with some complicated and confusing structure of “school ‘Y’ with 55 boys is facing off against school ‘Z’ with 210 boys in this division because ‘Z’ can’t hang with similar sized schools.”
I always thoroughly enjoy reading your thoughts.

I do believe exactly what you stated here in the quote to which I am replying. The problem has became, especially in basketball, that a good coach is drawing from an area of boys that is essentially invisible to the mathematical compilation of how many students are at his school. The coach can draw from a very large area, an entire city in the case of some coaches, and that gives an unfair advantage in some respects. That is the invisible "depth potential" that can not be numerically calculated.
 
Consolation tournament winner? Sure.
I wouldn't have a consolation tournament champion. What I would do is have a certain number of teams qualify up for the following season (let's say 8 teams). The tournament would then end when 8 teams are left. No champion, no banner to hang. It would give these programs that really struggle a way to build their program without getting their teeth kicked in by vastly superior teams.
 
I’ll probably catch heck for it but AAU and all other travel sports seem to have it figured out with pool and bracket play. There has to be some way to pool (districts?) teams and come out with gold and silver brackets for tournament play within each division. Maybe use RPI to help determine who goes to which bracket. The silver bracket could be a regional, not statewide tournament to reduce travel costs.
 
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Covington and MSML would never come up in a conversation about schools that can't compete.
Assuming he’s talking about football, which I think he is, Covington absolutely a school that hasn’t been able to compete the last three years.
 
I’ll probably catch heck for it but AAU and all other travel sports seem to have it figured out with pool and bracket play. There has to be some way to pool (districts?) teams and come out with gold and silver brackets for tournament play within each division. Maybe use RPI to help determine who goes to which bracket. The silver bracket could be a regional, not statewide tournament to reduce travel costs.
you are absolutely correct. Not sure of their formula but many of the best tournaments we attended would group teams for pool play by ability. A couple of times, I recall the same 4 teams from a given pool sweeping each "division".

They must use a power ranking system to place the teams as perfectly as they do. They (AAU) want quality pool play to allow other teams into the top divisions, where I think what we are talking about is wanting similar teams in similar divisions? It could be done, I think the rub of many small school coaches would be " but why would I want to be less successful? I do not buy the idea many if any coaches would want to go to the toughest competition and risk not advancing. Take Russia for instance, they will more than likely get bounced in the next game playing a top 10 team from any division. Would their coach want to potentially face that level game two of sectionals? I seriously doubt it. It's a little different with Travel ball in the sense your conference and home town pride portions are not factors. So playing up and getting to go home early on Sunday is not near the same as having the kids have their peers and fellow students know they lost in round one. Community support and enthusiasm counts for a lot in my book, and several rounds builds that connectivity to viewing a program as highly successful. Pretending people will give credit for competing in a much greater level I believe is giving fans way too much credit.

I recall one year our rather average D7 football team put two large but poorly functioning schools on the schedule. They lost to both of these D1 programs, and the fellow students were not forgiving of the loss even though the schools were huge comparatively. The players caught it from the fans for not beating winless teams.

That is what I believe would happen with a ranking system, fans simply would not comprehend success in reaching D1 level then not advancing .
 
Everyone gets a participation certificate! So watered down now because of a few that a state title is practically meaningless. Great job Ohio.
 
I think you are getting caught up in labels.

Instead of D7, we'll call it "non-qualifiers".

Schools that have not fielded competitive teams in a long time from all 4 current divisions. This could be for all sports. These schools would work hard to compete against like opponents without having to worry about getting waxed by an average team. I watch it in alot of sports. It is not good for the OHSAA as a whole. With baseball and softball season starting now, I would rather a school that frequently has 10 novice players drop down to the non-qualifiers and work toward building their program rather than get bludgeoned by 20-30 runs.

Expanding the divisions is the perfect time to make this change. No small school would be hurt by this change. In fact, the path is even easier now for the small schools with less teams in each division. Neither Fort Loramie nor Russia would have to worry about playing Troy as Troy is in a much larger division.

I'm hoping you will look at this from a different perspective and see how demoralizing it is for some schools. Without naming them, these schools need a major overhaul to be competitive. Being destroyed every game because their enrollment happens to be fairly large while their skill set in a sport is extremely low.
Exactly. That can provide opportunities for smaller charters, magnets, arts school to have something at least. That’s what the 7th division should be.
 
With the new enrollment base numbers out, and the CB numbers to be out in a month or two,we know more about some teams and hopefully the d7 and d6 might get a break, with Richmond Hts base count at 127 now and hopefully there CB numbers will be the same as last season which was 21 they might get bumped up to d5 ,as I have seen in some divisional count that d6 could be 98 to 142, so d6 can just hope for the best
 
you are absolutely correct. Not sure of their formula but many of the best tournaments we attended would group teams for pool play by ability. A couple of times, I recall the same 4 teams from a given pool sweeping each "division".

They must use a power ranking system to place the teams as perfectly as they do. They (AAU) want quality pool play to allow other teams into the top divisions, where I think what we are talking about is wanting similar teams in similar divisions? It could be done, I think the rub of many small school coaches would be " but why would I want to be less successful? I do not buy the idea many if any coaches would want to go to the toughest competition and risk not advancing. Take Russia for instance, they will more than likely get bounced in the next game playing a top 10 team from any division. Would their coach want to potentially face that level game two of sectionals? I seriously doubt it. It's a little different with Travel ball in the sense your conference and home town pride portions are not factors. So playing up and getting to go home early on Sunday is not near the same as having the kids have their peers and fellow students know they lost in round one. Community support and enthusiasm counts for a lot in my book, and several rounds builds that connectivity to viewing a program as highly successful. Pretending people will give credit for competing in a much greater level I believe is giving fans way too much credit.

I recall one year our rather average D7 football team put two large but poorly functioning schools on the schedule. They lost to both of these D1 programs, and the fellow students were not forgiving of the loss even though the schools were huge comparatively. The players caught it from the fans for not beating winless teams.

That is what I believe would happen with a ranking system, fans simply would not comprehend success in reaching D1 level then not advancing .
Our youth basketball league (CPYBL) creates tournament brackets based on this concept. I've had parents complain to me about the fact that we actually have beat teams of the same caliber to advance. They just want to see us win, even if it means pounding a winless team.
 
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