Northwest Ohio Realignment

I understand that argument, but in the end I do not care. You can either cypher 2 + x = 5 or you can't. You can either write a coherent paragraph or you can't.

When I get the brakes on my car or a toothache fixed I do not care about the social or family conditions of the mechanic or dentist.
But it's easier to do all of those things when you have a parent behind you who cares about your success in school and pushes you to succeed. A lot of these kids in WLS or TPS don't have that privilege because their parents are working their butts off to put food on the table, or sadly, don't care about the welfare of their kids. Teachers can only do so much to help their students succeed, but ultimately it's up to the parents to push for that success.

That's what these tests fail to address, and why EdChoice taking advantage of these test scores also needs to be addressed as well.
 
I get your point now. Your complaint is that testing is not fair to the schools.

I agree, but don't really think that is all that important.

For me the bigger problem is that we are wasting time, effort, and money on standardized lessons and testing which aren't going to change the behavior and success of failing students in our schools.

I think we are a long way from a solution and going in the wrong direction.

And we are way of the topic of this thread.
 
It is starting to sound like if the NLL is not successful in creating this smaller division that Maumee and Napoleon are actively looking to leave.

Also hearing that the BVC has 2 teams looking to get out to a smaller conference. (1 of those teams is NOT Vanlue from what I've heard.)

NWC also has a couple changes on the horizon.

I'd imagine we may see these shortly after basketball is officially complete. Some as late as May.
What teams are looking to leave the NWC?
 
moving catholics away from public’s so students can have better self-esteem issues in sports is one of the softest things ever.

but that’s just how i feel. growing up a wrestler , i don’t care who’s in front of me. i’m taking the whoever or whatever out. even if i’m gonna get hurt trying. it absolutely baffles me how ‘soft’ some people can be. i’m sorry if it’s gonna bother some of you, but if does.. revaluate yourself and ask yourself why i can’t find my way out of a brown wet paper bag.

it just sucks that schools much rather take the easy way instead of getting taught the most important life lessons, LOSING & being DISCIPLINED. i’m not just wrestling i’m talking about, i’m talking about every sport in general.

you learn a lot more facing the best competition & getting beat, then facing crappy teams and winning.

all the whining and b****n about the catholic and public issue has got to stop.
 
I get your point now. Your complaint is that testing is not fair to the schools.

I agree, but don't really think that is all that important.

For me the bigger problem is that we are wasting time, effort, and money on standardized lessons and testing which aren't going to change the behavior and success of failing students in our schools.

I think we are a long way from a solution and going in the wrong direction.

And we are way of the topic of this thread.
I agree, which is also why I say all this testing is for the politicians, but anyway..

are we really going to see earth shattering conference movement or not in northwest ohio haha
 
So I am curious - what if some of these leagues start to hold their current members accountable for their loyalty? Kind of a "are you in, or are you out" scenario? It could well happen.
 
The 1st Amendment concerns of school vouchers center on the separation of church and state. Additionally, the inclusion of parochial schools in voucher programs would violate the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment by diverting public money to private religious schools.

As for public school trying to dodge private schools, it is not about being afraid, it is about being on equal playing fields, When the private schools can recruit and not follow the same set of rules as the public schools, the public schools are not on the same playing field.
 
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Regardless, let's get back on track here can we people?

If the NWC had any schools leave, would have to think that potentially Ada and Bluffton are in play. That or maybe Columbus Grove makes a full time move to the BVC and taking Leipsic with them. Not sure of thoughts on that one, but seems to be a light powderkeg.

Otherwise, I don't see Montpelier leaving the BBC after getting in after all these years, which would trigger the NWOAL/TAAC merger. Only way that would happen is if Montpelier gets an agreement that they can be dual members for all-sports (which means each school plays each other once as part of the new merger league while allowing them to play the BBC round-robin fest which will already account for 14 games of a 22 game schedule when Holgate enters the circuit).
 
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MY FINAL, FINAL PREDICTIONS OF MOVEMENT: I think NB, CR, and Vanlue will be forced at the very least to leave the BVC for football and play everything else or leave completely. CR may be NWCC bound. I also think ADA will leave the NWC. I think they are headed to the NWCC, but I think they should consider the BVC. They have the size to be a decent fit for that league. Last, PH is going to BVC. Don't know if by the fall or not, but this is my guess of where things are headed. I hope whatever happens ends up being good for all.
 
If the NWC had any schools leave, would have to think that potentially Ada and Bluffton are in play. That or maybe Columbus Grove makes a full time move to the BVC and taking Leipsic with them. Not sure of thoughts on that one, but seems to be a light powderkeg.
None of the NWC schools are leaving, no matter how much limajock or other Yappi posters want them to. Grove absolutely will not, it has been an NWC member since it’s founding and now with Leipsic added and paulding gone, it is the central school in the league. Bluffton and Ada have both been members since the early 60’s and would get no benefit of joining the BVC or NWCC that they do not already have in the NWC. Bluffton is the biggest boys enrollment school in the NWC, but only by 1, plus AE and CG are within 20. There wouldn’t be any change to that in BVC and they would be the significantly largest NWCC school. With 12 teams making the playoffs they will never have to worry about good teams missing the playoffs in the NWC. Ada is right in the middle of the league enrollment wise, and with the exception of football in the last 3 years, have always competed for championships in all sports.

The BVC and NWCC do not offer better travel by margins enough to make the jump, they don’t offer any favorable change in the size of schools in the league, they definitely do not offer better facilities, and they don’t have any of the long-standing traditions these schools have in the NWC.

Ada’s football team in the last 3 years was a fluke caused by terrible culture and coaching, and hopefully will be corrected either their new head coach. They still have the enrollment in the school and numbers in their youth programs. Other than that, there is no reason whatsoever to think that any current NWC schools would want out of the league
 
Before USV left the NWC in 2000-2001 season, you have to go back 50 years to see a school leave this conference, and that was because that school was out growing the NWC (Elida). Since its inception there were schools that left but a few of those were because of consolidation (Beaverdam to Bluffton, Gomer to Elida, Forest to Riverdale) Look at the link provided and tell me if the history of this conference looks like an unstable conference.
NWC History – NWC-Sports.com | The Official Site of the Northwest Conference for nwc news, nwc scores and more. (nwc-sports.com)
 
Before USV left the NWC in 2000-2001 season, you have to go back 50 years to see a school leave this conference, and that was because that school was out growing the NWC (Elida). Since its inception there were schools that left but a few of those were because of consolidation (Beaverdam to Bluffton, Gomer to Elida, Forest to Riverdale) Look at the link provided and tell me if the history of this conference looks like an unstable conference.
NWC History – NWC-Sports.com | The Official Site of the Northwest Conference for nwc news, nwc scores and more. (nwc-sports.com)

Think you meant 30 years. But you're right, it's been a stable league, the USV and Perry issues notwithstanding.


Looking at those former members, it always amuses me to see some of the original members of now small school leagues. Shawnee? Elida? OG? Bath? Those all look absolutely crazy now.

On the flip side, imagine North Baltimore trying to compete in the current NWC
 
Think you meant 30 years. But you're right, it's been a stable league, the USV and Perry issues notwithstanding.


Looking at those former members, it always amuses me to see some of the original members of now small school leagues. Shawnee? Elida? OG? Bath? Those all look absolutely crazy now.

On the flip side, imagine North Baltimore trying to compete in the current NWC
I was meaning go back 50 years from today, but yea, the way I said it, it should have been 30years from when USV left. Yea I was laughing myself when I opened that link seeing the schools that used to play in the NWC. Oh and the sad part, I am old enough to remember seeing OG & Bath play in the NWC. ( I was a very young kid but do remember those 2 schools playing NWC games)
 
exactly, what point are you missing or trying to dance around? Those schools are competitive with the best private schools in the state. Economics is an indicator but not a cause. Synergy is the cause. A consistent depth of competition that allows them to compete with the artificial economic of a selective system. Whereas any local private entity even in our smaller population can create that artificial economic, the publics do not have the density to do that. There's not enough of them if they exclude further regions. Findlay, Fremont and Lima bring a dynamic diverse from ours and bring in good talent for a PBurg, an AW (since those seem to be the schools most are selling as objecting to these schools) to learn from through competition. The biggest losers of a pure public league that excludes those TRAC schools would be those hoping to compete beyond the conference.

As I wrote, I believe that for such a small population the best means to compete with the denser districts would be a public-private. Better from a competitive POV. Better from a moral and social POV. Do what you do but drop the pretense of superiority and remember your primary life goal.

Apparently there are some trust violations need mending. Nothing is going to happen to the privates that's not of their selfish actions but no one is in more of a position to survive and excel from that either. To repeat, none of them were throwing "life-lines" to TPS kids. Private school supporters actively lobbied to the cause of reducing funding and opening up ways to grab needed public monies because of their failed private economic system. The closing of TPS sports was to their own benefit, they thought. They didn't realize or care that it would cause the area to lose that synergy that was feeding their programs also, as long as they got their satisfaction of the moment. These schools need to look at the words over their doors and realize they may select which kids they will allow in the building but in higher eyes, they are to be working for ALL kids.

Totally agree - I think when it comes to the big publics wanting to shut the door on the big privates in NWO, the theme is "be careful what you wish for".

Look at the current TCL - since the mass exodus of non-TPS schools, the level of competition from those schools has continued to decline. You can argue social trends and demographics, but you can't deny the impact that primarily competing against a lower standard has had on programs that had (and still have) many talented kids participating. Think "a rising tide lifts all ships".

Toledo is not a big enough metro area to completely segregate the competition at the larger school level - just not enough schools to go around without the privates, and not enough competition without them to battle-test (and gain the points necessary) for the post season (where unless things change at the state level, you still have to compete against privates to win it all).

And I would venture to say that if the big privates are forced to go independent, there will be an INCREASE in talent flowing to those schools, not a decrease. Back in the early 90's during the blue/red heyday of the TCL, TPS got in a pissing match with the voting public over a levy and cancelled fall sports. It worked - the "emergency" levy passed and sports were reinstated, but not before the big privates and non-TPS were forced to schedule out that fall as independents. For SJ, it turned out to be a great move. Sure, there were some long drives, but we played some of the best competition the state had to offer, and it gave us the experience and the points needed to make the playoffs and get the schools first playoff win (you know, back when there were half as many divisions and teams taken per region) - and made a lot of great memories we still laugh about today. I know some of my very talented public school friends were envious - we were playing traditional power schools from ours and other states, playing in D1 college and pro stadiums, and guys were getting looks from the major college level. I'd venture to say for the big privates, if those days become the rule - not the exception, and we see little of local big publics competing directly with big privates (where they both share the stage), you may see more kids desire to go to the big privates and compete on that higher level. The competition level the big privates will enjoy in the regular season will likely make them better post-season competitors as well, furthering the divide in talent, not improving it.
 
Totally agree - I think when it comes to the big publics wanting to shut the door on the big privates in NWO, the theme is "be careful what you wish for".

Look at the current TCL - since the mass exodus of non-TPS schools, the level of competition from those schools has continued to decline. You can argue social trends and demographics, but you can't deny the impact that primarily competing against a lower standard has had on programs that had (and still have) many talented kids participating. Think "a rising tide lifts all ships".
Nonsense.
 
Post above nails this so well. You exclude the private schools and you move them to elite status. They’ll play the best of the best around the state, making it a true sports factory. When the postseason rolls around, good luck
Good luck to Whitmer, Perrysburg, AW, and the other big area schools keeping their kids that are chasing legit D1 scholarships when Central Catholic and St. John's are playing Ignatius, Ed's, and other elite programs around the state. You think it's hard to keep kids from transferring to the private schools now? Just wait until Central Catholic is playing Ignatius or Archbishop Moeller on ESPN
 
That is not completely true. The Supreme Court has established the lemon Test to decide when money given to private institutions is or is not ok

Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639 (2002), was a 5-4 decision of the United States Supreme Court that upheld an Ohio program that used school vouchers. The Court decided that the program did not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment even if the vouchers could be used for private, religious schools.

*** Lemon vs. Kurtzman was about something else. Good to see that someone paid attention in Constitutional law
 
Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639 (2002), was a 5-4 decision of the United States Supreme Court that upheld an Ohio program that used school vouchers. The Court decided that the program did not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment even if the vouchers could be used for private, religious schools.

*** Lemon vs. Kurtzman was about something else. Good to see that someone paid attention in Constitutional law
Not to be that guy, but “ Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), was a case argued before the Supreme Court of the United States. The court ruled in an 8–1 decision that Pennsylvania's Nonpublic Elementary and Secondary Education Act (represented through David Kurtzman) from 1968 was unconstitutional, violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The act allowed the Superintendent of Public Schools to reimburse private schools (mostly Catholic) for the salaries of teachers who taught in these private elementary schools from public textbooks and with public instructional materials.”
So the case directly involved public money going to private schools and what it can and can’t not be used for.
 
Not to be that guy, but “ Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), was a case argued before the Supreme Court of the United States. The court ruled in an 8–1 decision that Pennsylvania's Nonpublic Elementary and Secondary Education Act (represented through David Kurtzman) from 1968 was unconstitutional, violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The act allowed the Superintendent of Public Schools to reimburse private schools (mostly Catholic) for the salaries of teachers who taught in these private elementary schools from public textbooks and with public instructional materials.”
So the case directly involved public money going to private schools and what it can and can’t not be used for.
these cases are two different issues. one being vouchers and the other being the state education superintendent reimbursing catholic school teachers for using public school materials to teach classes is how I read it.
 
these cases are two different issues. one being vouchers and the other being the state education superintendent reimbursing catholic school teachers for using public school materials to teach classes is how I read it.
Concur that one is about vouchers, and the other is just about money. But my understanding is that vouchers were ruled constitutional because of the lemon test. As in the voucher money can go to parochial schools as long as it’s for non religious purposes.
Which getting back to original poster who said it was illegal to give public money to private schools= nope sure not. Vouchers are legal and the lemon test sets the standard for that the money can be used for
 
Totally agree - I think when it comes to the big publics wanting to shut the door on the big privates in NWO, the theme is "be careful what you wish for".

Look at the current TCL - since the mass exodus of non-TPS schools, the level of competition from those schools has continued to decline. You can argue social trends and demographics, but you can't deny the impact that primarily competing against a lower standard has had on programs that had (and still have) many talented kids participating. Think "a rising tide lifts all ships".

Toledo is not a big enough metro area to completely segregate the competition at the larger school level - just not enough schools to go around without the privates, and not enough competition without them to battle-test (and gain the points necessary) for the post season (where unless things change at the state level, you still have to compete against privates to win it all).

And I would venture to say that if the big privates are forced to go independent, there will be an INCREASE in talent flowing to those schools, not a decrease. Back in the early 90's during the blue/red heyday of the TCL, TPS got in a pissing match with the voting public over a levy and cancelled fall sports. It worked - the "emergency" levy passed and sports were reinstated, but not before the big privates and non-TPS were forced to schedule out that fall as independents. For SJ, it turned out to be a great move. Sure, there were some long drives, but we played some of the best competition the state had to offer, and it gave us the experience and the points needed to make the playoffs and get the schools first playoff win (you know, back when there were half as many divisions and teams taken per region) - and made a lot of great memories we still laugh about today. I know some of my very talented public school friends were envious - we were playing traditional power schools from ours and other states, playing in D1 college and pro stadiums, and guys were getting looks from the major college level. I'd venture to say for the big privates, if those days become the rule - not the exception, and we see little of local big publics competing directly with big privates (where they both share the stage), you may see more kids desire to go to the big privates and compete on that higher level. The competition level the big privates will enjoy in the regular season will likely make them better post-season competitors as well, furthering the divide in talent, not improving it.
I get both sides of this story but things are tad different today then when lil' Dave Croci led SJ to their first playoff win.

I have documented before that it was TPS' fault in 1991 to almost cancel their fall sports. The Big 3 and burbs saw a big uptick in kids because of it. The same can be said in 2008-2009 when TPS canceled lower level sports and some varsity sports. Lesson to TPS, do not cut sports, no matter what. However, that was a TPS problem more than anything else.

Today's situation is different than 1991 & 2009. In 1991 the Big 3 were stable from the standpoint that they had a steady influx of kids coming to them on a yearly basis from the Catholic grade schools around town. In 2009 that had changed and although vouchers were in year 3 they were limited and one school was just beginning to take advantage. By 2021 the voucher program has expanded, The Big 3 receives a very small percentage from the few "Catholic" schools that are left, and those "Catholic" schools are actually holding tutorials at local libraries on how to take advantage of the voucher system. In other words, in your day, the Big 3 in Toledo could, for the most part, stand on their own with just a majority Catholic kids. Today, not so much. So, they have gained an advantage and are using it to target the public schools talent. The game, as they say, has definitely changed. Central Catholic would probably be closed if not for vouchers. Throw in a Cardinal Stritch and you'd have two. They outwardly poach top talent.

In 1991 SF & SJ found games with teams like Massillon, Fostoria, Midview and Boardman and there was a far less difference between those two schools and other Catholic's around the state. Today, outside of the first 3-4 games of the season you will not be able to schedule anyone BUT powerhouses and travel 2 to 4 hours to play which is costly. In 1991 you could still schedule local freshman and JV games with NLL and GLL schools. When the TRAC publics join the NLL and they all agree not to schedule with the "Catholic" schools at any level it is going to become a nightmare for private schools. Even those pre-conference 3-4 games to start the season will be a burden because if the NLL decides to boycott you run out of area options quick. This is not 1991, as you celebrate one season. When you have to find multiple opponents in multiple sports and the travel is 2 to 4 hours away it becomes very costly. In order to sustain that cost you will need money and the vouchers only cover a portion of the tuition for most schools as is. This does not even take into account having to play a football schedule that goes something like this...

Detroit Catholic Central
Cleveland Benedictine
Olentangy Orange
Lakewood St. Edward
Cincinnati Elder
Akron Hoban
Massillon
Tol St. Francis
Cleveland St. Ignatius
Tol St. Johns

Is all I can say is you better have depth and talent. Going 5-5 or 4-6 is not going to help either. It is easy going 9-1/10-0 every year when you outdude everyone on your schedule but when you have to face teams with the same talent and depth with better coaching look out.

This was my same problem with the old TCL when there became a gap in competitiveness in the 90's and even more so the 00's and when vouchers started (2006). The Big 3 were a showcase to poach your kids. Once it happens it is tough to correct but CCHS beating the snot out of the local public in football acts like compound interest. They already got 4 of your more talented kids and now they are showcasing them on your very field. It was like watching an abusive one-way relationship. If the playing field was apples to apples or at least close, like it was in 1988 there would not be this problem but when they are actively gaming the system to poach kids from your district at some point as a public district you have to say enough is enough, apply a tunicate, and fight back. After all, the privates are stealing your public dollars and do not have to abide by the same rules. Not to mention the illegal notion that MY property taxes can be used for my neighbor's kid to attend a HS outside of the school district I live in. That is another whole other thread on its own so I digress. ;)

Using the giant Catholic schools like Cleveland St. Ignatius, who still rely on and get a steady influx of Catholic kids, is not an equitable argument either. Toledo's "Catholic" schools, especially TCC, are Catholic in name only and are merely a private institution based on survival. They can still teach Catholicism but they can no longer rely on "Catholic" kids from SJ Point Place (closed), St. Michaels (closed), St. Catherine (closed), Blessed Sacrament, St. Hedwig (closed), and St. Adalbert (closed) to fill their coffers like they used to. Hopefully those old Stranahan/Gallagher and Delp endowments can keep them afloat.

At it's root cause this is 100% a result of the state of Ohio voucher program and the attack on public schools. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 
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